Debuts and Hype

[Larry.]

Arthmail, you pretty much summed up my worries. And that's what it is worries, something that I suspect might be something developing via anecdotal evidence, but not something that I have researched (to remind a few that I've said multiple times comments like "I'm not for sure" or "I don't know, but..."), outside of noting some parallels with some of my readings like E.P. Thompson's [i]Customs in Common[/i] from a decade ago.

But speaking of anecdotal evidence on education, my maternal grandmother (who's 85) grew up in a very small rural town about 60 miles west of Nashville, TN. She graduated from high school, could read (and to a degree) speak French as well as English, and was quite familiar with Dryden, Milton, and other poets that are rarely studied before university today. Her husband was the same way. Neither attended university, although my grandfather did receive technical training after WWII on how to fix television sets. I mention them because 65-70 years ago,that was close to the norm for [i]public[/i] secondary education here in TN, and my home state isn't exactly known as a hotbed for education, despite Nashville being known as "the Athens of the South" for its many fine universities.

Fast-forward to the present. I have been a teacher, off and on, for 9 years now, second-generation. Unlike most here, I have taught English, literature, and history courses, from the middle school to community college levels. I mention all of this not to puff myself up (I don't need that and Adam, if you had read what I said more carefully, you would have realized that I brought that up only to note that my career path influences my opinions, nothing else but that, as I do know there are quite a few highly-educated people here), but to note that I have a past personal history with this. For example, at my latest teaching position, I assigned a small freshman class Edgar Allan Poe's "The Cask of Amontillado." When I was in school, it was one of my class's favorite readings in 9th grade. Almost 20 years later, I had to explain almost every fifth word to the students, two of whom scored above-average on their WIAT-IIs. They complained of the language being "difficult" and they didn't "get it." I ended up pantomining it, using voice inflections and paralanguage to get the essence of the plot across to them. It was as though Poe were untranslated Chaucer.

I love Poe and I know a great many still do. But if what I have experienced is the norm (and from numerous talks with other teachers, it is), then there is the very real risk of such stories being lost to "language difficulties." Perhaps it is inevitable, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. So yes, there are quite a few reasons why I'm uneasy about the possibility of cultural traditions and heritages being lost. Nothing others have stated here has convinced me otherwise; not that I'm seeking to convince anybody of anything, other than I'm personally concerned.

"Don't trust anyone over 30." "The voice of a new generation." "Hope I die before I'm old." - familiar slogans, huh? Commercialized now, imbedded some might claim. There wasn't much in the way of a "youth culture" before the post-WWII era. There certainly weren't "tweeners" until the generation after mine. The whys of these cultural (they are not biological) developments is hard to trace and I've read conflicting reasons, but the possible effects is worrisome, perhaps because of my own aging.

And as for the "cult of the new," let's see...how long should one keep a career/job? How long until a new phone? How long until something is considered to be "obsolete?" Why is the US government hell-bent on "stimulus packages"? How long until the average car begins to break down, especially when compared to 30-40 years ago? Who knows best, the just-maturing or the graying generations? When does a story become "dated"? When does a book's language begin to be "archaic" or "out of touch with the times"? When does the "shininess" fade and/or rust? How much time do authors have to rise from the midlist before being dropped by publishers? What drives over 75% of book sales? Is the "back catalog" becoming harder or easier to keep in stock in stores? Why are there more plastic surgeries being performed today for those under the age of 30?

That's just the tip of the iceberg. Throw it all away and buy, buy, consume mo'fo more, more, more! Get the shiny new toy of the week! That old thing is too "complicated," too "out of touch," too "not fittin' in with the times," bro!

Perhaps the above is an exaggeration or a distortion to a point, but can we deny these are the messages being transmitted to the younger generations? That is what I mean by the "cult of the new" or by "disposable culture." Something "new" is a neutral entity; it could accrue value as it develops/expands over time, or it could end up in the bargain bin in less than a year. Placing such an overt value on something because it is "new" to the exclusion of also valuing what has developed over time, I dunno...makes me quite uneasy.

