Montreal Massacre - 20 years on

[S John]

I don't think Manson is to blame for Columbine (although i'm less sure about the other Manson), but in this instance Islam is to Hasan as Men are to this. Thats wrong - but the culture of violence against women does exist, as does extremist fanaticism in Islam, and glorification of violence in the media works for all three for me.

Thats fair enough. I'm not denying that our culture still lacks true equality between the sexes.... though nothing even remotely approaching the mainstream would promote violence against women.

My point was that you can't one day deny Islam had anything to do with a Muslim conducting shoot 'em up and then turn around and say that a culture of violence against women (which I think is a bit of dubious claim in the modern West) was to blame for the Montreal shootings.

[Guest Raidne]

I'm not sure I understand the argument. It sounds like we're talking about the cause of the shooting, and asking whether a culture that is hostile to the women's movement is a necessary condition for this particular shooting.

First of all, I guess I never pictured Quebec as a place particulary hostile to women's progress? Was I mistaken?

Secondly, Lepine was part of a community of immigrants, from what I understand, including an Algerian father who was oppressive and abusive to his mother (and to Lepine), so I'm not sure how much of any of it a person can really blame on mainstream Canadian culture.

Lastly, when we say this kind of thing, one deranged individual might be the primary cause, but we can usually make a general charge against the culture at large in being complicit. For instance, in studies of Nazi Germany, we know that it wasn't just Hitler. One town in Poland took it upon themselves to perpetrate mass murder on the Jewish community that constituted nearly half of the town's population.

Here, it's not like there was some general outpouring of support for the shooter. Or like mainstream media made excuses for his actions, or anything like that. So I guess I don't see it.

For me, the most general comment a person can really make is to point it out as a case study of what can happen in a child's development when we let violence against women in the family go unchecked - it can lead to and encourage violence against women in the public sphere. And domestic assault certainly is something that Western culture is complicit it, and has been for a long time. That's the best I can do with this incident as a feminist issue.

[Xray the Enforcer]

nothing even remotely approaching the mainstream would promote violence against women.

The hundred or so posts that I have deleted from this forum from a wide variety of boarders (mostly, but not exclusively, male) advocating the rape and murder of women for not knowing their place puts this notion in a shallow grave. And let's not even get into the acceptability of singing the praises of violence against women in certain widely popular forms of music.

[Guest Raidne]

The hundred or so posts that I have deleted from this forum from a wide variety of boarders (mostly, but not exclusively, male) advocating the rape and murder of women for not knowing their place puts this notion in a shallow grave.

Wow, really? Is my memory that bad, or are they just deleted that fast? Or are we talking about tasteless "jokes" or something like that?

And let's not even get into the acceptability of singing the praises of violence against women in certain widely popular forms of music.

Maybe I just don't hear that kind of music anymore, but this seems to have maybe leveled off a little bit? Or am I crazy? I can't think of anyone who's like a modern equivalent of Too Short.

[Alexia]

You missed some, X-Ray, and I found them when I was reading archives.

Also, I would venture to point out while I have heard of several attacks like this targeting women (the most recent being that man who shot up a bunch of women in a gym) I have never heard of a woman targeting a bunch of men for being men. So I do think its linked to an overall context of violence against women.

[Shryke]

You missed some, X-Ray, and I found them when I was reading archives.

Also, I would venture to point out while I have heard of several attacks like this targeting women (the most recent being that man who shot up a bunch of women in a gym) I have never heard of a woman targeting a bunch of men for being men. So I do think its linked to an overall context of violence against women.

Or maybe because men are FAR FAR FAR more likely to do this kind of stuff?

The vast majority of serial killers are men, for instance.

[Bellis]

Wow, really? Is my memory that bad, or are they just deleted that fast? Or are we talking about tasteless "jokes" or something like that?

Think book forums. Sansa, Catelyn, Brienne.

[Shryke]

Damn, just another reason not to go over there I guess.

[S John]

The hundred or so posts that I have deleted from this forum from a wide variety of boarders (mostly, but not exclusively, male) advocating the rape and murder of women for not knowing their place puts this notion in a shallow grave.

