Theory about Sansa's true importance to Littlefinger

[Sandy Clegg]

Hello all

Apologies is this has been posted, although I did just spend an hour searching for it without success.

Anyway, here are my thoughts.

We know Littlefinger is one of the major players in the series, and while I was reading another thread (about Euron giving his Dragon Egg to the Faceless Men in payment for their assassination of Balon Greyjoy) I wondered about why the Faceless Men might need a dragon egg, not to mention their efforts to acquire the last Book of Dragons in Oldtown (see AFFC).Are they researching ways of killing dragons? Surely they would only do that if contracted to do so.

Then I wondered, who might have enough money to pay the Faceless Men to kill dragons and why. Which brings me to Littlefinger.

Littlefinger certainly must have a huge stash of money by now - all those multiplying Golden Dragons can't have been just for the Iron Throne's benefit, or Littlefinger is far less shrewd than we imagine him to be. What with all this wealth, his connections to Braavos and the Iron bank plus the dream foreshadowing of the Stone Giant, it looks like he is being set up as the ultimate non-Tagaryen player.

The thing with the Faceless Men, though, is that they require a sacrifice, not just (or is it instead of?) large sums of money. Maybe Sansa is the sacrifice that he intends to put up as payment for this contract? The daughter of the love of his life. What he intends to get out of this I can only speculate about... but being seen as the slayer of a dragon invasion would surely be more of a sure-fire way to get on the iron Throne than by arranging marriages. So Sansa is integral to his plans after all, just not in the way we all expect.

[Fire Eater]

I don't think so. He intends to take Sansa's maidenhead sometime soon. Littlefinger adapts to the way the game changes, and he would side with Dany if she is undoubtedly going to be the one who takes the Iron Throne with dragons, Littlefinger would trow in with her at a price.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I don't think so. He intends to take Sansa's maidenhead sometime soon. Littlefinger adapts to the way the game changes, and he would side with Dany if she is undoubtedly going to be the one who takes the Iron Throne with dragons, Littlefinger would trow in with her at a price.

I refuse to believe Dany has a prayer of sitting the Iron Throne. Between Euron's horn, faceless men, Sam's copy of The Death of Dragons, Blood Raven, Shadow Binders and assorted Wargs and Skin Changers.

[Raksha the Demon]

I don't think so. He intends to take Sansa's maidenhead sometime soon. Littlefinger adapts to the way the game changes, and he would side with Dany if she is undoubtedly going to be the one who takes the Iron Throne with dragons, Littlefinger would trow in with her at a price.

I doubt that LF intends to take Sansa's maidenhead anytime soon. He needs her married to Harry the Heir or another potential heir/lord of a great house. LF's best scenario would be Sansa marrying Harry with her maidenhead intact, producing a healthy son for Harry, then LF arranging a sad and fatal accident for Harry, SweetRobin dying, and LF stepping in to console the grieving widow by marrying her and raising the new little heir to the Vale as continued Lord Protector. LF has no personal claim to the Vale. I suppose he could also kill off Harry now and poison little Robert and try to get the crown to grant him the Eyrie as a lordship, but since LF is already Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, I doubt the Iron Throne would give him the Eyrie as well, too many eggs in one ambitious man's basket. But Littlefinger would get another 16-odd years of Lord Protectorship by marrying Sansa if she's got a trueborn baby by Harry.

I don't think Littlefinger is planning to gift Sansa to the Faceless Men as a personal sacrifice; he's making too much of a point in mentoring/teaching her. If he had planned all along to kill Sansa; he would just have made sure she had pretty dresses and was kept as ignorant as possible, and would have bedded her already.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Hello all

Apologies is this has been posted, although I did just spend an hour searching for it without success.

Anyway, here are my thoughts.

We know Littlefinger is one of the major players in the series, and while I was reading another thread (about Euron giving his Dragon Egg to the Faceless Men in payment for their assassination of Balon Greyjoy) I wondered about why the Faceless Men might need a dragon egg, not to mention their efforts to acquire the last Book of Dragons in Oldtown (see AFFC).Are they researching ways of killing dragons? Surely they would only do that if contracted to do so.

