The Pita Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I actually find the OP offensive. It shows a lack of any understanding into what makes me like Jaime, a lack of understanding into women (although I'm not much better at that), and a lack of understanding in general about the population on the boards. The most Jaime loving person in the boards, Daemrion, I believe, is a man. I get the feeling I'm a close number two, though I won't contest the title, because I haven't been active on these parts of the forum much. The reason people like Jaime is because we got a book that's pretty much about him, Cersei, and Sansa (I think it's part of the reason why AFFC gets the most hate-it focuses on the least popular characters, except for Catelyn and Theon, but those are with pretty good reason. They're dead). People have started liking Sansa as well since the book came out, and some (like me) have even begun to consider Cersei a not-completely-evil character. People like Jaime because you can claim at once that he's the most moral and the most amoral character in the series. He's thrown a child out of a window, he's saved a city from being blown into bits. He's fucked his sister, he's always been loyal to his family. That's it, I have to run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightwater Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 To be sure, I am rather fond of Brienne and Jaime both, but "slave-owning" is a tiresome and absurd slander to keep hearing against Dany. Greyworm kept his unpleasant name because: "It is a lucky name. The name this one was born to was accursed. That was the name he had when he taken for a slave. But Grey Worm is the name this one drew on the day Daenerys Stormborn set him free." Slave-owning is simply a baseless charge against her. Well just to clarify, I was only playing devil's advocate. I actually agree with you! Mind you Daenerys is not a character I like very much, but not because I think she's evil, I just don't enjoy reading her chapter POV's. ~~ I also want to clarify for the subject in general, that while I love Jaime, I don't mean that I love his personality. There's no doubt that he's an arrogant, vicious jerk and those are not qualities to be admired. I mean I love George R.R. Martin's character development in Jaime. I love to write myself, so I am in awe of what Martin created as his story arc. It's different than actually "loving" or "liking" the person himself. It's the character portrayal of Jaime that I love. First of all, he's not real. If he was real, I wouldn't want anything to do with him! I certainly wouldn't want to talk with him personally and try and get inside his head. I do, however, have compassion for him, real or not, liking his personality or not, because I believe in redemption and am personally moved by the struggle to achieve it. If he does achieve it, then probably I will love him as himself. Really I don't understand why Jaime is so harshly criticized on these boards. All of the characters I can think of right now are actually very dark or deformed in some way. Martin is a very cold and cynical author to me, the world he created is bleak and savage. And he spares no one in the book his harsh reality, he even takes a character like Brienne, who we are to believe is good and virtuous, and almost savagely deforms her physical appearance and has her fall in love with one of his darkest characters in the book, Jaime, who arguably has treated her with the most cruelty. If we are going to talk about liking characters based on their good judgement and moral virues.. who on that earth is there to like? Jaime aside, why do you like any character in the book? I sometimes ask myself when reading the books, oh my God, why do I like reading about these people and this world? Am I totally morally depraved?? I had these same thoughts while reading Rohinton Mistry's "A Fine Balance". Really heartbreaking and brutal life portrayed by some tormented characters.. And one of the greatest novels I've ever read. Inspiring, but it's a very harsh kind of inspiration and leaves you feeling crushed instead of elated. Am I dark and cynical? Or just looking for answers in the hard reality of the often short and brutal lives of humans. I don't know. Maybe I am just cynical, I bet no one will even respond to my queries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Dawn Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Jaime is an asshole. That's always interesting. And I like him for it. He reminds me of myself, minus the whole 'one woman' deal. Also he's extremely well written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemrion Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Slave-owning is simply a baseless charge against her. No it is not. Form does not equal substance. The most Jaime loving person in the boards, Daemrion, I believe, is a man. I'm a guy, and not gay. That said, I am a sucker for a good redemption story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Spidey Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 D, UYP, may I be granted the permission to put up a title like yours? I love Jaime, he is as close to me as it gets, among the characters from the series (well, perhaps he is an improved version). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Winged Shadow Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 My feelings on Jaime has definetly changed since AGoT. Never liked him much at the start, but my feelings about him definetly softened. And if i had to choose between like and hate, i would have to go like. But there is two things i can never forgive him for: 1. throwing bran off. I wouldn't have cared if it was some adult, even one i liked. But throwing a child off a tower is definetly unforgivable in my book. And i dun even like Bran. 2. Lying to Tyrion about Tysha. But this one is mainly because how things turned out for Tysha. The incest never bothered me since it was consentual(sp?), and kingslaying is meh. Overall, he is a great read and definetly one of the top chapters in the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-law Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 No it is not. Form does not equal substance. Yes it is. Words have literal meanings. If you want to dilute the meaning of the word "slave" into something else entirely, then Robb Stark is a slave-owner too; Greatjon Umber and Maege Mormont and all his bannermen are his slaves. They have little practical ability to legally leave his service. Roose Bolton is thus a fugitive slave. Much better to use the real definition. Dany explicitly states that her free-men are not slaves; they agree that they are not slaves. Not much room for debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzanth Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Are there lots of guys posting here who also converted to raging Jaime fans after reading his POV chapters? *raises hand* I think it's foolish to make sweeping generalisations. QFT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbigski Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I like Jaime and I'm a man. Probably mostly because of his wit. The differences between Jaime and Loras Tyrell are slight on the superficials. Both are priveleged and handsome and talented warriors. But Jaime is much more funny, probably because he's disillusioned and sardonic. Granted that he's not as witty as his brother, but I can relate to the derision he holds for the truly stupid, like Gatehouse Ami and whichever Frey he dismisses from the siege of Riverrun. Whereas Loras is basically a vain