Melisandre's secret agenda

[Dougsmum]

This thread is for theory and speculation. I'm suggesting that Melisandre does have a secret agenda because it is obvious that she at least does have secrets. Unless you think she said to Stannis "Let's put together a Lightbringer sword for political appearances" and he went along with it. He doesn't know it's a fake. So Mel is KEEPING SECRETS FROM HIM. FOR HER OWN REASONS. She could very well be the opposite of what she appears to be. If were suggesting that Melisandre has a secret obsession with ice cream, you could go ahead and call me ridiculous!

[The Leech Lord]

This thread is for theory and speculation. I'm suggesting that Melisandre does have a secret agenda because it is obvious that she at least does have secrets. Unless you think she said to Stannis "Let's put together a Lightbringer sword for political appearances" and he went along with it. He doesn't know it's a fake. So Mel is KEEPING SECRETS FROM HIM. FOR HER OWN REASONS. She could very well be the opposite of what she appears to be. If were suggesting that Melisandre has a secret obsession with ice cream, you could go ahead and call me ridiculous!

Sorry, ridiculous was probably a bit over the top. But I'm just saying that we haven't seen her do any actions that were not dedicated to helping Stannis or Westeros. At least, from what I remember. So, while it makes sense to say she has secrets, cause she definately has them, I was saying that the idea that she's an Other supporter is crackpot. At best.

[youper]

Mel is not telling Stannis the truth about his sword. She must know that it is a fake. So she must know that Stannis is not the PwwP. She is a fraud, why? Perhaps she wants to defeat the Others, but then why waste so much time with Stannis? Why kill a boy that probably will not wake dragons? I find her actions strange if she is against the Others.

Her actions are less strange,(to me of course) if she wants Stannis to play the role of the Night King. Besides we need a POV in league with the Others. It will make for a better story. The only options I see for this are Bran and Mel. (And it will kill me if Bran was corrupted.)

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Her actions are less strange,(to me of course) if she wants Stannis to play the role of the Night King. Besides we need a POV in league with the Others. It will make for a better story. The only options I see for this are Bran and Mel. (And it will kill me if Bran was corrupted.)

The parallel between Mel and Stannis and the Night King and his corpse queen are pretty clear (down to coupling and creating terrible children in the dark of night, and stealing his soul when she takes his seed), but that doesn't mean that Mel is actually on the same side as the Others. It could be that the forces of Ice and the forces of Fire are indeed bitter ancient enemies, but that they mirror each other and are both just as dangerous to mankind. Ice can burn just as bad as fire, in it's own way.

[The Leech Lord]

Mel is not telling Stannis the truth about his sword. She must know that it is a fake. So she must know that Stannis is not the PwwP. She is a fraud, why? Perhaps she wants to defeat the Others, but then why waste so much time with Stannis? Why kill a boy that probably will not wake dragons? I find her actions strange if she is against the Others.

Her actions are less strange,(to me of course) if she wants Stannis to play the role of the Night King. Besides we need a POV in league with the Others. It will make for a better story. The only options I see for this are Bran and Mel. (And it will kill me if Bran was corrupted.)

I agree, the Azhor Azhai thing is complicated. But just because something's up with that, doesn't automatically mean everything she's said is a lie. Why help Stannis get the the wall quickly with the winds? Arrive late, and the Nightswatch is weakened, maybe even the wall down. Why set up night fires? We know that the wildlings use them, though without the religion, to keep the Others away. So basically, she's done quite a few things to combat the Others that a traitor wouldn't do.

[Namorath]

i dont believe mel has a secret agenda or anything like that. ive always felt she is just a religious zealot who is fallable and misguided. she said herself that the flames never lie but if she is wrong the fault is in the reader no in the flames. for example she knows the stone dragons need to be awakened and is working to fullfill that prophecy, she doesnt know that that has already happened with dany stone eggs

also the fact that she openly defends her actions "says shadows are not evil but creatures of light and fire" make me thinks she believes in the righteous of her mission and her religious orders fight against the others

mel is just an example of religious extremism because as anyone who knows our own history religious extremists has an infallible sense of their own righteousness without any self doubt in their cause

also on a little side note mel is an example of utilitarianism where the ends justify the means against davos' kantian ethics which is the opposite. she believes that anything she does that serves the greater good (defeating the others) is justified like killing 1 child to save a million, davos and myself disagree with that perspective but that doesnt make her evil or that she has a secret agenda

[LC Snow]

The parallel between Mel and Stannis and the Night King and his corpse queen are pretty clear (down to coupling and creating terrible children in the dark of night, and stealing his soul when she takes his seed), but that doesn't mean that Mel is actually on the same side as the Others. It could be that the forces of Ice and the forces of Fire are indeed bitter ancient enemies, but that they mirror each other and are both just as dangerous to mankind. Ice can burn just as bad as fire, in it's own way.

Even if R'hollor and the Great Other are ancient enemies I don't think it is fair to assume one is good and one is evil, or even that they are both what they seem. Maybe they are just playing the game of thrones, they could both be evil. I think its fair to assume the Others/GO are evil but there is nothing in my mind to suggest that R'hollor and followers of the Red God are good. Everything we have seen them do is questionable. Mel with her shadows and burning of children, and the Red God followers aggressive campaign against other religions.

