Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 6 hours ago, Wild Bill said: Problematic phrasing there, mate. Rape is rape, motivation and coercion are not material. Even though you mitigate your statement. Now, to take Tyrions experience, as related, he was forced (traumatized?) into getting it up and participating as well... [really? is that possible?] I've always taken this story as some "official story" that Tyrion has about a deeply shameful part of his past. This has been "informed" by my own notion that rape would not be possible for me. I would and could not ever perform that act (so I think). Therefor, Tyrion's relation of the story is more of his "traumatized" self, and perhaps becoming to believe he really did heinous things due to whatever psychosis Tyrion might have. So I have told myself. But... Prior incarnations of this thread make me think... I agree rape is rape. Whatever Tyrion's reasonings behind what he did Tysha was still raped. But if Tyrion were forced then he isn't a rapist - at least not in regards to Tysha. As far as if a male can be forced - I don't know I'm a female - but there are instances of a male being raped by a female IRL which lead me to believe at least some males can be "betrayed" by their man hood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygett Lannister Posted November 3, 2017 Author Share Posted November 3, 2017 6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I agree rape is rape. Whatever Tyrion's reasonings behind what he did Tysha was still raped. But if Tyrion were forced then he isn't a rapist - at least not in regards to Tysha. As far as if a male can be forced - I don't know I'm a female - but there are instances of a male being raped by a female IRL which lead me to believe at least some males can be "betrayed" by their man hood. Just because you enjoy it (can perform) doesn't means you weren't raped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 13 hours ago, Wild Bill said: I've always taken this story as some "official story" that Tyrion has about a deeply shameful part of his past. This has been "informed" by my own notion that rape would not be possible for me. I would and could not ever perform that act (so I think). Therefor, Tyrion's relation of the story is more of his "traumatized" self, and perhaps becoming to believe he really did heinous things due to whatever psychosis Tyrion might have. So I have told myself. But... Prior incarnations of this thread make me think... Well, Tyrion rapes the bedslave in Illyrio's manse and later rapes the bedslave in Selhorys. Sure, Illyrio's bedslave comes to his room, but Tyrion deeply enjoys making her scared and frightened. In fact, initially he doesn't feel like bedding her, but only when he manages to scare the hell out of her does he decide he'll bed her too. This is very disturbing. In Selhorys he pukes, not just from the wine but in self-disgust. The bedslave is again frightened and crying. And yet, he takes her again. The fact that even a self-loathing Tyrion takes particular enjoyment in scaring the living daylight out of a woman he knows has no choice and will be punished and does not want him and then rape them should be evidence enough that he did not talk himself into just believing he raped Tysha, but that he actually did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: Well, Tyrion rapes the bedslave in Illyrio's manse and later rapes the bedslave in Selhorys. Sure, Illyrio's bedslave comes to his room, but Tyrion deeply enjoys making her scared and frightened. In fact, initially he doesn't feel like bedding her, but only when he manages to scare the hell out of her does he decide he'll bed her too. This is very disturbing. In Selhorys he pukes, not just from the wine but in self-disgust. The bedslave is again frightened and crying. And yet, he takes her again. The fact that even a self-loathing Tyrion takes particular enjoyment in scaring the living daylight out of a woman he knows has no choice and will be punished and does not want him and then rape them should be evidence enough that he did not talk himself into just believing he raped Tysha, but that he actually did. Chronic sex offender kind of guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 On 11/1/2017 at 6:39 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: Yes well everything on the forums have been discussed before but if we don't discuss them again we have nothing to discuss. Besides new people bring new ideas & thoughts to the discussion. On 11/1/2017 at 6:41 PM, Wild Bill said: Of course! But new blood comes along and brings up the same old subjects, with just as much interest as in times past. At least there is some life here because of that. (forgetting about the wildly unhinged and, sometimes incestuous, theory-mongering by old timers.) the point was that using the search function makes it easy to pick out gems of a discussion as opposed to going over all of it again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 6 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said: Just because you enjoy it (can perform) doesn't means you weren't raped. Yep that's what I was saying. 4 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said: the point was that using the search function makes it easy to pick out gems of a discussion as opposed to going over all of it again Gotcha. My apologies. 