idiot. Though obviously Jaime is written as one of the villians in AGoT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kawnliee Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Jaime is one of my favorite characters, and I'm a guy. I used to despise Jaime back before we got his POV chapters, and now, he's probably my #3 favorite character (after Tyrion and Littlefinger). I like Jaime because I enjoy reading about grey characters who are sympathetic, but aren't necessarily Noble and Pure and Heroic, Always. Jaime has done some terrible things, certainly, but then, so have most of the characters in ASoIaF. Once we see his reasoning behind the things that he has done, we can see Jaime's good qualities, while before we could only see his bad qualities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceWolf Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 My feelings on Jaime has definetly changed since AGoT. Never liked him much at the start, but my feelings about him definetly softened. And if i had to choose between like and hate, i would have to go like. But there is two things i can never forgive him for: 1. throwing bran off. I wouldn't have cared if it was some adult, even one i liked. But throwing a child off a tower is definetly unforgivable in my book. And i dun even like Bran. 2. Lying to Tyrion about Tysha. But this one is mainly because how things turned out for Tysha. The incest never bothered me since it was consentual(sp?), and kingslaying is meh. Overall, he is a great read and definetly one of the top chapters in the series. What does "meh" mean? Thanks IceWolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raymond III Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 A vocalization that would normally be accompanied by a shrug; expresses the user's willingness to look past something (in this case kingslaying) in view of other conditions (in this case, Jaime's other redeeming features). It's not a real word, but has gained currency in a fashion similar to the Simpsons inspired 'd'oh!'. The word originated as my initials. It is known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shevchenko65 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I'm assuming meh = i don't really care or i'm willing to forget about it. I started to like Jaime a lot too. In AFFC his and Arya's were the only chapters I really looked forward too. Cersei is just stupidly paranoid who I don't think I can ever like, and I am very glad to see her and Jaime grow apart. Sam is sympathetic but also very annoying, it's one thing to be a coward and another to advertise. Speaking of which, you'd think after all his time on at NW, and being out in the forest for how long, he would lose a few lbs. And those stairs to the top of a 700 ft wall, he had to climb those a couple of times at least. Cmon he should of lost a few lbs, its not like they serve donuts on the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceWolf Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Thanks people. I have went from Jamiehater to Jamiefan and I am a straight male. Jamie's very well written and more importantly, possibly, he's funny as hell. He reminds me of the "House" character on American tv. And yes, shevchenko65, I agreee. Sam should have lost wieght while he was in the wildernesss. Sam should also lose weight just being being the NW, he's getting by on venison stew and biscuits, same as the others, no donuts at castle Black. I mean I assume he has to take sword and archery practice same as the others even though he's Mormont's secretary. IceWolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siyrean Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 i don't really like Jamie, i like reading his chapters and find him amusing but i still think he's an ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Winged Shadow Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 What does "meh" mean? Thanks IceWolf as someone said already 'meh' = 'shrug' or 'something that doesnt bother me' etc Speaking of which, you'd think after all his time on at NW, and being out in the forest for how long, he would lose a few lbs. And those stairs to the top of a 700 ft wall, he had to climb those a couple of times at least. Cmon he should of lost a few lbs, its not like they serve donuts on the Wall. Sam should have lost wieght while he was in the wildernesss. Sam has the 'fat gene'. It is known Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higgins Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I wasn't a big Jaime fan before he got his POV. After getting to see inside his head and find some justifications for what he did.. and especially after seeing him starting to change for real, then I started liking him. His struggling with himself over things, his whole thought process gripped me. His sense of humor was an added bonus. His good looks had nothing to do with it. I'm a big Tyrion fan and he wouldn't even come close to being called good looking, would he? I'm utterly confused when I see the "redemption thing" mentioned. Okay, you didn't do it right now, but I've seen it a lot. So, I'm asking... Losing the hand and not being able to fight aside... How the hell is Jaime changed (or on his way to being changed)? The reader's opinion on him changed, not Jaime himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 His attitude towards Brienne isn't consonant with his usual attitude towards women, and at the end of Storm of Swords he gives her a sword and sends her off to try to fulfill the promises they both made to Catelyn about her daughters. That's not quite like the Kingslayer we all know and hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higgins Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I don't recall any implication that his respect and trust would have been impossible to earn before becoming a POV character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackfish Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Hrmm, well yeah I think the whole girls-loving-the-assholes thing is commonly seen in a lot of fan communities, not sure there isn't a male equivalent though. And I think, as the thread proves, the OP grossly underestimates the number of Jaime's male fans. Asshole or not, his arc is textbook entertainment. I still believe without Catelyns, Briennes and Cerceis insights and attraction to him he would be not half as interesting. If you cant handle my opinion call me crackpot! lol. Sometimes its diffulcult to hear something thats simple and obvious, we all want to be complex and brooding. I think it's a bit off to say this is because of some Alpha Female phenomenon. Jaime was also seen through the lens of Ned's opinion as well, and Tyrion's, and I think that has to be mentioned too. It's not that he was reacted to by females, it's that he was reacted to by all sorts of different characters, some on this side and some on that side, in all sorts of different ways before we finally got his POV. It's just an inherently dramatic fictional narrative thing to do, everyone's talking about someone and then finally that person talks for themselves. He came in at exactly the right time with exactly the right moral conundrum into exactly the right political situation for his story to be, again, pure entertainment, it entertains our interest. And yes, I would say for sure that Jaime is that kind of guy that women want and men want to be, that doesn't mean it's literally true but we can all peg him as That Guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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