Then I wondered, who might have enough money to pay the Faceless Men to kill dragons and why. Which brings me to Littlefinger.

Littlefinger certainly must have a huge stash of money by now - all those multiplying Golden Dragons can't have been just for the Iron Throne's benefit, or Littlefinger is far less shrewd than we imagine him to be. What with all this wealth, his connections to Braavos and the Iron bank plus the dream foreshadowing of the Stone Giant, it looks like he is being set up as the ultimate non-Tagaryen player.

The thing with the Faceless Men, though, is that they require a sacrifice, not just (or is it instead of?) large sums of money. Maybe Sansa is the sacrifice that he intends to put up as payment for this contract? The daughter of the love of his life. What he intends to get out of this I can only speculate about... but being seen as the slayer of a dragon invasion would surely be more of a sure-fire way to get on the iron Throne than by arranging marriages. So Sansa is integral to his plans after all, just not in the way we all expect.

Uh no. The faceless men would kill any dragon on principle.

“The Lysene pirate? Some say he has returned to his old haunts, this is so. And Lord Redwyne’s war fleet creeps through the Broken Arm as well.

On its way home, no doubt. But these men and their ships are well-known to us. No, these other sails … from farther east, perhaps … one hears queer talk of dragons.”

“Would that we had one here. A dragon might warm things up a bit.”

“My lord jests. You will forgive me if I do not laugh.

We Braavosi are descended from those who fled Valyria and the wroth of its dragonlords. We do not jape of dragons.”

No, I suppose not. “My apologies, Lord Tycho.”

“Child,” he said, “come sit with me. I have a tale to tell you.”

“What kind of tale?” she asked, wary.

“The tale of our beginnings. If you would be one of us, you had best know who we are and how we came to be. Men may whisper of the Faceless Men of Braavos, but we are older than the Secret City. Before the Titan rose, before the Unmasking of Uthero, before the Founding, we were. We have flowered in Braavos amongst these northern fogs, but we first took root in Valyria, amongst the wretched slaves who toiled in the deep mines beneath the Fourteen Flames that lit the Freehold’s nights of old. Most mines are dank and chilly places, cut from cold dead stone, but the Fourteen Flames were living mountains with veins of molten rock and hearts of

fire. So the mines of old Valyria were always hot, and they grew hotter as the shafts were driven deeper, ever deeper. The slaves toiled in an oven. The rocks around them were too hot to touch. The air stank of brimstone and would sear their lungs as they breathed it. The soles of their feet would burn and blister, even through the thickest sandals. Sometimes, when they broke through a wall in search of gold, they would find steam instead, or boiling water, or molten rock. Certain shafts were cut so low that the slaves could not stand upright, but had to crawl or bend. And there were wyrms in that red darkness too.”

“Earthworms?” she asked, frowning.

“Firewyrms. Some say they are akin to dragons, for wyrms breathe fire too. Instead of soaring through the sky, they bore through stone and soil. If the old tales can be believed, there were wyrms amongst the Fourteen Flames even before the dragons came. The young ones are no larger than that skinny arm of yours, but they can grow to monstrous size and have no love for men.”

“Did they kill the slaves?”

“Burnt and blackened corpses were oft found in shafts where the rocks were cracked or full of holes. Yet still the mines drove deeper. Slaves perished by the score, but their masters did not care. Red gold and yellow gold and silver were reckoned to be more precious than the lives of slaves, for slaves were cheap in the old Freehold. During war, the Valyrians took them by the thousands. In times of peace they bred them, though only the worst were sent down to die in the red darkness.”

“Didn’t the slaves rise up and fight?”

“Some did,” he said. “Revolts were common in the mines, but few accomplished much. The dragonlords of the old Freehold were strong in sorcery, and lesser men defied them at their peril. The first Faceless Man was one who did.”

“Who was he?” Arya blurted, before she stopped to think.

