Sooooo ... The Starks?

[Ser_Niall]

I personally think that the time of Westeros being ruled by the great houses is coming to an end. I'd be surprised if any of the major houses survive the end of the series. I think this is an "end of an era" type series, and we'll see some completely new power structure ruling Westeros by the end.

[Ned Stark's Ghost]

@dragonspawn

not entirely sure i understand ur idea, but i get the gist of it ... blood sacrifice protects agains the others and the purer the blood the better the protection?? is it pure blood in the sacrifice or in the recipient of the protection that matters?

@ser nialle

i agree it is an end of an era thing, but with the same houses ... just different structure :)

[DragonSpawn]

@dragonspawn

not entirely sure i understand ur idea, but i get the gist of it ... blood sacrifice protects agains the others and the purer the blood the better the protection?? is it pure blood in the sacrifice or in the recipient of the protection that matters?

@ser nialle

i agree it is an end of an era thing, but with the same houses ... just different structure :)

There are a lot of gaps to fill i admit... but there's a lot to talk about :s

I'll go back to basics a bit...

The main blood types that matter are: Dragon blood (i believe this is somehow linked with the Cotf in the same way that Ice has become a magic associated with the Starks) ... and the blood of the first men (12 houses) as they have a very strong bond with the singers and have inherited 'gifts' (love may be responsible for this bond - it wouldn't be the first time someone has fallen for a singer and a love bond between a singer and one of the first men would definately explain why the CotF helped the first men in the long night). [remember: fire is no different to ice... it's just a different magic used by the singers, same as wind, rock etc...]

Have you noticed as well that the singers sing only sad songs!? i believe they only sing when they are upset that their magic is being used inappropriately... or man has broken the terms of their original pact (i.e. are not acting responsibly) ... The Lannisters being blood of the First Men have done more than enough to start a war between the singers and mankind alone... and there are no doubt plenty of other guilty parties...

The singers were once said to cover all the world but were small in numbers because they lived a long time and were very powerful... imagine if all the singers sang the song of 'wind' at the same time - there would be such a storm that the world would be scoured clean... When the Valyrians used their gifts to enslave half the world... the singers were upset at the way their gifts had been used... and they all sang a very sad song ... therefore you can imagine what happened next ... the 14 fires which was probably the Valyrian equivalent of the Wall went 'boom'! - They failed their judgement :( ... the involvement of the singers is also hinted at as part of the Faceless men history...

Dany is pure fire for blood: Jon is both and if assumptions about Tyrion are correct he may have blood of Dragon and First men in him... the Starks also have very pure blood of the first men... Cat Stark... (Andal descent) is described as having "impeccable blood lines" (... we will have to wait for Littlefinger to explain that one properly as it was a TV show comment) - A friend of mine has a very good theory about the grey-sheep (maesters) attempting to dilute the purity of the Stark Blood lines by recommending to Rickard to invest in the southern bloodlines ("his southron ambitions")... this means Maesters are generally bad news (with the exception of maybe one or two such as Marwyn and Aemon who would be sympathetic for obvious reasons)

A guide to creating a 'ward': Bloodraven showed Bran how to do this in DwD... He had greenseeing ability but needed it to be unlocked... this is where Jojen came in... it is a great honour to be sacraficed for the King in the North (only Bloodraven would know this is true) ... and for the good of the realm... Jojen had green dreams - Bloodraven is known as "the last green-seer" - therefore it is safe to assume that all Jojens visions have been projections made by Bloodraven... so why show him his death? ... only one reason makes sense... to prepare him for this great honour :)

When Bran eats the weirwood paste he reaches out into the roots and the trees... (imagine an invisible bubble growing out from Bran) - he is warging the world around him... accessing the weirwood network and downloading information... but Bran is a very powerful warg.... this means that while he is warging the world around him... no lesser wargs can come near him ... i.e. if an Other is being warged he will not be able to get into the cave due to Bran being a more powerful warg... this is called a 'ward'. The question is: who created the ward at the Wall... and how is this maintained? ... bust guess answer is Brandon the Builder himself... and lots of sacrafice.. (remember the face in the door beneath the Nightfort? and how Jon Snow describes the Wall as having 'moods')

It is the purity and the power of Brans blood that makes this possible :) a good Star Wars phrase springs to mind: "the force is strong with this one!" - it also explains why the Targs try to keep bloodlines pure... and why Rhaegar put so much on the line to have a child with Lyanna Stark (the wolf-blood was strong in her)

It also explains how you can warg Ice... and also warg fire... (e.g. When Varys hears the voice in the flame)

does that help explain where i'm coming from ..? (and why my posts are so stupidly long!) ;)

Edit: to try and simply the theory try imagining the 'Old Gods' as a democratic jury watching over the living ... a few misdameanours aint gonna ruffle many feathers... but mass slavery... injustice... treason... this is gonna piss them all off!

