U.S. Politics

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tempra,

I'd like to see that too.

:)

[Selmy]

Supposedly Geithner, Clinton, and Obama have been trying to reassure creditors that regardless of what happens by the 2nd, the US still intends to honor its obligations. Whether that's through these weird coins or just ordered the Treasury is not clear.

Watching this House vote is pretty damn annoying. Boehner has been screwing around for days delaying this vote to try and get the Tea Party in line...all for a vote that he knew was DOA in the Senate.

Talk about a colossal waste of time.

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

It's not a waste of time. His objective is plainly to cover himself politically, not avoid default.

[Noroldis]

Yeah, this is Boehner covering his ass so that when the US defaults and people look for someone to blame, he'll be able to say "See, the House passed a debt bill in time, it's not my fault the Senate immediately killed it."

[ThinkerX]

McCain made a prediction on the evening news last night. Lessee if I remember this right:

The house passes its 'lift the debt ceiling' bill and sends it to the senate. The senate immediately kills this bill, and passes their own - similiar, but unacceptable to the house. Heads of the house and senate get together behind closed doors, do some serious bargaining, and reach an agreement that neither likes but both can live with; then do some heavy arm twisting amongst their respective collegues. New bill passes...allbeit barely, and with lots of loud screaming. A clearly ticked off Obama signs it...mere minutes before the deadline.

Dunno...on the one hand McCain could be dreaming or senile. On the other, he's been in office longer than many of the people on this board have been alive, so maybe his experience counts for something.

[Asarlai]

McCain made a prediction on the evening news last night. Lessee if I remember this right:

The house passes its 'lift the debt ceiling' bill and sends it to the senate. The senate immediately kills this bill, and passes their own - similiar, but unacceptable to the house. Heads of the house and senate get together behind closed doors, do some serious bargaining, and reach an agreement that neither likes but both can live with; then do some heavy arm twisting amongst their respective collegues. New bill passes...allbeit barely, and with lots of loud screaming. A clearly ticked off Obama signs it...mere minutes before the deadline.

Dunno...on the one hand McCain could be dreaming or senile. On the other, he's been in office longer than many of the people on this board have been alive, so maybe his experience counts for something.

I'm inclined to agree. It's either that or Congress fails and Obama takes the measures several constitutional lawyers say he has the power for and makes sure the government doesn't default.

[ThinkerX]

I'm inclined to agree. It's either that or Congress fails and Obama takes the measures several constitutional lawyers say he has the power for and makes sure the government doesn't default.

Obama takes those measures, House immediately begins impeachment proceedings...but said impeachment gets bogged down in the Senate, and meanwhile *lots* of really unpleasant/possibly illegal factiods about those leveling the charges come to light. Result is giant mess that leaves Obama vulnerable to defeat next election - but he remains in office until then.

Fits right in with this handy formula of sorts:

Our pending energy supply contraction= no economic growth= insufficient debt service= chaos + oilwars.

We've done hit the 'no economic growth' part.

We've also hit the 'insufficient debt service' section.

Obama takes these measures...well, we'll have reached the 'Chaos' milestone as well. An argument can already be made for the 'Chaos' marker being reached at the state level.

As to 'oilwars' - to all intents and purposes, that is what Iraq was - an oil war. The rest of it - terrorism, weapons of mass destruction, even genocide - was never anything more than a smokescreen - though there are a lot of people who vehmently claim otherwise. Likewise, one of the big, though mostly unacknowledged reasons for getting involved in Libya is because of the oil.

[Asarlai]

Obama takes those measures, House immediately begins impeachment proceedings...but said impeachment gets bogged down in the Senate, and meanwhile *lots* of really unpleasant/possibly illegal factiods about those leveling the charges come to light. Result is giant mess that leaves Obama vulnerable to defeat next election - but he remains in office until then.

How could they impeach him for a power he has? And if he doesn't have it, why are they trying to take it away, in the House?

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Thinker - for God's sake, not EVERYTHING has to do with an oil crisis.

Obama really doesn't have to do anything at this point. I believe that McCain's prediction will come true, although it is troubling that Boehner wasn't even able to pass his own bill in his own House. Still, I think that'll happen.

The reason Obama keeps insisting that he can't invoke the Constitutional option in public is that the moment he does, although it will ease economic fears, it takes ALL the pressure off Congress and the Republicans. The Reps have tried to play this against Obama, but he's called their bluff and he has them in quite a bargaining position. Personally, I am against entitlement cuts but agree that the deficit needs to be controlled (though not in the middle of a recession), and so I think Obama can really make a serious impact if the GOP will play ball. If Obama lets it be known that he will just ignore the debt ceiling then they have no incentive to work with him.