[Werthead]

[quote name='Dylanfanatic' post='1371658' date='May 27 2008, 03.25']Perhaps the above is an exaggeration or a distortion to a point, but can we deny these are the messages being transmitted to the younger generations? That is what I mean by the "cult of the new" or by "disposable culture." Something "new" is a neutral entity; it could accrue value as it develops/expands over time, or it could end up in the bargain bin in less than a year. Placing such an overt value on something because it is "new" to the exclusion of also valuing what has developed over time, I dunno...makes me quite uneasy.[/quote]

But no-one has done this. That SFFWorld thread simply asked, "What's the big new thing - if any - coming out this year?" Not, "Jesus Christ! Tell me something good is coming out or I'll have no choice but to go read Mervyn Peake, THE HORROR!"

I think there is rather substantial overreaction going on here. I remember ten years ago people decrying the fact that certain authors were out of print (Alfred Bester being a case in point) and in fact many of those authors are now back in print and easier to find than ever before. I'd wager more of Dick or LeGuin's books are in print now than ever before. I really don't see such a simple question being asked as being indicitive of the impending disappearance of any literature more than five years old or something.

[Xray the Enforcer]

Larry, I am seeing a lot of "you people" type of rhetoric in your post, and precious little data aside from a general wave at advertising slogans and the wheezings from 40-year-old rock songs. I want data, not anecdotes. I want proof that our society is, in fact, collapsing because one class isn't down with Edgar Allen Poe. Unfortunately, all I see is a rant against "the kids these days," which is one of the most timeless complaints going.

[salinea]

If you worry about the state of language Dylan, I advice you to follow the [url="http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/"]Language Log blog[/url]. It's handled by a team of Linguists and they talk about the issues frequently. You'll be surprise to learn, they don't seem worried about English, but some languages such as spoken by small ethnic minorities are dying out all over the place. Now, that's the cultural heritage at risk of disapearance. Not SFF lit written by dead (or not) white males.

I agree there's a culture of youth worship going on, but I don't think it's got a real impact on cultural transmission right now. You'll have to bring in more than anecdotal evidence to say that.

[Shryke]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1371663' date='May 26 2008, 21.33']But no-one has done this. That SFFWorld thread simply asked, "What's the big new thing - if any - coming out this year?" Not, "Jesus Christ! Tell me something good is coming out or I'll have no choice but to go read Mervyn Peake, THE HORROR!"

I think there is rather substantial overreaction going on here. I remember ten years ago people decrying the fact that certain authors were out of print (Alfred Bester being a case in point) and in fact many of those authors are now back in print and easier to find than ever before. I'd wager more of Dick or LeGuin's books are in print now than ever before. I really don't see such a simple question being asked as being indicitive of the impending disappearance of any literature more than five years old or something.[/quote]

In fact, the internet age, I think, can only HELP older works. Once somethings out of copyright, you can throw it up on the net, and ANYONE can find it in minutes if their looking.

If E-readers ever actually hit it off, it'll be even better.


Anyway, the "Cult of the New" quite simply isn't anything new. It's been around forever.

Part of the problem, I think, is what Loon was talking about though. We're trying to teach kids to read and analyze classics without first teaching them to ENJOY READING.

Of course, much of THAT must begin at home.

[Werthead]

[quote name='Etrangere' post='1371694' date='May 27 2008, 03.52']You'll be surprise to learn, they don't seem worried about English, but some languages such as spoken by small ethnic minorities are dying out all over the place.[/quote]

And, although this is OT, but then so has been half the thread ( ;) ) some languages (such as Welsh and Irish) are making big comebacks, so even that downward trend isn't universal.