[Ned Stark's Ghost]

where does it say bran must sacrifice jojen? and for what purpose?

just came to me, what if Bran the Builder was a greenseer like bloodraven, and is the door in the nightfort?? (yes, i will think of anything to prevent Bran the Builder being the NK :()

where in DwD is the example shown?

how are the children linked with dragon blood if the dragons came so long after the andals killed them all? wouldnt they have much stronger ties to the first men? and if the lannisters are First Men, why are they not magical? (yet :S)

love the idea of children influancing everyone tho, especially the Doom ;) and sorry for all the stupid questions :P

[DragonSpawn]

where does it say bran must sacrifice jojen? and for what purpose?

just came to me, what if Bran the Builder was a greenseer like bloodraven, and is the door in the nightfort?? (yes, i will think of anything to prevent Bran the Builder being the NK :()

where in DwD is the example shown?

how are the children linked with dragon blood if the dragons came so long after the andals killed them all? wouldnt they have much stronger ties to the first men? and if the lannisters are First Men, why are they not magical? (yet :S)

love the idea of children influancing everyone tho, especially the Doom ;) and sorry for all theI stupid questions :P

questions are good.. otherwise i have no idead what i've explained well and where i'm just being confusing (which happens a lot) :)

Brandon the Builder i agree is probably part of the Wall.. and is represented by the face in the door ... he is almost definately a very very powerful green-seer... and so would know about.. well.. everything.... past present and future... including Brandon Starks fate... (sheds a tear as Bran goes through the door) - something as huge as the wall would require a massive sacrafice.. which is why i'm assuming Brandon the Builder himself... and i'm sure Bloodraven was able to communicate with BtB somehow... and BtB gave him the task of preparing Bran .. i.e BtB knew that the 'ward' on the Wall would be broken and that Bran will somehow - have to re-activate the ward ...

Jojen i believe was sacraficed to 'enhance' Brans warging skills - so it's not just animals but also the 'world' he can warg - this means he can create wards wherever they are needed ... all you need is very strong warg blood (the Starks are probs best) ... a sacrafice ... and some weirwoods to transfer the magic through and create a protective warg network around a specific location... this fits with the way the Stark kids are spread around... with Brans guidance they should be able to create safehouses to protect people from the dead... did you also notice all the random mentions of weirwood trees throughout the story... (i think they will become more important later in the story)...

The 'ward' training is in DwD when Bran eats the weirwood paste that he thinks looks like blood (can't remember page number). Its been talked about a lot and im going with the sacrafice version :) ... Bloodraven doesnt admit Jojen was sacraficed (partly because Bran doesn't ask and partly because Bran would never have understood why and wouldn't have done it... and all would be lost) .. as Bran reaches out for his father as someone he misses... he also reaches out for others that he cares about... one of them being Jojen and he sees the sacrafice - and then understands) Other examples being that he was probably seeing visions of Old Nan because of how close those two were...

With regards to Dragons... think of it this way: Asshai = Fire and life... this region is where all men came from supposedly ... there are lots of clues such as "the mother of mountains" etc... Death and justice and preservation and Ice all come from the Land of Always winter... between these two powerful magical forces anything is possible... but all men came from across the sea... everyones roots are the same-ish and it is mentioned that the singers once covered the world too

i believe Dragons are the purest form of magic... i.e. the singers can actually create dragons using their magic eg.. "fire made flesh" ... but this also throws open some interesting possibilites: "Stone made flesh" for example... "Ice made flesh" being another... It might also explains these odd references in the prophecies such as "a great stone beast took wing..." - and for anyone who wants to see an Ice Dragon... i wouldn't rule it out.. so what i am trying to say is: Dragons were once everywhere as magic was once everywhere... Danys dragons may be a one-off but dont actually have to be...

