How did Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna in the first place?

[corbon]

I've always wondered why it couldn't be Ned, thus explaining the start of an apparently close friendship between him and Reed.

Ned is fairly much ruled out by the size thing. He's 18 at the time, and likely to be pretty much 'fully grown' (even if not 'filled out' yet, though a youth full of martial training probably means he is a lot more filled out than most modern 18 year olds).

While I guess you can't entirely discout Lyanna because it mainly sounds cool

Being cool has nothing to do with it. Lyanna fits all the facts as well as the metastory. No one else comes remotely close except Benjen.

I really hate people using Kingslayer's offhand thought that jousting is 3/4 horsemanship as a reason it could be her. I wish there was someone on these boards that had actually jousted because I can't honestly believe someone is just going to pick up a lance and beat even three squires just because they're skilled at riding a horse. I'd think that when you are at someone like Kingslayers level of skill in jousting then the horsemanship is going to seem the most important but jousting is something people had to practice at hard to be any good. Simply the strength to hold your shield and lance steady to start with, being able to put that lance where you want it, and I'd think most importantly knowing how to take a hit because jousting is a sport where if you're hitting them they're most assuredly hitting you at the same time.

Not necessarily. The KotLT is a smaller than usual target and doesn't appear to have been hit.

We know Lyanna had practiced sword fighting at one stage until her father stopped her. Riding was something she could do relatively freely though (as Bran does, once he gets Tyrion's saddle made). If she wanted to practice swordplay, she probably wanted to practice with a lance too. But she wouldn't have been able to do so easily without being caught by Rickard. However riding at Quoits or 'rings' is something easily done with little setup or kit required and is an applicable and appropriate martial training for jousting that she could easily practice secretly on her own or even with her brother(s) without her father finding out (or even disaproving as much I would guess).

Not being hit is nerve and/or luck. She seems to have had that, even if only as plot armour.

But being good enough with lance to hit the right spot every time? That she could have easily and safely practiced. A lot.

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

"Kidnapping" is the "official" term for what happened with Lyanna.

The Stark-Baratheon-Arryn-Tully faction used the alleged "kidnapping" as an excuse to fan the flames of their rebellion. Of course they are going to maintain forever more that the event was a "kidnapping". Not only does "kidnapping" protect Lyanna's post mortem reputation, it also helps to justify the rebellion (damn those Targaryens, not only are they crazy but they run off with our women too grrrr).

Kidnap as the “party line” for the Robert & his support makes sense, but if there was doubt about it or an alternative story out there then surely Targ loyalists who’ve featured as POVs would have referenced it. Ser Barristan & Jon Connington would know what the Targ view of what happened was, and given their high opinion/man crush on Rhaegar surely they’d be angry about a fabrication that painted him as a kidnapper and a rapist. But there’s nothing of the sort. If neither actually knows the truth of Rhaegar’s actions, they were both around the Targ court at the outbreak of war and would have heard every rumour going. But neither has displayed any surprise that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna etc., or that people would believe that of him.

So is the kidnap established fact in their mind's as well as team Robert?

[DornishKnight]

My vote is either Rhaegar secretly being a tentacle monster, or getting help from Tormund's member.

[Lykos]

I think it is more of a case of keeping your "enemies" apart from one another and don't let them form a power block against you. Not that I do think Rhaegar perceived the Starks/Baratheons/Tullys/Arryns as enemies as such, but definitely a potential threat to the Targaryen reign.

I, also think that Lord Rickard was breaking an agreement made by Torrhen Stark and Aegon I, wherein the Targaryens guarantee the freedom to worship the Old Gods in the North and the safety of the Isle of Faces. I think this is important, because it would give the younger Starks a reason to be critical, if not opposed to Lord Rickards "Southron Ambitons". They seemed to have liked Howland Reed very much and he had just spend years on the Isle of Faces, so that would naturaly have been a topic talked about.