[Xray the Enforcer]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1371701' date='May 26 2008, 22.57']And, although this is OT, but then so has been half the thread ( ;) ) some languages (such as Welsh and Irish) are making big comebacks, so even that downward trend isn't universal.[/quote]

That's just because it's so [i]satisfying[/i] to tweak the noses of the English. :P

[Werthead]

[quote name='Xray the Enforcer' post='1371705' date='May 27 2008, 03.59']That's just because it's so [i]satisfying[/i] to tweak the noses of the English. :P[/quote]

I certainly suspect that's why some twisted American linguist stole the 'u's from half the words in the English language. Give them back, goddamnit!

[Xray the Enforcer]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1371708' date='May 26 2008, 22.01']I certainly suspect that's why some twisted American linguist stole the 'u's from half the words in the English language. Give them back, goddamnit![/quote]

*tries very hard to refrain from making a "cunning linguist" joke*

/FAIL\

[Werthead]

[quote name='Xray the Enforcer' post='1371709' date='May 27 2008, 04.02']*tries very hard to refrain from making a "cunning linguist" joke*

/FAIL\[/quote]

"You have successfully rolled a 20 to hit with the +1 Sword of Obvious!"

:D

[Shryke]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1371708' date='May 26 2008, 22.01']I certainly suspect that's why some twisted American linguist stole the 'u's from half the words in the English language. Give them back, goddamnit![/quote]

That's what the Boston Tea Party was REALLY all about.

[Xray the Enforcer]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1371710' date='May 26 2008, 22.05']"You have successfully rolled a 20 to hit with the +1 Sword of Obvious!"

:D[/quote]


[quote name='Shryke' post='1371711' date='May 26 2008, 22.05']That's what the Boston Tea Party was REALLY all about.[/quote]

:rofl:

[Werthead]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1371711' date='May 27 2008, 04.05']That's what the Boston Tea Party was REALLY all about.[/quote]

The two parties had nearly settled their differences when someone ill-advisedly suggested a game of scrabble. Things were fine until Samuel Adams tried to spell "HONOURABLY" without the U and the English captain objected. That's when the fires of Revolution truly started burning.

[Xray the Enforcer]

I love how this thread started as a legitimate comment on the value of debut novels, and has metastasized into [i]The Decline And Fall of Western Civilization[/i].

[Angalin]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1371700' date='May 26 2008, 21.57']Part of the problem, I think, is what Loon was talking about though. We're trying to teach kids to read and analyze classics without first teaching them to ENJOY READING.[/quote]
And, thinking of a thread over in GC last week, could they be taught some basic grammar while we're at it? ;)

[quote name='Werthead' post='1371721' date='May 26 2008, 22.12']The two parties had nearly settled their differences when someone ill-advisedly suggested a game of scrabble. Things were fine until Samuel Adams tried to spell "HONOURABLY" without the U and the English captain objected. That's when the fires of Revolution truly started burning.[/quote]
Sam Adams only left out the U because he'd run out of tiles, so he was trying it on. A bingo in scrabble is no joking matter, let me assure you! :P

[Angalin]

And on the subject of debut novels: well, someone has to write 'em, and someone has to publish 'em, and they'd both like someone else to buy 'em. :) If the book is still selling in fifty years, so much the better for the author's estate, no? DF's concerns, certainly at the top of this page, seem to be more about the present state of education than whether or not the next book I buy will be backlist or a new trade hardcover. (FYI: the last book I bought was a re-issue of Jilly Cooper's [i]Rivals[/i]. ;))

[Dark Wolf]

[quote name='Werthead' post='1371441' date='May 27 2008, 00.49']There was a comment on SFFWorld that made me think of this. Someone over there seemed staggered, nay insulted, by the idea that people were being recommended to go try out Peter F. Hamilton, the 'new master of space opera', and not EE 'Doc' Smith, who 'created space opera'. His argument was you have to try the classics before trying the new stuff.

The flaw in his argument is that no-one in their right mind reads and enjoys Smith now. It's horrendously dated and Smith was a big believe in Nazi-style eugenics, which would make any modern reader throw up a little in their mouths as they read the books. There is no real comparison to be made there. Hamilton is a better writer and a better storyteller than Smith ever was. To enjoy Smith, you need to have read it in the 1930s when it first appeared.

