[ADWD SPOILERS] The Ugly Little Girl

[NeilSpoon]

Hello, first post on these boards for me :)

I am probably in the minority here, but I really do not like the direction of Arya's story.....

She is one of my favourite characters. And her story in the first three books was amazing.... until she left Westeros. First of all, I think I am not alone in thinking that in general the events happening in Westeros are a lot more interesting to read than the stuff in Essos. And I loved how this impulsive TomBoy managed to survive throughout the first three books (escaping Kings Landing, meeting up with the BwB, being kidnapped by the Hound, being "that" close to the Red Wedding, etc). But now that she is in Braavos, she is being trained to be this identity-less assassin.

I think that all of her chapters since she joined the House of the Many Face God (or whatever it's called) are very much identical. She learns something new in each one, but it adds nothing to the story for me and they are very boring to read. I am not sure where he story will end up, but I hope that she will just finish her "training" soon and heads back to Westeros and just becomes Arya Stark again, with a new skill set. If she ends up being a faceless man, I would not be impressed tbh.

I would have much preferred her meeting up with her dead mother, rather than end up in Braavos. I think this would have been a very interesting reunion and her training could have involved killing Freys, which would have been much more enjoyable to read. I always hoped that she would be a driving force into re-establishing the house of Stark. This might still happen, but currently I don't like what she is becoming and find her chapters tedious to read.......

[King Bread]

Now that chapter was alone for the scene in the room of faces creepy as hell.

It's really too bad that there doesn't seem so many Arya chapters in this book, like in AFFC, all this stuff about the Faceless Men is so interesting. But even for that few "screentime" the chapters have a nice pace, even if only one task is accomplished per chapter. All in all I think GRRM is doing here pretty well, despite of abandoning the 5 years gap. This makes me almost think that she will go back to Westeros in the 7th book or at the end of the 6th.

I was at first tricked with Arya preparing her dagger and was already surprised why she would choose such a "dirty" way to kill the old man. Her plan with the poisoned coin was very well thought. And finally we see how this face changing works, more or less. So you have to do the Ramsay to gain a new face.

Just to ask, since English is not my first language: Did the kind man cut Arya's whole face off and planted the new one on her or did he just do a few cuts to cover her face with blood (then it would probably be some kind of blood magic)?

Still interesting that you take over the last memories of the face you take over and nevertheless the face feels like your original face. I wonder if that only counts for the user himself or also if other persons touch the face. Now Jaqen did it very fast and easily back then in Harrenhal, so it's still not clear how the final process of this face changing will look.

As for the process of abandoning her identity. I am also not so sure here. My guess is they see how fast she is progressing, so they always say she isn't doing well enough on abandoning her real identity, so that she works harder at that as response of defiance. Or they still have something special in store for her so they don't mind that this issue isn't so developing as they hoped so far.

Edit: Just an additional thought: The scene at the beginning when they are discussing who is going for a certain target. It reveals that Faceless Men aren't allowed to kill someone they know. This pretty much confirms that Arya won't kill any kin or Cersei as example (only if she plans to break the rules, but that will mean her end). That makes the choice of possible targets for which she would be send back to Westeros smaller, only a bit though.

[Tammy]

I'm kinda torn about this now. I do love Arya, don't remotely think she's a psychopath/sociopath, but I'm having a bit of trouble with the plausability of this storyline. It seems to me that GRRM is trying to have it both ways with Arya. On the one hand, she's embracing pretty much every task the kindly man/plague face give her and in so doing is apparently progressing with her training. But on the other hand, she still is for all intents and purposes Arya (and always will be as long as she has Needle, IMO), and as the conversation with plague face made clear, hasn't made any where near the required psychological change that faceless men need.

So for me, without that change not only does it kill any tension that might arise were she asked to do something that Arya doesn't want to do (like kill Jon), but on a more basic plot level I don't know why the kindly man/plague face think she's making progress when they even tell her to her face that they know that she isn't. I suppose you could argue that there's further transition to come, but shit, isn't that what these past two books have been for? Maybe Arya's story is one that would have worked a lot better with the 5 year gap, I dunno.

I don't think she would ever have to kill Jon nor be asked to do it. That's why the sailors on the ship to Bravos told her their names, gave her gifts and made her repeat the names over and over again. Then in the room as they were giving out the orders to kill, people kept saying that they knew that person. He even said that they don't kill people they know or have certain feelings about, so I don't see how she could ever be given the order to kill Jon based on the information we've been given so far.

Her use of the coin ties nicely with the prologue of AFfC and the poison coin Pate was given.

This is the first time that I've really been scared for Arya's progression on this path. I still think her connection to Jon will be the thing that keeps her from committing to it wholeheartedly.

[I'm Unsullied]

So what will happen if Arya decides later to leave this path and proceed to start working on her own personal hit list? Will the other followers hunt her down and give her the gift? I just don't like where she's going as it does not seem to lend itself to her being a major player in the end.