As far as Obama's options... yes, the Mint can coin trillions of dollars worth of coins. Hell, the Fed is literally sitting on billions of dollars worth of non-circulating dollar coins that the Mint has been issuing because of a law passed in like 05. However, this will set a very bad precedent and will most likely set off inflation. Other than that, I see two options:

1. The same guy who proposed the trillion-dollar coins posited this scenario. Basically, the Constitution mandates that Congress sets the budget and the President has to carry it out, and Congress mandates that the debt ceiling be obeyed. In this case, the debt ceiling violates the President's Constitutional obligation to fulfill the budget legally passed by Congress, and so he can legally (supposedly) ignore it. He can furthermore invoke the 14th Amendment and say that he is Constitutionally obligated to pay debts regardless of any other factors.

I like this option. It will basically kill the debt ceiling, as any President hereafter will be able to ignore it safely. The GOP learned their lesson with Clinton and will not impeach Obama, and even if they did they would obviously fail, given that they don't have a two-thirds majority in the House (I don't think? Will look up the numbers) and are a minority in the Senate. In any case, it would be hard for them to make the case to the public when Obama's PR team is telling them that he would rather obey the Constitution and still run the government than crash the economy.

2. QE3, in the form of Fed repurchases of maturing T-bonds held by government agencies, especially SS. The Fed will purchase all government t-bonds that come due and replace them with new dollars. The Fed could also begin purchasing govt IOUs and unmatured t-bonds in the SS trust to the tune of hundreds of billions (or more), pushing SS over its obligations and allowing the excess to accrue to the general Treasury. This option makes sense but holds the risk of creating inflationary pressure.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

If Obama takes the power of the purse away from congress he may as well rename himself Augustus and get it over with. Lets dispense entirely the idea that this is a government of the people altogether and we'll be happier for it.

Then at least we can start demanding some bloodydamn tribute from the provinces (I'm looking at you everyone in the western hemisphere).

[TheKassi]

Obama takes those measures, House immediately begins impeachment proceedings...but said impeachment gets bogged down in the Senate, and meanwhile *lots* of really unpleasant/possibly illegal factiods about those leveling the charges come to light. Result is giant mess that leaves Obama vulnerable to defeat next election - but he remains in office until then.

Fits right in with this handy formula of sorts:

We've done hit the 'no economic growth' part.

We've also hit the 'insufficient debt service' section.

Obama takes these measures...well, we'll have reached the 'Chaos' milestone as well. An argument can already be made for the 'Chaos' marker being reached at the state level.

As to 'oilwars' - to all intents and purposes, that is what Iraq was - an oil war. The rest of it - terrorism, weapons of mass destruction, even genocide - was never anything more than a smokescreen - though there are a lot of people who vehmently claim otherwise. Likewise, one of the big, though mostly unacknowledged reasons for getting involved in Libya is because of the oil.

I would consider this a disastrous misstep by the GOP, as they have been preaching the horrors of default for a while now. His defense in the court of public opinion would be effortless. Something as simple as: “Look, The House and the Senate refused to work together. I did not think the American people should pay the price for their shortcomings. I listened to my advisers and acted to resolve the issue as best I could within the powers entrusted to my by the American people and The Constitution. If they feel I over reached, perhaps they should do the job the American People entrusted to them.”

Cue clip reel of every member of the GOP and their punditry going on about bad it would be if America defaulted on it's debt.

It would be like Bush and torture, only without the, you know, torture. Not to mention a real live disaster averted, rather then secret ones we are not allowed to know about.

[Dinsdale!]

If Obama takes the power of the purse away from congress he may as well rename himself Augustus and get it over with. Lets dispense entirely the idea that this is a government of the people altogether and we'll be happier for it.

Then at least we can start demanding some bloodydamn tribute from the provinces (I'm looking at you everyone in the western hemisphere).

eh... in the long run does it really change anything? After this year I'd be surprised to see Obama or any future President sign a budget without an accompanying debt ceiling measure.

And if we're going for tribute, got to be careful, lest we get a pile of bananas.

