.Alternate Facts

[Nittanian]

3 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Starting at the end, Sarnor didn't rise 2000 years ago. Their civilization is reported to have endured for 2000 years. But it came to an end thousands of years ago.

Remember, the Dothraki destroyed the Sarnori civilization after the Doom (four hundred years ago).

Quote

The fall of the great Sarnori kingdoms took less than a century. Even as the Free Cities of the west became locked in a savage struggle for domination during what became known as the Century of Blood, the grasslands, too, exploded into war. During the years that followed the Doom, the riders of the eastern steppes, hitherto divided into threescore quarrelsome tribes at perpetual war with one another, had finally been united under a single leader, a Dothraki khal called Mengo. (TWOIAF The Grasslands) 

 

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lol no. No, its "A Thousand". Like, a nose, a rock, a single digit. 1. 1000 years. It's been abandoned for 1000 years, at the time of Nymeria, 1000 years ago. That puts it at 2000 years. 

In general, I'm cautious of equating "a thousand years" to "one thousand years". GRRM often uses the former to mean "a long time ago", and he unfortunately does not use the latter. 

[AlaskanSandman]

We dont trust prophecy for a reason, the trees dont see the future. They see now, and what was. That's it. Visions are what people are being shown by some one seeing what's going on now, not in the future. 

So, should we trust the 3 heads of the dragon? Azor Ahai reborn?

Yes and No. I've actually covered this else where a while ago. It's true, but not, as i believe they are visions sent by the Night's King or Great Other (Who ever is leading them, or what ever you wanna call him) to guide people into his plan. He wan'ts to break the curse against him, and he's gonna do it through Daenery's child with an undead Jon. This is when i believe Jon will have to kill Daenerys. The moment the "Great Other" Skinchanges the "never born" soulless child. His out of the curse, and back to real power and rule. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

7 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

Remember, the Dothraki destroyed the Sarnori civilization after the Doom (four hundred years ago).

 

In general, I'm cautious of equating "a thousand years" to "one thousand years". GRRM often uses the former to mean "a long time ago", and he unfortunately does not use the latter. 

Ah yes, of course. I forgot their exact end date. So they lasted  for 2000 years, and their last remnant was wiped out by the Dothraki maybe 300 years ago.

[AlaskanSandman]

13 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

Remember, the Dothraki destroyed the Sarnori civilization after the Doom (four hundred years ago).

 

In general, I'm cautious of equating "a thousand years" to "one thousand years". GRRM often uses the former to mean "a long time ago", and he unfortunately does not use the latter. 

I realize this is an active device he uses to cast doubt on any other time he does use 1000 year mark. I will come back and add in all the intended quotes that got deleted in the OG post that show each of these usages and why such im gathering them into this new hypothetical time-line.

Which in and of it self gives more answers IMO than alot of theories i've seen.

Take Hard home for example. Once you can see all the other things happening at that same time, it's kind of hard to deny Valyria's possibly involvement in destroying Hardhome for nearly becoming the first city beyond the Wall. With House Frey popping up to control the Neck, with even House Stark having to go through pains just to pass. Then the events in the following centuries just become more clear having things laid out in this more basic visual. Valyria's Doom following shortly after and the swords entering Westeros.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Ah yes, of course. I forgot their exact end date. So they lasted  for 2000 years, and their last remnant was wiped out by the Dothraki maybe 300 years ago.

This is the rough assumption im working off of.

With the Sarnori's founder being Huzhor Amai, son of the last fisher queen, who is 

Azor Ahai with Nissa Nissa, who's father was of the Empire of the Dawn (Bloodstone Emperor and Amethyst Empress), who is Hugor of the Hill. Father of the Faith of the Seven, and the Church of Starry Wisdom

[AlaskanSandman]

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

2000 years ago - 5th and last. Ghiscari war

                            Andal Invasion of Vale and Alyssa Arryn

 

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

1300 - Andals take Old Town and Hightowers, bringing Glass Candles with them and Exiling House Manderly

             Falcon Crown made and first worn by Ser Artys Arryn (Crowned in Old Town?)

This i found strange at first. Until i remembered that the Winged Knight wed a COTF and likely practiced blood magic to extend his life. Yes i think the Winged Knight and Ser Artys are the same. This time line would explain why they are the same.