I agree with you that Rhaegar could see the connection of three Great Houses as a threat, especially in future generations. A good hint is, that this hasn´t happened before, and if Bloodraven had been in Rhaegar`s place, I´m shure he would have done everything to prevent these marriages. So I can see the crowning of Lyanna being a warning.

I have some problems with Rhaegar taking Lyanna as a hostage, though. Rhaegar was not Bloodraven and he was said to be obsessed with the prophesy of the Ptwp. But let me follow your scenario Jaime Lannister was made a KG and Tywin resigned as Hand. This could have led to Rhaegar taking a greater part in ruling. Also there might have been plans put into action to carefully replacing Aerys II, who became increasingly unstable. I can see that Rhaegar saw the need to act, when the marriage-plans were not stopped.

Rhaegar took Lyanna hostage and she protested only formally, because she wasn´t happy about marrying Robert also opposed to her father´s plans and probably feeding some romantic feelings, since Rhaegar crowned her. She couldn´t be taken to KL, because Aerys was too unstable, but shouldn´t have Rhaegar made this public? Did he want to leave the king out of the dealings and negotiate with the Lords one on one? Did someone mess with communication?

<snip>

But being good enough with lance to hit the right spot every time? That she could have easily and safely practiced. A lot.

I think the statement that jousting is half or 3/4th riding skill rules out Howland. My problem is firstly that the three minor Knights defeated the Whent champions. Was there manipulation and if yes, who did it? The other problem I see is the physical strentgh, that I think, is needed for jousting. I know that I couldn´t hold a lance straight for ten minutes or lift/lower it on target at the right moment. I´m a 6 foot male, though not as broad in the chest as Robb, who is described as the better lance by Jon, though they seem to be equally good riders.

Kidnap as the “party line” for the Robert & his support makes sense, but if there was doubt about it or an alternative story out there then surely Targ loyalists who’ve featured as POVs would have referenced it. Ser Barristan & Jon Connington would know what the Targ view of what happened was <snip>

I don´t see Barristan Selmy so much as a Targ loyalist. I think he is too pragmatic, he accepted Robert´s pardon and didn´t support Viserys, which I can understand for a boy-king with a good chance to follow his father´s madness didn´t promise any good. And Barristan only regretted his decision after he was dismissed by Joffrey.

Has Jon Connington ever adressed the matter of Lyanna, or the Martells for that matter, I can´t remember their position on this.

[the trees have eyes]

Aerys was mad. Not always as Barristan reveals to Dany but the longer his reign went on the more obvious the "lapses" were.

Rhaegar is well aware that his father is becoming unfit to rule so intends to replace him. I don't think he telegraphs his intentions to anyone, only revealing his intentioins to his closest companions. There is a hint of this in Barristan's musings in ADWD and another in Jaime's chapter either ASOS / AFFC when he remembers Rhaegar telling him there will be changes after he returns from The Trident and that he shouldn't have waited so long.

I don't see any intent on the part of Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn or Robert Baratheon to rebel before Lyanna is kidnapped. Certainly not considering how admired and capable Rhaegar was. There is no need for a rebellion if a capable and popular son can supplant a mad father in a bloodless succession.

Rickard Stark's southron ambitions could mean nothing more than a dynastic marriage to the Tullys. All the great families inter-marry, there is a very small pool of suitable spouses for the most powerful lords and ladies. As an aside Brandon Stark seems to have a genuine affection for Barbrey Ryswell, even telling his father that he doesn't want to marry Catelyn Tully but in dynastic marriages you marry who you're told to for the best interests of your house. Which is why Rhaegar and Aerys' actions are all the stranger.

1. Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna

2. Brandon rides to KL with his companions, all highborn and influential younger sons

3. Aerys summons their fathers and has the fathers and sons put to death

4. Aerys demands Jon Arryn execute Robert Barratheon and Eddard Stark who are his wards and who he has raised like the sons he never had.