With regards to the Lannisters - the last hero went forth with 12 companions ... 12 companions = 12 houses of the first men... i once worked out who the 12 houses are now ... and who are the key characters to watch out for... i lost my notes unfortunately... Davos was an interesting one though ;).... and may times it is mentioned about the Lannister 'green' eyes .. and also remember what Bloodraven says about 'green' eyes... ?? think of all the odd dreams that Cersie / Jamie and Tyrion have... so in fact... they may well be magical :)

[Ned Stark's Ghost]

would love to know how to create a dragon :D i get most of it now nice one

could u just go over the ward network one more time? not being thick just summit completely new to me

where are we told about the last hero? aka BtB? jaysus if u had them notes u would be worshipped on this site :P

are u sure ur not GRRM ;) :bowdown:

[jon rr stark]

My thoughts on the coming events:

1. Davos gets Rickon
   
2. Stannis talks Winterfell - Boltons now extinct
   
3. Stannis names Rickon LoW
   
4. Sansa marries Harry the Heir and has the Vale ( riverrun is lannister/frey controlled)
   
5. Sansa goes North and is Castellan of Winterfell under LF
   
6. Sansa and Stannis go south
   
7. Meanwhile at the Wall Jon is AA reborn
   
8. Jon and NW go north to fight others
   
9. Bran helps but can never leave the tree
   
10. Dany ,Tryion and Drogo fly north and finally become relevant!
    
11. The 3 heads complete , Others gone, all loose ends tied up they fly back to myreen
    
12. Happy ever after
    

That all fits very neatly and would be a good outcome. Therefore it wouldn't happen, GRRM is not going to be soo accomadating

[Frey Pie]

The Starks are like most popular sports teams-nearly everyone loves them but those who dont really dont!!Come on the Starks!!!

[DragonSpawn]

would love to know how to create a dragon :D i get most of it now nice one

could u just go over the ward network one more time? not being thick just summit completely new to me

where are we told about the last hero? aka BtB? jaysus if u had them notes u would be worshipped on this site :P

are u sure ur not GRRM ;) :bowdown:

Soz was just tidying up my last post .. Missed ud already replied :) if the others are anything to go by (the misty ones) then i reckon all u need is some old dead bones for a dragon hatching. Im not sure whether MMD knew what she was doing... She was tutored by marwyn the mage after all... But three lives for three eggs ... Even with fossilised dragon bones they can be raised again it seems... 3 lives were taken by MMD when she was in the tent... KD, R and the Horse... Aka the stallion who mounts the world... These 'souls' were transferred... In the same way as the old gods seem to need sacrafice to award their gifts for greenseeing etc... Dany received her gifts when she bbq'd MMD. 3 dragons hatched for her and she remained unburnt ... Her blood being pure also has a stronger fire resistance anyway due to the direct descent from the valyrians who lived with dragons 24/7... Whether or not she could survive a full on roasting without making a sacrafice first is debatable.. But on this principle i dont see why the old gods could not do the same for a different dragon egg and a different sacrafice and a different way of giving the gift... Eg through a weirwood or in snow etc... Even stone... Melisandre seemed keen to give it a go... She didnt have an egg either :) im hoping to see some new dragons but depends on if they are 'needed' and hopefully they will be fighting on the right side if they do come :( i would be happy with just Danys three though...

The last hero story is told by old nan in GoT , he went to seek the CoTF with 12 companions, a dog and a horse :)

The way i see the ward working is: imagine your part of the old god network ... Ur not happy with the current king... U start raising bodies but need to use ice magic to do this and its heavily dependant on snow to blanket control an army which can only be semi-warged... I.e you can give them simple tasks... Walk, bite, climb, kill, ... Ur dead army smells the blood of a small boy in a cave but (like varamyr sensed jons ability & strength!) u sense that he is a powerful warg and cant get to him through his weirwood barrier as he is stronger and u wont be able to reach your zombies without being 'pushed out' as the small boy is 'reaching out' into the roots around him...

So you leave him alone... Or wait for your moment...

:)

Now imagine a really huge wall with hundreds of tunnels and caves below (no doubt with weirwood roots running though them) and an ancient hardcore greenseer still somehow sentient in the Wall and another bloody powerful wolfwarg standing on top of it :s u just cant get through... Remember how the dragon horn was described as silencing the drowned god by damphair? The horn of winter may work the same way ... Shuts up the old gods and stops them from warging.... So to get through the wall u need to either to find the damn horn and/or kill the damn wargs and greenseers :)

[bagofrats]

Does anyone else have a baaaaaaad feeling about what Rickon is going to be like once he gets found again?