Edit- No Artys doesn't have to be crowned in Old Town, but given the dates between when he took the Vale and when his crown was created (not till the Andal had taken Old Town), i place his crowning in Old Town as he seems to have led the Andals the whole way.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I don't agree that the Sarnori civilization lasted  only two thousand years, in that case. There are too many dates based on written records that push the Ghiscari/Valyrian wars back to thousands of years before that, and if Sarnor was indeed a contemporary civilization, involved in those wars, then they clearly existed for closer to 5000 years at least.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I don't agree that the Sarnori civilization lasted  only two thousand years, in that case. There are too many dates based on written records that push the Ghiscari/Valyrian wars back to thousands of years before that, and if Sarnor was indeed a contemporary civilization, involved in those wars, then they clearly existed for closer to 5000 years at least.

No theres not, not really. There's the accounts of Maester Yandel, and Daenerys, if her memory serves her correct. Which was all taught to her by Viserys, who was taught by a Maester. Sooooo, yea, we only have Maester accounts.

[Free Northman Reborn]

6 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

No theres not, not really. There's the accounts of Maester Yandel, and Daenerys, if her memory serves her correct. Which was all taught to her by Viserys, who was taught by a Maester. Sooooo, yea, we only have Maester accounts.

Oh boy. If you ignore all of the World of Ice and Fire dates just because they originate from Master Yandel, I'm afraid we cannot have a constructive discussion.

Martin has made it clear that while the dates may be a bit muddled, the Long Night was much farther in the past than a mere 2000 years ago. He once stated that the legendary figures of the Long Night are as far removed from the current era as Noah was from us. We are not talking about a mere 2000 years here.

EDIT

Here is the quote:

Question: If time is permitting would you mind giving a brief description on how the wall was constructed?

Martin:

Much of those details are lost in the mists of time and legend. No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.

But one thing I will say, for what it's worth -- more than ice went into the raising of the Wall. Remember, these are =fantasy= novels.

[AlaskanSandman]

Why should I? When he discredits Others and paints the Lannisters as saints in the sacking of K.L., and the accounts of other characters differ with his, including Maester Denestan. No, ill continue distrusting Yandel, no offense Elio

[TheSamsa]

 

First, I want to note that the very random style, formating and sizes makes it really hard to follow you. It would be nice if you'd try to make it easier to read.

Second, I also have a hard time to grasp what you actually want to say. Really just the basic statement that you want to communicate.

So I'll am going to ask: You want to say the timelines that especially maesters postulate are wrong, and the history connected to it differs from what actually happened, right?

Therefore you recreated what really happened by means of the corrected timeline, also right?

 

And now the one thing that jumped into my eye as I read this thread:

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

If any one wants a quick narrative.

Garth was the God on Earth

Two of his sons went to war for their sister and her throne. 

This set off the curse placed on their father Garth, effecting the Grey King. (Ghis?)

The Andals were the original Valyrians before the Empire of the Dawn mixed into them giving some dragons (Though some room to argue they were the ghiscari as the Order of the Greenhand does)

The curse is only activated by ruling all 9 kingdoms, hence the wall being built and no kings or cities North of the Wall, hence Valyria torching Hardhome.

The Others though, never fully defeated, still exist beyond the Wall.

Jon, and Aegon are the current brothers at war for their sister/throne, Daenerys.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Huh? Did you actually read the thread?

Garth= God on Earth = Life (Fire), Death (Ice), and Fertility.

his children?

The Grey King= Salt King, Old Way, Walrus men tribes, Ice  (Jon)

Durran (Azor)= Rock King, New Way, Antler Men tribes, Fire  (Aegon)

Nissa Nissa (Daenerys)= Fertility, Mother of Dragons. (Daenerys)

(All children of Rhaegar, thus our two brothers and sister.)

This is hidden in his legend of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield and him constantly paired with Aemon the Dragon Knight, and was is said of Serwyn in comparison to Aemon. That's the narrative.

Well I think it collapses, at least for one part, because Daeneris is Rhaegars Sister, not his Daughter. So there is no Fight between siblings, it kind of kills the narrative you suggest.

Or am I missing something?

[Jon Fossoway]

So many mushrooms around here.