[Lord Godric]

Melisandre is such an interesting character to me. I speculate whether she knows who she is working for. Because I refuse to believe that the work she is doing, burning people, killing people with shadows, is the work of R'hllor. My theory is that she is either indirectly working for the Great Other, or flat-out lying to Stannis to manipulate him to help the advancement of the Others.

[Ealasaid]

Melisandre is one character I do not enjoy reading about. Her aspect and demeanor give me the creeps. I think she's evil.

The Red Priest with the BwB, seems to be more about life. He also sees things in the flames. Thoros is regular sort of priest who makes no apologies for ruining good swords with a bit of magic fire to win melees.

Yet Mel is death. It seems wherever she goes or scrys or magicks, death results. She claims that her god vanquishes the dark. Yet she trafficks with death-dealing shadows. We have been told by several people that her Lightbringer sword is a fake.

Since I don't care for her, I haven't read her as carefully as I could have. So this is just my quarter's worth of theory on Mel.

She lies. She kills. She is hiding something.

[Ser Kevan Raley]

I really don't like Melisandre. I think she isn't one of the good guys. However, since this is GRRM's world we're talking about, I think she does have a necessary role to play in defeating the Others. We might not like it, and "the good guys" might not like it, but they will need her. You cannot afford to be picky when it comes to your allies if your very survival depends on them. So they will reluctantly have to accept her atrocities.

[Gaston de Foix]

I really don't like Melisandre. I think she isn't one of the good guys. However, since this is GRRM's world we're talking about, I think she does have a necessary role to play in defeating the Others. We might not like it, and "the good guys" might not like it, but they will need her. You cannot afford to be picky when it comes to your allies if your very survival depends on them. So they will reluctantly have to accept her atrocities.

Three observations on this thread.

1. I agree with those who characterise Melisandre was sincere but misguided and a fanatic to boot. As to whether her's is the power of R'hllor or shadowbinding, I think she has both sets of skills actually. Shadowbinders can enter dreams, forsee the future and make shadow babies. But Melisandre is capable of more than that. First of all, in some unknown manner, she managed to destroy Varamyr's eagle and drive him insane. She also managed to recognise there was someone controlling the eagle. That shocked me because it indicated the limits of warging powers, and the relative strength of her magic.

It's not actually canon, but if you read the description GRRM wrote for Jaime v Rand in the suvudu contest you'll see that Melisandre was capable of producing fireballs. That's a natural direction for GRRM to take her magic. Hints and suggestions were all well and good in the first few books but with the Long Night approaching I expect her to reveal all her powers.

2. Magic and Religions. This could be it's own separate thread but effectively there are several magic systems in Westeros and Essos and while initially Martin was careful to leave their position obscure, it's clear that foretelling the future is possible now. The Ghost of High Heart, Bennaro, Melisandre, even Stannis show some ability with this and it's likely that if we ever see the use of glass candles we will see that they can be put to a similar purpose. It's even possible the Dothraki rituals are genuine and Dany's child would have been the stallion who mounted the world.

My own belief is that Melisandre's magic has been set up as a kind of foil for the magic of the Valyrians which is the magic of dragons and blood and fire. I fully expect her to sacrifice Shireen to create a shadow dragon which belches shadow fire (this has been foreshadowed), but I don't think that will succeed in destroying the Others.

3.Melisandre's moral character. Those who oppose Melisandre as evil should remember that she counselled Stannis to free Davos from prison and it was presumably at her urging that Stannis came to the Wall in the first place. She may be a religious fanatic, unscrupulous, a murderess etc but she has came to Westeros to fight the Others.

[Alexius]

I actualy see Melisandre as a good guy.

Yes, her methods are more than questionable, but it's a society where hired assassins, tortures and vile poisons are normal instruments of an effective ruler.

Yes, she is misguided, but we have to remember that she haven't read the books and doesn't know that Dany and Jon are main heroes. And we're yet to see how she reacts when it will become clear that Stannis is not AA.

And her interaction with Davos shows that she respects him and not because he is such a wonderful guy that even evil sorceress' love him, but because she values his integrity and honesty (as Stannis does) and see him as an ally even if he doesn't trust (and planed to kill) her. It's quite a redeeming quality for me.

So for now I suppose that she was one of the first to see the coming Long Night, tried to find AA, failed and decided that it would be fatal to idly wait prophecy to fulfill itself.

[LC Snow]

I actualy see Melisandre as a good guy.

Yes, her methods are more than questionable, but it's a society where hired assassins, tortures and vile poisons are normal instruments of an effective ruler.

Yes, she is misguided, but we have to remember that she haven't read the books and doesn't know that Dany and Jon are main heroes. And we're yet to see how she reacts when it will become clear that Stannis is not AA.

And her interaction with Davos shows that she respects him and not because he is such a wonderful guy that even evil sorceress' love him, but because she values his integrity and honesty (as Stannis does) and see him as an ally even if he doesn't trust (and planed to kill) her. It's quite a redeeming quality for me.