Have you been reading the book threads again?

In seriousness... maybe you won't have to dig to deep to find an ugly comment, and as a mod you probably have more insight on these things becuase they are probably brought to your attention and destroyed before many people even see them. But I do not agree that advocating the rape and murder of women is considered acceptable in any culture that I have ever been associated with. Are there people with a similar cultural background who commit these acts? Yes.... Horror stories abound. Does everyone stand in a semi-circle and do a golf clap? Absolutely not.

As I said I don't deny cultural issues, but I don't think its going to get us anywhere to frame the discussion by a massacre perpetrated by some crazy bastard. I think you'd be very hard pressed to find anyone, not also bat-shit crazy, who agreed with his actions or his reasoning. At the end of the day, a violent person is a violent person and the demise of the victims is no more or less tragic because of the why of the trigger man.

And let's not even get into the acceptability of singing the praises of violence against women in certain widely popular forms of music.

I think this is the first time that Notorious BIG has foiled one of my internet arguments.

[Guest Raidne]

Also, I would venture to point out while I have heard of several attacks like this targeting women (the most recent being that man who shot up a bunch of women in a gym) I have never heard of a woman targeting a bunch of men for being men. So I do think its linked to an overall context of violence against women.

Call me crazy, but isn't there a movie about it starring Charlize Theron?

I think I'd rather think about it this way - there is certainly a theme amongst violent male criminals of having messed up, destructive, and violent thoughts about women. I'm not sure I could say that this is something that they picked up from the culture at large, however, but I do think that having messed up ideas about women does make a person more likely to be a crazy homicidal maniac, and that we should take that kind of behavior much more seriously when it first presents itself, instead of brushing it off as harmless "boys will be boys" ridiculousness. Nobody gets away with saying the kinds of things about any minority in public that we let people say about women on a regular basis.

But I still can't say that we live in a culture that is complicit in a mass murder targeted against women, like I could say that we live in a culture that is utterly complacent about domestic abuse. And I couldn't quite say that being complicit in the latter is as good as condoning the former, although I do see that there is some relationship.

Think book forums. Sansa, Catelyn, Brienne.

Oh right. Thanks.

[King Nobody]

The hundred or so posts that I have deleted from this forum from a wide variety of boarders (mostly, but not exclusively, male) advocating the rape and murder of women for not knowing their place puts this notion in a shallow grave.

As if sexual violence against arrogant men isn't seen as deserved, or isn't joked about by some women. Violence against men in general is often seen as funny, I have never saw a mainstream comedic tv show feature even close to as many clips of women being kicked in the groin as men.

[Guest Raidne]

As if sexual violence against arrogant men isn't seen as deserved, or isn't joked about by some women. Violence against men in general is often seen as funny, I have never saw a a mainstream comedic tv show feature even close to as many clips of women being kicked in the groin as men.

Just to be clear - despite what I've been saying, taking the argument this far the other way is, IMHO, just plain stupid, although certainly novel.

I'll take your lack of female groin-kicking and raise you a lack of male nipple-twisting.

In all seriousness, I'm at work, so I can't even post about all the things that are violent and degrading to women that can be viewed on video.

[Kat]

You missed some, X-Ray, and I found them when I was reading archives.

Also, I would venture to point out while I have heard of several attacks like this targeting women (the most recent being that man who shot up a bunch of women in a gym) I have never heard of a woman targeting a bunch of men for being men. So I do think its linked to an overall context of violence against women.

Additionally, there are unhinged people out there who do see the Montreal shooter as a martyr for the cause of men's rights, and who still go around threatening women for having the audacity to, for instance, be developers and want a culture that isn't totally hostile.

My heart goes out to the friends and family of these women. It's an attack that chills me more than any other, given the choice of victims.

ETA: King Nobody, it's not like we haven't seen this argument before. Again, I present you with this link. Read through the whole thing and tell me that feminists are the ones promoting violence against men as humor.

[King Nobody]

Just to be clear - despite what I've been saying, taking the argument this far the other way is, IMHO, just plain stupid, although certainly novel.