Sandman, you're really good at prestonite fiction. No offense intended. It takes talent to mix it up and come out with something neat and new.

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, TheSamsa said:

 

First, I want to note that the very random style, formating and sizes makes it really hard to follow you. It would be nice if you'd try to make it easier to read.

Second, I also have a hard time to grasp what you actually want to say. Really just the basic statement that you want to communicate.

So I'll am going to ask: You want to say the timelines that especially maesters postulate are wrong, and the history connected to it differs from what actually happened, right?

Therefore you recreated what really happened by means of the corrected timeline, also right?

 

And now the one thing that jumped into my eye as I read this thread:

Well I think it collapses, at least for one part, because Daeneris is Rhaegars Sister, not his Daughter. So there is no Fight between siblings, it kind of kills the narrative you suggest.

Or am I missing something?

Well im not done yet and had to restart cause it deleted most everything, i apologize and will finish it soon as i can.

As far as what your missing?

An on going debate about Dany's parentage. Im of the camp that believes she is the child of Rhaegar who dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal. Daenerys is the Dayne Heiress.

the-dayne-heiress-daenerys/

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

So many mushrooms around here.

Sandman, you're really good at prestonite fiction. No offense intended. It takes talent to mix it up and come out with something neat and new.

Hahah possibly. At least it's new though right?  

[TheSamsa]

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well im not done yet and had to restart cause it deleted most everything, i apologize and will finish it soon as i can.

As far as what your missing?

An on going debate about Dany's parentage. Im of the camp that believes she is the child of Rhaegar who dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal. Daenerys is the Dayne Heiress.

the-dayne-heiress-daenerys/

I am curious how you will be able to reason Daenerys is Rhaegars and Asharas child. Since Ashara died in 283 and Daenerys was born 284.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

19 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Aemon was of course, A knight in the Kingsguard and brother to the Targaryen King, both loved their sister Naerys.

If Aegon IV loved Naerys he had a strange way of showing it.

[AlaskanSandman]

59 minutes ago, TheSamsa said:

I am curious how you will be able to reason Daenerys is Rhaegars and Asharas child. Since Ashara died in 283 and Daenerys was born 284.

Ill wait while you find me the quotes for those dates

[AlaskanSandman]

40 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

If Aegon IV loved Naerys he had a strange way of showing it.

Maybe, irregardless though, she was Aegon's wife, whom Aemon loved.

[AlaskanSandman]

I just updated most the quotes and added a few extra's, like the one about House Blackwood and House Bracken.

As suggested in that quote, the Andal Invasion was 2000 years ago, and the Bracken vs Blackwood feud is either 500years or 100 years older than that.  Which may line up with the event's of Gendal and Gorne. Which may all relate to the Ghiscari vs Valyrian war. 

Perhaps 3000 years ago is when the war of the Long Night started, lasting 1000 yearsish till the Andals arrive 2000 years ago, and Dawn is forged, along with the Inner defense walls of Winterfell going up.

This is either alot of coincidence and sheer tinfoil, or it marks the start of the war. Given how the Grey King and Durran lived for 1000 years it is said, this would roughly fill the appropriate time frame given.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Maybe, irregardless though, she was Aegon's wife, whom Aemon loved.

I understand, but I really wouldn't put it at a "maybe" though. Aegon IV treated Naerys like absolute crap. He dishonored her by cheating on her with every girl that caught his eye. The text also suggests he was rough with her to the point of physically hurting her in and out of the bedroom.

In his last years, Aegon claimed to have slept with over nine hundred women(the exact number eluded him), but that he only ever truly loved nine. (Queen Naerys, his sister, was not counted among them).

Queen Naerys-the one woman who Aegon IV bedded in whom he took no pleasure-was pious and gentle and frail, and all these things the king disliked.

After Naerys fell pregnant and almost died in 161, King Baelor sent Aegon to Braavos on a diplomatic mission. Accounts of the time suggest it was an excuse to make certain Aegon left Naerys alone as she recovered from a failed childbirth. 

Not exactly the way you treat someone you love.  Whether or not it has any bearing on your theory, you can't really claim Aegon IV had any love for Naerys, nor her him. So lets change that "maybe" to a no, Aegon IV did not love Naerys.