As sorry as one feels for the poor kid, losing his entire family and home to violence before the age of five, I worry a lot about what those early traumas are going to mean for his adolescent character. Supposing that he absorbed as much as any toddler could from his parents, still, when Mother goes off and leaves him he's only four and isn't going to have established much in the way of the decency Starks seem to manifest (I know, I know, Sansa was a complete tool for betraying her father's plan to Cersei, but that was more a problem of idiocy than evil)... and from his first scenes he's reacting angrily to being abandoned, and acting out, and there isn't anyone willing or able to discipline him when he does.

Maybe I'm just over-influenced by Rickon's having become close friends with the Walder Freys, but I'm worried that he's going to turn out to be a bad, bad person, as bent by his losses as Viserys Targaryen, relying entirely for family on a big black direwolf who has NOT been trained as well as Grey Wind or Ghost or Summer; Rickon was simply too young to take responsibility for a direwolf cub. Instead of training the wolf, they've probably trained one another, and Rickon has been using Shaggydog as a big mean weapon; that's more dangerous threat than any five-year-old ought to have, and it isn't going to make for a psychologically healthy, non-vicious adult person.

Rickon is going to turn out to be the really tragic Stark. You think *Arya* has moral or mental or emotional problems? She's probably going to look like a model of shining character next to what Davos is going to find on Skagos.

My only hope is that Rickon gets a lot of tough mother love from Osha, and she manages to teach him that lashing out and acting up will never fix what's wrong. She seems too tough to let Rickon's rank as a Stark prince outweigh her authority over him as an adult over a child; I just hope Rickon doesn't get mad at her for making him be quiet, and set Shaggydog to tear out her throat. Holy prayers, what would Rickon be like after living a few years FERAL on Skagos? Eating human babies Shaggydog brings him as the best portion of the kill?

Shudder.

I tend to agree with you about Rickon himself potentially being a nasty bit of business.

When Shaggydog started getting aggressive, I began wondering if the direwolves weren't mirroring their owners personalities through the warg bond. Which is to say, Shaggydog isn't going mad/wild because he has had insufficient training, but because Rickon is. Rickon seemed able to control him (always able to call him off WHEN - key word when - he wished) perfectly well.

[joe stark]

what about arya's direwolf? shes leading a pack of thousands of wolves i think thats also gonna affect the world.

[Alia of the knife]

Welcome to the forums:)

I hope Arya crosses paths with Justin Massey and comes home to right some wrongs.

Nooooo, because Justin will try to marry her.

He's like "Disco Stu" that way. :P

[Alia of the knife]

I definitely think the Starks will come back, and it will be bittersweet.

But, then again, it already is.

Ned is gone, Cat is gone, Robb is gone, Winterfell and it's people are gone, so I don't know how much more they should be put through to make a point about misery, unless to make their comeback an absolute payoff.

I can't begin to imagine what form this takes in terms of them finding resolution and, (gasp), happiness, so I'll leave it to others to speculate.

I can see Jon fulfilling his role/prophesy, warging into a dragon, and he can't come back.

Then, Jon, not Rhaegar, will truly be the last Dragon.

[joe stark]

i think jon will be come lord of winterfell and once he marchs south will learn from reed that R+L=J

[Lady Hodor]

Rickon will become Lord of Winterfell, with Shaggydog at his side.

Tyrion will relieve Sansa of his marraige to him (maybe so he can marry Tysha) and she will marry Little Lord Robert, to gain the Vale.

Bran will become The King Beyond the Wall, and work with Rickon to control literally ALL of the North.

Jon will swear fealty to both Rickon and Bran, and then the Wall is theirs too.

Arya will be ordered to kill all the Bolton's, so that the whole "Jeyne-Arya" thing is no longer an issue, and the Boltons are out of Winterfell.

Stoneheart-Catelyn will join the lot, and, at last satisified her children are safe, die to be with Eddard.

Robb and Ned's ghosts will wander the crypts... not signifigant, but i felt the need to get all the Starks in.

[joe stark]

Rickon will become Lord of Winterfell, with Shaggydog at his side.

Tyrion will relieve Sansa of his marraige to him (maybe so he can marry Tysha) and she will marry Little Lord Robert, to gain the Vale.

Bran will become The King Beyond the Wall, and work with Rickon to control literally ALL of the North.

Jon will swear fealty to both Rickon and Bran, and then the Wall is theirs too.

Arya will be ordered to kill all the Bolton's, so that the whole "Jeyne-Arya" thing is no longer an issue, and the Boltons are out of Winterfell.