5. Arryn, Barratheon and Stark rebel, joined by Tully on the marriage of Catelyn and Lysa

It is entirely predictable that the Stark-Tully-Arryn-Baratheon dynastic alliance would revolt after 1-3. Aerys is mad and paranoid but surely Rhaegar could have seen this coming. True he is in the south, i.e. Dorne, while his father is murdering or trying to murder four of the seven great families of the realm but did he really think taking Lyanna would have no consequences?

All the stranger as we see in Dany's vision in the House of Undying in Qarth that he believes Aegon, his child by Elia, is the prince that was promised.

I think Rhaegar took Lyanna from Harrenhal or nearby but the why and whether she went willingly or not, and if she was willing why - love, prophecy - is going to have to wait on Howland Reed.

The fact that Rhaegar left 3 kingsguard to defend her (imprison her?) when he returned to fight the rebellion obviously puts great significance on her. The most plausible conclusion is that she was pregnant, which again is suported by her dying on the bed of blood (childbirth) and the promise Ned made her (to raise her son as his, his true parentage hidden).

Rhaegar was clearly one for prophecy and that would lead him to out of character actions, dishonouring both Elia and Lyanna with an affair and a bastard but I can't match that with Dany's vision in Qarth - he thinks he has already sired the prince who was promised.

Cue Howland Reed........

[Ygrain]

Rhaegar was clearly one for prophecy and that would lead him to out of character actions, dishonouring both Elia and Lyanna with an affair and a bastard but I can't match that with Dany's vision in Qarth - he thinks he has already sired the prince who was promised.

Either something we don't know about happened in between, or the clue is "there must be one more" and the fact that Elia couldn't bear any more children

[corbon]

I think the statement that jousting is half or 3/4th riding skill rules out Howland.

Among other things, yes.

My problem is firstly that the three minor Knights defeated the Whent champions.

Note that they didn't defeat all the Whent champions, nor the best of them (KG Whent). Basically the original champions are (apart from KG Whent) just ordinary knights who happen to be related to the birthday girl. Its not a major achievement to best them really, and nor would many of the better jousters be doing much on the first couple of days (over a five day tourney there is to high a chance of something going wrong, tiredness, injury, lamed horse, or other bad luck, so early on the weaker knights get their chance to 'challenge' for their moment of glory and those who really rate their chances wait until the last couple of days to challenge.

So while its convenient for the story for the three particular knights to be champions all at once, it doesn;t show them up as being particularly great jousters.

Was there manipulation and if yes, who did it?

Its possible, but I doubt it. At this stage Lyanna is almost certainly working alone and in no position to manipulate things. I think any manipulation is done by GRRM alone.

The other problem I see is the physical strentgh, that I think, is needed for jousting. I know that I couldn´t hold a lance straight for ten minutes or lift/lower it on target at the right moment. I´m a 6 foot male, though not as broad in the chest as Robb, who is described as the better lance by Jon, though they seem to be equally good riders.

You don't need 10 minutes though. You need 30 seconds or less, about 5 seconds or less of which needs to be 'on target'. And a properly made Lance should have a nice balance point making it easier to hold.

[Lykos]

@Corbon

And Lyanna emptied her winecup on Benjen´s head so she wasn´t drunk. And yes, the time,

, is much shorter.

[bloodymime]

Ned is fairly much ruled out by the size thing. He's 18 at the time, and likely to be pretty much 'fully grown' (even if not 'filled out' yet, though a youth full of martial training probably means he is a lot more filled out than most modern 18 year olds).

Being cool has nothing to do with it. Lyanna fits all the facts as well as the metastory. No one else comes remotely close except Benjen.

Not necessarily. The KotLT is a smaller than usual target and doesn't appear to have been hit.

We know Lyanna had practiced sword fighting at one stage until her father stopped her. Riding was something she could do relatively freely though (as Bran does, once he gets Tyrion's saddle made). If she wanted to practice swordplay, she probably wanted to practice with a lance too. But she wouldn't have been able to do so easily without being caught by Rickard. However riding at Quoits or 'rings' is something easily done with little setup or kit required and is an applicable and appropriate martial training for jousting that she could easily practice secretly on her own or even with her brother(s) without her father finding out (or even disaproving as much I would guess).