I'll take your lack of female groin-kicking and raise you a lack of male nipple-twisting.

In all seriousness, I'm at work, so I can't even post about all the things that are violent and degrading to women that can be viewed on video.

I've saw far more male nipple twisting in mainstream film and TV shows than female.

And I'm not saying there isn't violence against women in mainstream TV and film, but I am saying it is usually comparable in the amount of violence against men, and violence against women is usually portrayed in a negative light.

[KAH]

As if sexual violence against arrogant men isn't seen as deserved, or isn't joked about by some women. Violence against men in general is often seen as funny, I have never saw a a mainstream comedic tv show feature even close to as many clips of women being kicked in the groin as men.

While that undoubtedly is very bad...

...do you believe that this will lead to an equal (absolute or relative) increase in serious female-to-male violence, as compared to increases in serious male-to-female violence resulting from portrayal of 'justified' sexual violence against women?

And while you ponder that, can you imagine a reason for a difference between the two?

[King Nobody]

...do you believe that this will lead to an equal (absolute or relative) increase in serious female-to-male violence, as compared to increases in serious male-to-female violence resulting from portrayal of 'justified' sexual violence against women?

And while you ponder that, can you imagine a reason for a difference between the two?

I'd like to know what tv shows you guys have been watching =/. I very rarely see sexual violence against women being justified in mainstream film and television. But no, I don't think this will lead to an increase in female-to-male violence, in the same way that I don't think eminem's lyrics will lead to an increase in violence against women, and in the same way that I don't think The Devil's Rejects or Natural Born Killers will lead to an increase in violence against people in general.

[zollo]

Just to be clear - despite what I've been saying, taking the argument this far the other way is, IMHO, just plain stupid, although certainly novel.

Really? You sure it is only the book threads you haven't read in a good while? :P

Joking aside, afraid that is not novel either.

eta: to avoid duplication

[Yagathai]

Wait, lack of male nipple-twisting? All other points made in this thread aside, I can say with some degree of confidence that there is approximately 5000 times more male nipple twisting than female nipple twisting on mainstream television and in film.

Further to the point that I think King Nobody would be trying to make if he were, well, better at making points that hold up to scrutiny, I should point out that when it comes to sexualized violence in mass media, while women are much more likely to be depicted as the victims of sexualized violence, they are far less likely to be the victims of sexualized violence for comedic effect. The majority of (for example) genital trauma, nipple twisting and forcible sodomy or threat thereof for sake of a joke are portrayed with men as the victim, whereas those same activities when portrayed with women as a victim are treated in a serious and usually condemnatory fashion.

I don't know what that point has to do with this argument at large, mind you, but it's certainly quite interesting.

[Guest Raidne]

Really? You sure it is only the book threads you haven't read in a good while? :P

Joking aside, afraid that is not novel either.

Really? Hmmm...maybe I'm not paying attention. Because I have to admit, the whole western-culture-isn't-sexist-because-men-get-kicked-in-the-nuts-on-TV thing is new to me.

By the way, IMO, it features often in comedy because it's one of the few things that causes extreme pain at a level that wouldn't even come close to causing any lasting effects. This is the stuff of humor. End of story.

[Datepalm]

Further to the point that I think King Nobody would be trying to make if he were, well, better at making points that hold up to scrutiny, I should point out that when it comes to sexualized violence in mass media, while women are much more likely to be depicted as the victims of sexualized violence, they are far less likely to be the victims of sexualized violence for comedic effect. The majority of (for example) genital trauma, nipple twisting and forcible sodomy or threat thereof for sake of a joke are portrayed with men as the victim, whereas those same activities when portrayed with women as a victim are treated in a serious and usually condemnatory fashion.

I don't know what that point has to do with this argument at large, mind you, but it's certainly quite interesting.

Maybe becuase this kind of violence against men is exagerrated to the point of absurdity, and so is funny, while women being raped or having their bodies inapropriately grabbed by strangers, for example...is not an exageration of anything. (not saying sexual violence against men dosen't exist, but its rarer, maybe rare enough for the potential threat of it not to be something quite reasonably on many mens minds on a daily basis.)