[Tammy]

So what will happen if Arya decides later to leave this path and proceed to start working on her own personal hit list? Will the other followers hunt her down and give her the gift? I just don't like where she's going as it does not seem to lend itself to her being a major player in the end.

From the way it sounds so far, they'd let her go. Sadly, we haven't learned enough about the organization of the FM to know that far ahead yet, but I can't wait to find out!

[Azor Snow]

I loved the way she pulled off her first hit. (Maybe I've played too many rogues in DnD) Her progression is advanced enough, but I would love to see it move along more. Learning a lesson each chapter is kind of slow, I hope there will be a bit of summarization so her arc can connect back to main story quickly. I'm also in the "Vengence" camp. I would prefer her to take her skills and go back to Westeros meting out justice but her new apprenticeship brings her more to Dany's side of the story.

I'm not sure what her final test would be, but I don't think it will be as brutal as the unsullied. She is already blurring her past and seeing herself as a "No One". I'm intrigued to see what revelation or epiphany she has that might break her bonds to the faceless ones. I think the warg in her is enough to keep her Arya, but I don't think it would make her leave. (or she would have already done so.)

I like Arya too much I guess, I want more for her then just being a cultured assassin. (Though I love assassins too.)

[Queen Beyond the Wall]

I think that Arya will never lose herself completely and become 'no one'. Yes, the faceless men would LIKE her to do that, but her objective is to become so good a liar that she can convince them that she had done so, and yet retains herself....she will therefore become VERY dangerous!! She will have the skills of the faceless men, but lack the impartial nature that the real faceless men use. I think her intention has always been to learn these skills so she can USE them for her OWN ends. And I am sure that she will succeed. Like I said, she is going to be very dangerous to her enemies.

[Myrddin]

I don't think the faceless man wants to be "no one" but be able to lie well enough to become "anyone"

[Tammy]

I think that Arya will never lose herself completely and become 'no one'. Yes, the faceless men would LIKE her to do that, but her objective is to become so good a liar that she can convince them that she had done so, and yet retains herself....she will therefore become VERY dangerous!! She will have the skills of the faceless men, but lack the impartial nature that the real faceless men use. I think her intention has always been to learn these skills so she can USE them for her OWN ends. And I am sure that she will succeed. Like I said, she is going to be very dangerous to her enemies.

I agree! I don't think that Arya will be able to pay that ultimate price of giving up herself completely. I think her connection to Jon, especially, is what will keep her from going total Faceless.

[JonTargaryenSnow]

I also don't believe Arya will ever believe she's no one. She still recites her "prayers" and still considers the fact that she doesn't have anywhere to go if she left the FM.

The kindly man said that changing faces wasn't sorcery or glamoring, right? He said Arya would learn those things but that wasn't what changing faces was about then we learn about the "face masks". If Arya looks like herself when she looks in the mirror but other people see her as the new face, isn't that a kind of magic? I wish we knew more about this.

[DanyStark]

GRRM really knows how to paint a picture. The "face room" scared the shit out of me. Imagine that in a few years on the show.

[Refuge]

I think that Arya will never lose herself completely and become 'no one'. Yes, the faceless men would LIKE her to do that, but her objective is to become so good a liar that she can convince them that she had done so, and yet retains herself....she will therefore become VERY dangerous!! She will have the skills of the faceless men, but lack the impartial nature that the real faceless men use. I think her intention has always been to learn these skills so she can USE them for her OWN ends. And I am sure that she will succeed. Like I said, she is going to be very dangerous to her enemies.

I also wonder if the FM are less perfect in their detachment than they seem-- perhaps each of them have these old connections to themselves, but as they get older they too get better at lying. So maybe they know exactly what Arya is doing, but they know that's the only path humans (who are by definition emotional and connected to one another) can take. So they encourage her, train her, have faith she will continue to be stronger.

[Wun Wun Greyjoy]

wither or not Arya goes full on FM, she is still going to be awesome. A FM who can wrag has got to be damn effective.

[Moester]

I'm kinda torn about this now. I do love Arya, don't remotely think she's a psychopath/sociopath, but I'm having a bit of trouble with the plausability of this storyline. It seems to me that GRRM is trying to have it both ways with Arya. On the one hand, she's embracing pretty much every task the kindly man/plague face give her and in so doing is apparently progressing with her training. But on the other hand, she still is for all intents and purposes Arya (and always will be as long as she has Needle, IMO), and as the conversation with plague face made clear, hasn't made any where near the required psychological change that faceless men need.

So for me, without that change not only does it kill any tension that might arise were she asked to do something that Arya doesn't want to do (like kill Jon), but on a more basic plot level I don't know why the kindly man/plague face think she's making progress when they even tell her to her face that they know that she isn't. I suppose you could argue that there's further transition to come, but shit, isn't that what these past two books have been for? Maybe Arya's story is one that would have worked a lot better with the 5 year gap, I dunno.

Kill Jon? Er, what?

[kephv]

Yeah somehow I don't see anyone going to the FM for Jon. Who would want him dead? Cersei does but she took steps to take care of it herself.