Not being hit is nerve and/or luck. She seems to have had that, even if only as plot armour.

But being good enough with lance to hit the right spot every time? That she could have easily and safely practiced. A lot.

Is he? That's a shame, I always thought it was a good way of explaining the friendship of two men that you wouldn't otherwise expect to be that close.

Does the story clearly state that the Laughing Tree knight is not hit? Otherwise that seems like a big assumption to make in a sport where you're pretty much guaranteed to be hit if you're hitting your opponent. Doesn't matter how small the person is they're still bigger then the tip of a lance and they're still the person that's riding the horse that's charging straight at you so I'll agree with you there, if the Tree knight wasn't hit once in three tilts that was a hell of a lot of luck.

I guess my reasons for thinking it was Ned was I never thought of him as a big man or tall at all for that matter, even at 18 a man doesn't necessarily have his full height, I must have read him wrong. The crannogman spent the night in his tent and the Reed children kept seeming sure that Bran would have heard this story from their father. I guess in this age without the constant bombardment of entertainment that kind of story would be considered only natural to be repeated and retold to the children even though Ned wasn't that involved but I always thought it was an indication that they were expecting it because it was Ned helping theirr father and Ned was just that kind of man that wouldn't be telling a story making him out as the hero.

[Jem]

Rickard Stark's southron ambitions could mean nothing more than a dynastic marriage to the Tullys. All the great families inter-marry, there is a very small pool of suitable spouses for the most powerful lords and ladies. As an aside Brandon Stark seems to have a genuine affection for Barbrey Ryswell, even telling his father that he doesn't want to marry Catelyn Tully but in dynastic marriages you marry who you're told to for the best interests of your house. Which is why Rhaegar and Aerys' actions are all the stranger.

The thing is, though, the Great Families do not inter-marry; they either marry the offspring of their bannermen or marry into the lesser houses in other regions.

What Rickard Stark was proposing to do was highly irregular. Not only was he marrying his eldest son to the eldest daughter of another Great Lord, he was also marrying his eldest daughter to yet another Great Lord. This is very unusual and therefore suspicious behaviour.

I suspect that the Targaryens placed strict restrictions on who the Great Families could marry, which would make a lot of sense because you don't want these people forming a power block against you. It is possible that the Targ king at the time might approve some marriages (eg the marriages Ned discovers in AGOT between Baratheon and Lannister - those these obviously happened a long time ago, one about 90 years ago and one about 110 years ago - and we don't know who these Baratheon and Lannisters were. I suspect that they were very unimportant ones - ie not heirs or eldest daughters).

In any case, in recent history, there have been no marriages between the Great Houses. We know this because the generation of Ned, Cersei, Cat, Mace Tyrell etc are not cousins. Neither are the generation of Tywin, Jon Arryn, Rickard Stark etc.

[corbon]

Does the story clearly state that the Laughing Tree knight is not hit? Otherwise that seems like a big assumption to make in a sport where you're pretty much guaranteed to be hit if you're hitting your opponent. Doesn't matter how small the person is they're still bigger then the tip of a lance and they're still the person that's riding the horse that's charging straight at you so I'll agree with you there, if the Tree knight wasn't hit once in three tilts that was a hell of a lot of luck.

I don't think it does state that. But it is pretty clear that the KotLT is probably not hit any significant blows.

Not being hit at all would be a lot of luck, but being hit a couple of glancing blows at most be being a smaller than usual target for knights of no great name as jousters for the purposes of literature isn't really that surprising.

As a purely speculative aside (and mostly for the amusement value), I wouldn't be surprised if Lyanna had some unusual techniques for 'hit-avoidance' from practicing with her brothers. :cool4:

I guess my reasons for thinking it was Ned was I never thought of him as a big man or tall at all for that matter, even at 18 a man doesn't necessarily have his full height, I must have read him wrong.