5 hours ago, sweetsunray said: The fact that even a self-loathing Tyrion takes particular enjoyment in scaring the living daylight out of a woman he knows has no choice and will be punished and does not want him and then rape them should be evidence enough that he did not talk himself into just believing he raped Tysha, but that he actually did. I don't think sweetsunray was saying Tyrion talked himself into believing he raped Tysha. He is saying he did rape Tysha & tells the rest of the world he was forced. At least that's how I read it. At any rate Tyrion raping every single woman in Westeros is not evidence of any sort that he raped Tysha. There is some evidence pointing to the fact that he raped her but all the rape of the slaves shows is thay Tyrion is capable of rape. Not that he raped anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 7 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said: the point was that using the search function makes it easy to pick out gems of a discussion as opposed to going over all of it again I'm not likely to search, since the results will likely be noise, given the years and years of posts in the forum. But, point taken, no worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 On 11/2/2017 at 0:18 PM, Banner Without Brothers said: ... With Sansa we get a very similar situation except this time he's coerced with promises of reward (Weinstein anyone?). This time stands up to his father and the rest of his family. Who again try to talk him into raping Sansa and deride him for not doing it. Joffrey even threatens to do the raping for him if he can't handle it himself. I really don't think it matters whether someone is coerced through threats of violence or threats of loss of wealth or anything it's still coercion and definitely not giving consent freely. Male, power-dominance, sexual abuse, might be reaching a tipping point in our society. GRRM, however, is writing about a society that among the elites, women are property and have no control at all. And that dynastic considerations are paramount. And then, soldiers are free to rape all the women-folk of a sacked city, as part of their compensation package, as it were. Not to mention prostitution... I think we can all agree that it is all f'ecked up. To what degree is Tyrion better or worse than his peers? Does it matter (in book universe)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 16 hours ago, Wild Bill said: I'm not likely to search, since the results will likely be noise, given the years and years of posts in the forum. But, point taken, no worries. The noise seems to be because the moderators are not charged with curating the forum. It seems the mods only show up if someone complains or mentions the long term health of GRRM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Exile Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 Tyrion started out a hero of sorts (though one with many flaws all of which have already been mentioned on this thread) but still trying to do the right thing. Like every hero in every story he has to go through a kind of 'death experiece' (literal or methaphorical - in his case: metaphorical), then make a 'journey through the underworld', experiencing many tests there, (some of which the hero in the traditional way of storytelling always fails - just like Tyrion fails some). The metaphorical death experience Tyrion has to undergo is worse than most: it is Tyrion in SoS first losing his position of hand, being condemned to death in an untterly unfair trial for a murder he is innocent of, the woman he loves turning up as one of the main witnesses against him, lying against him and - to top it of - then finds that same woman in the bed of his personal nemesis - the father he rightly hates but also very much and without success always craved to show him some respect. After all this Tyrion is nearly mentally destroyed and cast into the Underworld (again metaphorically) more or less in pieces to be reassembled and now encounters a variety of tests, many of which he fails. That he does fail many of these tests he can be rightly criticized for of course. And I see in this thread that this dark part of Tyrion's story is where some fans start to dislike him. But story-wise it is necessary for the completion of his hero's journey and his further development. The third part of the heroes journey traditionally is the return of the hero from the underworld with some kind of boon he found there and is bringing back to help humanity with. I fully expect Tyrion's journey to include that part too (on GRRM's terms of course which probably means darker and grittier than in some stories, but still). So be consoled: I think its not far-fetched to hope that Tyrion will become more likeable again and more of a force for good than he has been for a while now. My personal issue with Tyrion is that - for my taste - GRRM has overdone it with the 'hero has to pass many tests on his travel through the underworld' trope. The sheer amount of coincidences and failures that happen to Tyrion after he leaves the River Boat in Sothoris just over-stretch the amount of suspension of disbelief I can muster. Less would have been more here IMO. But that may just be me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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