Stoneheart-Catelyn will join the lot, and, at last satisified her children are safe, die to be with Eddard.

Robb and Ned's ghosts will wander the crypts... not signifigant, but i felt the need to get all the Starks in.

jon will find out R=L=J meaning he wont have to swear fealty to any of them! sansa wont marry Robert thats her cousin.

[Ned Stark's Ghost]

@dragon spawn

nice one :D :bowdown:

Just a thought, if dany was protected from the fire due to her blood sacrifice+dragon blood, if when the others break through abd start kinning shit wont the starks be extra protected against them if they are fighting a war also? (war = blood = sacrifice) expand that, wouldnt pretty much every family in the north be protected to some degree, through First Men descent?? Except Lord too-fat :P

[WinterWarrior]

Tyrion will relieve Sansa of his marraige to him (maybe so he can marry Tysha) and she will

I must have missed something here. Not to get off topic - but when has Tysha emerged?

As far as the Starks go, GRRM has been rough on them. However this turns out I hope he eases up on them. And I agree with Ser Nialle that this might be an "end of the Westeros world" as it is known story...by the end of Book 7 (or 8). This might be a type of pre-history story.

[DragonSpawn]

@dragon spawn

nice one :D :bowdown:

Just a thought, if dany was protected from the fire due to her blood sacrifice+dragon blood, if when the others break through abd start kinning shit wont the starks be extra protected against them if they are fighting a war also? (war = blood = sacrifice) expand that, wouldnt pretty much every family in the north be protected to some degree, through First Men descent?? Except Lord too-fat :P

I think it depends on how the sacrafice is made... and whether or not the singers feel it is worth bestowing gifts on an individual... and i think that depends on what they see in the future of that individual... Brienne buried a dead body beneath a weirwood tree - this may count as a sacrafice... she was then hung... what happened after that we don't know... but she's alive now... (some people think Brienne was spared by Cat but i'm still not convinced... Brienne had a badly broken arm when she was taken... no mention of a sling when she meets Jamie! i'm not sure how much time passed but it may be Brienne is undead now too!) it may be the reason Cat Stark was brought back was because she made a sacrafice of jinglebells too ... there are some details i just don't know how to fill in... but the 'gifts' i'm sure vary depending on the individual e.g. Greensight, Skinchanging, Re-birth, Dragon hatching etc... but here's the big issue... If you believe that the old gods are like a democratic jury watching over the living then you can imagine it is made up of people who were both good and bad or have different views on things... Varamyr for example... so what would happen if Ser Gregor prayed to the old gods for power and then took Cerseis head off in front of a Weirwood tree? Would these darker immortals bestow the gift on him too? Have they already thanks to Qyburn? How many sacrafices did Qyburn make to bring Ser Gregor back? Why did he ask Cersei for more women? and as Qyburn and MMD were both trained by Marwyn... is what Qyburn did to bring Gregor back the same as what MMD did to get the Dragon hatching process under-way? All quite mental questions that i'm not sure of the answer to... i can only speculate that the process of giving birth or bringing life into the world (which is why women are associated with life) is important... A baby sacrafice may be the most powerful sacrafice you can make... which may explain Craster's sacrafice of his baby sons... he was fathered by an oathbreaking member of the NW... maybe the old gods took a dim view of this and tried to remove Craster... the only choice he had was to sacrafice his sons... this may make him seem sick and cowardly ... but even the wildlings are sympathetic towards him and this may explain why :) Edit: If i'm right about Qyburns sacrafices then i would guess there must be about a 9 month gap between when Cersie sends Senelle or Falyse Stokeworth to Qyburn and when Gregor makes his reappearance... i haven't checked that though :P

[Barty]

Sansa gets the vale - blackfish frees edmure, while catelyn captures riverrun - so edmure rules the riverlands again.

Rickon becomes the lord of winterfell(potentially even the king in the north) with Jon leading his armies. Stannis and jon bring their armies south where they are joined by a huge army from the vale and the riverlands and they destroy the freys. The Lannisters are crushed between Aegon and Stannis - stannis withdraws his claim and becomes lord of storms end under Aegon and Aegon confirms Rickon as king of the north , the riverlands and the vale.

Danny comes to westeros after all the good part is done and then leaves to live in the house with the big red door as she sees the targs are back in power and that Aegon has a better claim than her.

Doran martell hires Arya to kill Danny as vengeance for quentin and Arya does(hopefully by burning Danny alive)