He's no Greatjon, but clearly not a small man.

The KotLT is specifically 'small of stature' - I'd be very very surprised if Ned had failed to have a growth spurt by 18 and grown into something approaching his full height at least, especially given that a large part of his boyhood would be martial training.

Ned would also almost certainly have his own, fitting, armour, not have a mismatched and ill-fitting mess.

The crannogman spent the night in his tent and the Reed children kept seeming sure that Bran would have heard this story from their father. I guess in this age without the constant bombardment of entertainment that kind of story would be considered only natural to be repeated and retold to the children even though Ned wasn't that involved but I always thought it was an indication that they were expecting it because it was Ned helping theirr father and Ned was just that kind of man that wouldn't be telling a story making him out as the hero.

Lyanna fulfills this perfectly (arguably better than Ned). She is close family, the lost sister that Ned loved very much, and arguably this is her finest hour, her defining great story for the children.

Howland OTOH probably knows Ned better than to expect him to tell his children stories about his own 'noble deeds', even disguised as something else. Look at the matter of fact (and abbreviated) treatment he gives his 'besting' of Ser Arthur Dayne to Bran.

The more you actually think about it, the less likely Ned becomes and the more likely Lyanna becomes - trending toward certainty IMO (I hold only 3 major theories (that I can think of at the moment) at over 90% - R+L=J at 99%, SL=AD at 90+% and KotLT=LS at 95% - most other things are much less straight forward than these).

[Vic-tarion Rattlehead]

Sorry to post again so soon, just found some of the blue roses references from GOT:

In the poppy dream (dream events are often not exact, but perhaps not totally induced by the poppy either, since the chapter begins, "He dreamt an old dream. . . "), at the moment he and the KG begin to fight, Ned "could hear Lyanna screaming. Eddard!. . . a storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death" (425).

In a second dream, he dreams of the crypts under Winterfell, and his family's tombs. "Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood" (501).

"Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost." Then he recalls Lyanna "Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers. . . " (631)

In the crypt, with Robert, visiting Lyanna's tomb: "He could hear her still at times, Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. . . when he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. . . . 'I bring her flowers when I can,' he said. 'Lyanna was. . . fond of flowers.' (43-44)

So far, it is the wiki that names the roses she is holding a 'wreath'. However, to be black at the point she's died, the petals would either have to be quite old and dried, or bloodstained, or both. Also, there is ambiguity in the dream--did Ned really hold the wreath in his hand and get cut by the thorns, or is it symbolic (or again, both)?

Perhaps Rhaegar also knew her fondness for flowers, and brought them to her. I find it more meaningful if she is holding the wreath that Rhaegar presented to her at the Tourney, when he crowned her the Queen of Love and Beauty. If she really did love him, she might have kept it, even in hiding, on the run. Lots of ladies keep wedding bouquets, and other gifts of this nature from significant others. And Ned always pictures her wearing the garland (Theon even dreams of the previous occupants of Winterfell, among them Lyanna wearing her crown of roses), so either Ned pictures L with the wreath of roses b/c of the tourney or b/c he sees it in her hand when she dies, thus he associates it with her, as he does her last words (Promise me). And she's hanging on to those petals until she's gone, definitely indicating her attachment to them. Just my thoughts.

As for Lyanna sharing her misgivings about Robert with Ned, check out page 379, outside the brothel: "The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face.

'Robert will never keep to one bed,' Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. 'I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.' Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely eny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their bethrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. 'Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature' (379).

In fact that entire chapter is interesting in its structure--lots of moments set up as comparisons between past/present, and lots of 7's and 3's as well (and a nice comparison between Robert and Rhaegar, who Ned muses wouldn't have patronized brothels). In the case of family vs bff's, how far does 'bros before hoes' apply (when it is his own sister?)

Now, that was one hell of a well written answer! I think, we'll just sit and wait untill GRRM will provide us with the real sollution.