[Forelver]

So many interesting comments on this chapter...

The thing that got me the most was when they told Arya she can leave if she wants to and she thinks where would I go if I left? I think that is the crux of the matter, that she feels she has nowhere else to go and also that she loves the challenge of trying to succeed as a FM. I do feel so sorry for her, that she has been betrayed so many times and feels that nobody (unless she can somehow get to Jon on the Wall) wants her anymore.

I notice the man they gave her to kill was not terribly likeable. I wonder if they did that on purpose, making her first task a little easier, and I wonder what would have happened if she had been given someone she liked or identified to kill-say the beaten girl whose face she took?

I also think Arya is incredibly clever-witness her tricking Jaquen into helping her by naming him as one of the deaths, warging into the cat, figuring out the Kindly Man was hitting her, hiding Needle, and this trick with the coin. So I think she may end up having something up her sleeve with the FM-she will find a way to keep from being "no one."

[kephv]

I notice the man they gave her to kill was not terribly likeable. I wonder if they did that on purpose, making her first task a little easier, and I wonder what would have happened if she had been given someone she liked or identified to kill-say the beaten girl whose face she took?

Then again, the KM makes it pretty clear he's sort of just an average guy. I really liked that about this chapter by the way: how she's trying really hard to find something she doesn't like about the guy, painting him as evil so she in her mind she's justified in killing him (just goes to prove that she's not a sociopath like a lot of people say she's becoming).

I also think Arya is incredibly clever-witness her tricking Jaquen into helping her by naming him as one of the deaths, warging into the cat, figuring out the Kindly Man was hitting her, hiding Needle, and this trick with the coin. So I think she may end up having something up her sleeve with the FM-she will find a way to keep from being "no one."

Well she has Nymeria, needle and Jon (she still thinks about him and reflects sadly that he probably wouldn't even know her as blind beth). In that way, I don't think she'll ever ditch her identity completely; although, if she

hears Jon's dead

she might let go completely.

[patdzon]

Hello, first post on these boards for me

I am probably in the minority here, but I really do not like the direction of Arya's story.....

She is one of my favourite characters. And her story in the first three books was amazing.... until she left Westeros. First of all, I think I am not alone in thinking that in general the events happening in Westeros are a lot more interesting to read than the stuff in Essos. And I loved how this impulsive TomBoy managed to survive throughout the first three books (escaping Kings Landing, meeting up with the BwB, being kidnapped by the Hound, being "that" close to the Red Wedding, etc). But now that she is in Braavos, she is being trained to be this identity-less assassin.

I think that all of her chapters since she joined the House of the Many Face God (or whatever it's called) are very much identical. She learns something new in each one, but it adds nothing to the story for me and they are very boring to read. I am not sure where he story will end up, but I hope that she will just finish her "training" soon and heads back to Westeros and just becomes Arya Stark again, with a new skill set. If she ends up being a faceless man, I would not be impressed tbh.

I would have much preferred her meeting up with her dead mother, rather than end up in Braavos. I think this would have been a very interesting reunion and her training could have involved killing Freys, which would have been much more enjoyable to read. I always hoped that she would be a driving force into re-establishing the house of Stark. This might still happen, but currently I don't like what she is becoming and find her chapters tedious to read.......

I feel the same way. She's been hanging around with these guys for a while now so what's the point?

[iamthedave]

Couple of thoughts I had on this chapter.

1. If Arya doesn't become 'no-one' and starts abusing the gifts of the Many-Faced God, don't you think they'll kill her? This cult has been around a long time, the Faceless Men are legendary, and nobody knows how their gifts work. Arya would not be the only person to try and break away over their long history. Wouldn't you find it a bit of a stretch to believe she can successfully learn their secrets and get off scot free? She's - never - going to be as good as a real Faceless Man. Without a five year gap (which may well have been one of its original intentions) to develop her skills, there's no way Martin can swing her being comparable to a fully trained one.

2. Is Arya even relevant anymore? If you took out every one of her chapters in this book, would you have missed something important? This is a real problem. It's like we're reading because we like the character from previous books rather than because there's actually anything worth reading about. I was really hoping we'd see some sign of her arcing towards Sam or Dany in this book. Or, you know, doing something.

[Bozworth]

I was also unclear about how the coin stopped the insurer's heart until I read this thread... but now that line about "the other part was trickier, but the waif was there to help her" makes more since... And it also seems that Arya is getting a little practice at poison-craft.

As for how the face-changing works, I think they just cut a gash across the forehead so that the face is covered with blood. Then they press on the mask, which is somehow activated by the blood and binds to the wearer. They never went into details of how they returned her original face, so I'm not quite all the way along on conceptualizing how this works. Once they revert back to their old face, does the mask physically return so that it can "go back on the shelf", so to speak, or is it a part of the FM now, able to be summoned back at will?

As for implications for the TV show, I hope that Arya's face-shifting doesn't necessitate having different actresses playing the role. Maybe they can do it with CGI and let Maisie do the acting. As it is, it looks like Arya may be wearing a different face well into the next book.