That I think is the suspicion that a lot of people hold over 'older' books: that they are old, dated and do not appeal to modern tastes. We may know that is BS. Some books - like Wolfe's or Zelazny's - feel as fresh now as they did thirty years ago. Some you can tell are dated but are still excellent reads (Tolkien, Herbert, LeGuin). Some, like Smith, were interesting back in the day but are no longer relevant. I think this is the reason so many will read only modern fiction and only the 'classics' at the urging of others.[/quote]

With all the respect, Adam, I think your idea is wrong. You can stop reading somebody just because his works were proper placed in his time of living. It means that we shouldn't read Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes novels or Agatha Christie's Hercule Poirot novels just because today we use forensic equipment, DNA analysis or all the modern crime investigations. Also this applies to Jules Verne, why stop reading him just because today we already reached the moon, we invented submarines or we go around the world in just one day.

Imagine if the future readers will not give a chance to the present novels just because the works doesn't fit their era. They will miss a hole lot of good stuff.

And speaking of music examples, I think that older musicians even better is the new music. Today after one year we tend to forget the "hot release" of the previous year, but we never forget songs or groups much older, like Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Queen etc. Same goes for books too. After the initial hype what happened with Dan Brown's "The Da Vinci Code", for example?

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Xray the Enforcer' post='1371729' date='May 27 2008, 05.22']I love how this thread started as a legitimate comment on the value of debut novels, and has metastasized into [i]The Decline And Fall of Western Civilization[/i].[/quote]All these young whippersnappers should be hit with the mailed fist of good literature.

[Werthead]

[quote name='Dark Wolf' post='1371852' date='May 27 2008, 09.21']With all the respect, Adam, I think your idea is wrong. You can stop reading somebody just because his works were proper placed in his time of living. It means that we shouldn't read Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes novels or Agatha Christie's Hercule Poirot novels just because today we use forensic equipment, DNA analysis or all the modern crime investigations. Also this applies to Jules Verne, why stop reading him just because today we already reached the moon, we invented submarines or we go around the world in just one day.

Imagine if the future readers will not give a chance to the present novels just because the works doesn't fit their era. They will miss a hole lot of good stuff.

And speaking of music examples, I think that older musicians even better is the new music. Today after one year we tend to forget the "hot release" of the previous year, but we never forget songs or groups much older, like Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Queen etc. Same goes for books too. After the initial hype what happened with Dan Brown's "The Da Vinci Code", for example?[/quote]

Well, as I pointed out in my post, there are works that haven't dated and are still releveant to our times, and those books remain essential touchstones of the genre. I would be unconvinced of someone's qualifications as an SF or fantasy 'expert' if they'd never read Peake or Wolfe, for example. My main point was that there is work that is of its time or place and is no longer really relevant, and that point was applied to Smith in particular, not all 'old' works in general.

[Paddy]

[quote name='Dark Wolf' post='1371852' date='May 27 2008, 09.21']With all the respect, Adam, I think your idea is wrong. You can stop reading somebody just because his works were proper placed in his time of living. It means that we shouldn't read Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes novels or Agatha Christie's Hercule Poirot novels just because today we use forensic equipment, DNA analysis or all the modern crime investigations. Also this applies to Jules Verne, why stop reading him just because today we already reached the moon, we invented submarines or we go around the world in just one day.

Imagine if the future readers will not give a chance to the present novels just because the works doesn't fit their era. They will miss a hole lot of good stuff.

And speaking of music examples, I think that older musicians even better is the new music. Today after one year we tend to forget the "hot release" of the previous year, but we never forget songs or groups much older, like Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Queen etc. Same goes for books too. After the initial hype what happened with Dan Brown's "The Da Vinci Code", for example?[/quote]
I don't think that makes much sense. Some people on this board read books with Fantasy-Medieval settings, yet they dont seem to have a problem because we have had the steam engine, and now the internal combustion and the electric motor...