[Vic-tarion Rattlehead]

But ASOIAF is a freaking fantasy novel. Perhaps you should stick to historical fiction?

And sometimes I do. But you can still have a hell of a great fantasy book, without having every now and then some fairy godmother or a witch on broomstick popping from behind every bog. If you add to much fable to a story, you'll end up with it turning into one of the two following possibilities: Harry Potter (in a worse case) or Discworld (in a best situation).

[King Jon Snow]

the KotLT could definitely bet ned...i mean aside from the short of stature thing...i think ned actuually heard his prayer and being "the quiet wolf " he just decided to try and save the day...that couldve been the beginnig of a great friendship

[King Jon Snow]

also i dont think there is anywhere Lynna couldve been to just get "kidnapped"

[Lady Hodor]

also i dont think there is anywhere Lynna couldve been to just get "kidnapped"

Not necessarily. She was independent and sort of a loner (like Arya) she might have wandered off aimlessly to be with her thoughts...

And then BAM! Lots of Targaryen soldiers all around.

[King Jon Snow]

Not necessarily. She was independent and sort of a loner (like Arya) she might have wandered off aimlessly to be with her thoughts...

And then BAM! Lots of Targaryen soldiers all around.

Tru but i think someone else said it but i do believe they could've gotten married

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Why all the Brandon Stark hate ?

 

Crackpot  theory ; Rhaegar had planned to kidnap Lyanna before the tourney at Harrenhal  but  Aerys and KOLT screwed everything up . There was never an attempt to dethrone Aerys by Rhaegar . 1 Rhaegar was all about prophecy  and 2. He never tried to dethrone him after .

And now back to the crackpot

Conspirator; Rhaegar ,Oswell Whent, Richard Lonmouth, Arthur and Ashara Dayne

The target ;Lyanna Stark

Goals ; Another wife or to disrupt a potential Stark ,Arryn, Tully ,Baratheon and Lanninister alliance .

A soiled maiden Rickard Stark could not wed her to any high lord .

Rhaegar first met Lyanna when she paid her respects to the Whents .

1 separate her from the rest of the wolves That is where Ashara Dayne comes in.(GOT Arya ; Edric Dayne to Arya ; Ashara Dayne knew Eddard and his brothers .They met at Harrenhal.)

2 . Meet Lyanna (Distract her fiancé . A drinking game between Robert Baratheon and Rhaegar's squire Richard Lonmouth. ) (Problem Howland Reed is in her tent )

3.The appearance of a mystery knight , arouse the paranoia of the king ,and if Lyanna was that mystery knight , her absence would not have gone unnoticed by Rhaegar .

4. The return of Lyanna and the disappearance of the mystery knight would not have gone unnoticed by Rhaegar but there is a problem not only she back under the protection of the Starks and king wants this mystery knight found and he sent Rhaegar out to find him .

5. Lyanna had won both her duel as the KOLT and that of the fair maiden of Winterfell and as a tipoff his hat he gave her a blue rose .

[UnViserion]

Why all the Brandon Stark hate ?

 

Because there is a reluctance by many here to recognize the integral part Rhaegar played in starting the war. Focusing on Brandon's hot-headedness shifts the blame more-so towards him, and subsequently Aerys.

[OuttaOldtown]

(This is presuming Lyanna went without consent and was in fact taken against her will.)

If my memory serves correctly, we are never told of the circumstances of Lyanna's disapearance.
We simply hear that she was kidnapped, not how, when, where, or by who (Rhaegar must have had help).
How could he have kidnapped a High Lord's daughter so easily?
Where was she? Winterfell? King's Landing? Either way, it shouldnt have been easy to take her.
Where the hell were her guards when he came? How did they get her away without someone noticing?
If Lyanna was in fact like Arya, she wouldnt have gone without a fight. Was there no evidence of it all?

Any theories? Contradictions? Evidence?

The prophecy relates to the dragon & the weirwood joining to produce TPtwP..