I'd say let's "request"

Argentina: Steak

Canada: Justin Bieber

Mexico: Cocaine

Argentina: Steak

Brazil: Soccer players

Peru: Fried Guinea Pigs

Venezuela: PAY YOUR DEBTS! how they managed to get the Brits and Germans to cooperate on anything, I'll never understand

I'm tired of this game, so the rest can also give us cocaine

[The Marquis de Leech]

The GOP learned their lesson with Clinton and will not impeach Obama, and even if they did they would obviously fail, given that they don't have a two-thirds majority in the House (I don't think? Will look up the numbers) and are a minority in the Senate.

To remove from office requires majority-vote impeachment in the House and a 2/3 vote in the Senate to convict. The Republicans would, of course, fail, but these are people who aren't sane to start with.

[Horselover Fat]

I don't want Beiber, don't really want cocaine anymore at this point of my life. Where the fuck is all the heroin coming from, that's what I want to know. Heroin and weed, shit give me that and a couple Pink Floyd CD's and I'm good.

ETA Drunk poster is drunk.

[lokisnow]

1. The same guy who proposed the trillion-dollar coins posited this scenario. Basically, the Constitution mandates that Congress sets the budget and the President has to carry it out, and Congress mandates that the debt ceiling be obeyed. In this case, the debt ceiling violates the President's Constitutional obligation to fulfill the budget legally passed by Congress, and so he can legally (supposedly) ignore it. He can furthermore invoke the 14th Amendment and say that he is Constitutionally obligated to pay debts regardless of any other factors.

I like this option. It will basically kill the debt ceiling, as any President hereafter will be able to ignore it safely. The GOP learned their lesson with Clinton and will not impeach Obama, and even if they did they would obviously fail, given that they don't have a two-thirds majority in the House (I don't think? Will look up the numbers) and are a minority in the Senate. In any case, it would be hard for them to make the case to the public when Obama's PR team is telling them that he would rather obey the Constitution and still run the government than crash the economy.

Obama knows that if invokes the 14th two things will happen, it gives insane firepower for the republican attack machine, you've already seen the post below yours laid out with the first talking point, Obama=Caesar.

The second thing that will happen is that he will be impeached immediately by the house. Boehner knows that they shouldn't do it (Clinton lesson). Boehner knows that it will never clear the Senate.

But more important than both of those things, Boehner knows that if doesn't let the Tea Party impeach Obama then he'll lose his speakership. And that means he's going to let them impeach Obama.

[Galactus]

I don't want Beiber, don't really want cocaine anymore at this point of my life. Where the fuck is all the heroin coming from, that's what I want to know. Heroin and weed, shit give me that and a couple Pink Floyd CD's and I'm good.

¨

Afghanistan.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Who would want Bieber, Cocain, or Heroin?

[awesome possum]

Part of me just wants to let the teatards have complete control already so they can go ahead and screw up the country all at once. No government shutdown here, debt ceiling default there. Let those psychopaths go ahead and have their way with the country so that we can vote them back under their rocks and into their caves. Better that they just go ahead and do all the damage they're going to do now instead of letting them gradually destroy things from the outside out of hatred and jealousy of the black man in the house they call "White" for a reason.

I realize that these people are run by interests that have no interest in the well being of the American people or even the country. I can only hope the damage they do while in charge is minimal and easy enough to erase once the sane (albeit corrupt and mostly soulless) people are voted back into power.

Something tells me though, that for all the whinging and moaning that goes on from the right about Obama's alleged abuses of power, if the tea party ever really got full control of the government they would never let it go. We would see the end of democracy as we know it in the USA.

But since even this ridiculous debt ceiling showdown only seems to be enabling the far right - amidst terrible approval ratings and outright loathing by most of the rest of the nation - our only hope is to let them have their five minutes so they can screw things up as bad as everyone but the far right knows they will. Just to get it over with.

The other part of me hopes that every single person who identifies with the tea party fall over dead tomorrow, thus instantly making the world a slightly better and safer place. This part of me also only had four hours of sleep last night and currently has a very unhappy teething baby cursing at him. Mind might change. Maybe not.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

AP,

How does the tea party have "complete control" when there is a Democratic President and a Democratic majority in the Senate?

[Asarlai]

If Obama takes the power of the purse away from congress he may as well rename himself Augustus and get it over with. Lets dispense entirely the idea that this is a government of the people altogether and we'll be happier for it.

Then at least we can start demanding some bloodydamn tribute from the provinces (I'm looking at you everyone in the western hemisphere).

It is literally unconstitutional to not raise the debt ceiling. What did we elect the President for, if not to have power to enforce the Constitution and run the country?