So for now I suppose that she was one of the first to see the coming Long Night, tried to find AA, failed and decided that it would be fatal to idly wait prophecy to fulfill itself.

She already knows Stannis is not AAR. She knows enough about the prophesy that I think it is stupid to assume she actually thinks he has the real Lightbringer.

[Alexius]

She already knows Stannis is not AAR. She knows enough about the prophesy that I think it is stupid to assume she actually thinks he has the real Lightbringer.

I assume that she thinks that she can make the prophecy true. She doesn't believe that Stannis is AA but she believes that he can become AA if she and he will try hard enough. The Long Night is nigh and she see no other alternatives, but to try to actively fulfill the prophecy.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I assume that she thinks that she can make the prophecy true. She doesn't believe that Stannis is AA but she believes that he can become AA if she and he will try hard enough. The Long Night is nigh and she see no other alternatives, but to try to actively fulfill the prophecy.

If Melisandre somehow finds out about R+L=J, she might switch to believing Jon will be AA. I'm actually anticipating the big reveal of this secret (finally) will occur near the end of aDwD.

[Ealasaid]

We know so little about the various religions. Perhaps the Red Priests regularly sacrifice people to the flames for death. Mel is the only one we have any information on.

The other references are to the red priests and their fires. Illyrio does mention that those people living in Pentos have been assured by the red priests that the Dothraki will not sweep in and conquer Pentos. But Thoros doesn't seem offended by the existence of other gods. He seems to understand that when he is on High Heart, he won't be able to see in the flames.

This is just my opinion, and I can't back it up yet. I think Mel was something else before she donned the red priest garb. Whatever she is, I agree she is extremely powerful.

It may be that she is a new convert and has all the zeal of one.

Or she may be buring the other gods so that the poeple over which she has sway will have no one to turn to but her.

If she knows Stannis isn't the one, why doesn't she hightail it to the one who is? Waiting at the Wall because she knows something will happen there, is a bit lame.

As to Davos, I believe she leaves him alone because Stannis does rely on him and, as much as Stannis can, actually likes the fellow. I think that if she were to snuff Davos, she'd lose a lot of clout with Stannis.

This is just all conjecture. As I said, I can't cite chapter and verse.

[Alexius]

If she knows Stannis isn't the one, why doesn't she hightail it to the one who is? Waiting at the Wall because she knows something will happen there, is a bit lame.

And who is? It's a question why she ruled out Dany. Probably, as Aemon said, she expects AAR to be male.

And she is not just waiting. She is making Stannis into AAR. I think that she doesn't believe that destiny will just fulfill itself and you can idly wait until AAR will come and defeat the Great Other. She sees the prophecy as a recipe and Stannis is her best choice. She believes (or hopes) that if he will have a flaming sword named Lightbringer and dragons awoken from stone it will be enough to make him into AAR and defeat GO.

As to Davos, I believe she leaves him alone because Stannis does rely on him and, as much as Stannis can, actually likes the fellow. I think that if she were to snuff Davos, she'd lose a lot of clout with Stannis.

It seemed that when Davos was imprisoned after Blackwater she had enough leverage to remove him (or oppose his assignment as King's Hand) without any serious harm to her relationships with Stannis.

Edit: Searched for quotes in Davos chapters from ASoS.

"I have seen him leading the fight against the dark, I have seen it in the flames." Mel about Stannis

"And it was Melisandre who told me to send for you when Ser Axell wished to give you to R’hllor." Stannis about Mel to Davos.

[iamthedave]

People in this thread are approaching Melissandre from the wrong perspective.

She does not have a human morality. No fanatic does. ANYTHING she does in pursuit of her faith is justified in her eyes. She doesn't need to mean evil or hate the people she hurts. Her faith requires it, so she does it. Simple as that.

She's described in almost claustrophobically sinister terms, though.

I will be shocked - shocked, I say - if Melissandre turns out to be 'one of the good guys' as it were. I suspect she'll accidentally end up helping the others. That or she'll decide to try and burn Jon and he'll have to kill her to protect himself, or she'll somehow be killed by something during ADWD.

I doubt she'll survive.

Of course, her POV chapter(s) may just be 'A HA HA HA HA HA' typed for six pages then jumping to another POV, so maybe she is evil after all?

[Lord Godric]

I will be shocked - shocked, I say - if Melissandre turns out to be 'one of the good guys' as it were. I suspect she'll accidentally end up helping the others.

I agree. Combined with the tale of the Night's King and I see Melisandre leading Stannis down a road that will ultimately help the Other. Intentional or not, I think that is where she is headed.

[iamthedave]

I agree. Combined with the tale of the Night's King and I see Melisandre leading Stannis down a road that will ultimately help the Other. Intentional or not, I think that is where she is headed.

I've always had the feeling that Stannis is going to come to a tragic, Other-related fate and end up leading their undead armies. Some sort of vision in the books made me think this, but I can't recall what it was, and I suspect that'll be Mel's fault.