“No one,” he answered. “Some say he was a slave himself. Others insist he was a freeholder’s son, born of noble stock. Some will even tell you he was an overseer who took pity on his charges. The truth is, no one knows. Whoever he was, he moved amongst the slaves and would hear them at their prayers. Men of a hundred different nations labored in the mines, and each prayed to his own god in his own tongue, yet all were praying for the same thing. It was release they asked for, an end to pain. A small thing, and simple. Yet their gods made no answer, and their suffering went on. Are their gods all deaf? he wondered... until a realization came upon him, one night in the red darkness.

“All gods have their instruments, men and women who serve them and help to work their will on earth. The slaves were not crying out to a hundred different gods, as it seemed, but to one god with a hundred different faces... and he was that god’s instrument. That very night he chose the most wretched of the slaves, the one who had prayed most earnestly for release, and freed him from his bondage. The first gift had been given.”

Arya drew back from him. “

He killed the slave?” That did not sound right. “He should have killed the

k

illed the masters!”

“He would bring the gift to them as well... but that is a tale for another day,

one best shared with no one.” He cocked his head. “And who are you, child?”

[YUNG LYANNA]

I doubt that LF intends to take Sansa's maidenhead anytime soon. He needs her married to Harry the Heir or another potential heir/lord of a great house. LF's best scenario would be Sansa marrying Harry with her maidenhead intact, producing a healthy son for Harry, then LF arranging a sad and fatal accident for Harry, SweetRobin dying, and LF stepping in to console the grieving widow by marrying her and raising the new little heir to the Vale as continued Lord Protector. LF has no personal claim to the Vale. I suppose he could also kill off Harry now and poison little Robert and try to get the crown to grant him the Eyrie as a lordship, but since LF is already Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, I doubt the Iron Throne would give him the Eyrie as well, too many eggs in one ambitious man's basket. But Littlefinger would get another 16-odd years of Lord Protectorship by marrying Sansa if she's got a trueborn baby by Harry.

I don't think Littlefinger is planning to gift Sansa to the Faceless Men as a personal sacrifice; he's making too much of a point in mentoring/teaching her. If he had planned all along to kill Sansa; he would just have made sure she had pretty dresses and was kept as ignorant as possible, and would have bedded her already.

i agree with you. with all his lusty feelings for sansa, i doubt her marriage will last very long. it seems to me that he wants sansa for himself... and what disturbs me deeply is that i fear she might succumb! i hope that by now she has learned to play along while maintaining a healthy suspicion.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I doubt that LF intends to take Sansa's maidenhead anytime soon. He needs her married to Harry the Heir

Oh come on. You can't actually believe that

or another potential heir/lord of a great house. LF's best scenario would be Sansa marrying Harry with her maidenhead intact, producing a healthy son for Harry, then LF arranging a sad and fatal accident for Harry

people keep saying this theory. I don't know who came up with it. It sounds like some shit that fat cheese monger or the hapless spider would come up with with. Its a horrible, horrible plan. And basically makes no sense whatsoever.

, SweetRobin dying, and LF stepping in to console the grieving widow by marrying her and raising the new little heir to the Vale as continued Lord Protector. LF has no personal claim to the Vale. I suppose he could also kill off Harry now and poison little Robert

Why would Littlefinger poison Robert Arryn?

“—she can wed Ty, provided old Lord Walder will consent. Yes, I’ve thought of that. A boy is just as likely, though, and his little cock would cloud the issue. And if Ser Brynden should survive this siege, he might be inclined to claim Riverrun in his own name... or in the name of young Robert Arryn.”

Jaime remembered little Robert from King’s Landing, still sucking on his mother’s teats at four. “Arryn won’t live long enough to breed.

And why should the Lord of the Eyrie need Riverrun?”

and try to get the crown to grant him the Eyrie as a lordship, but since LF is already Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, I doubt the Iron Throne would give him the Eyrie as well, too many eggs in one ambitious man's basket. But Littlefinger would get another 16-odd years of Lord Protectorship by marrying Sansa if she's got a trueborn baby by Harry.

[James Arryn]

I doubt that LF intends to take Sansa's maidenhead anytime soon. He needs her married to Harry the Heir or another potential heir/lord of a great house. LF's best scenario would be Sansa marrying Harry with her maidenhead intact, producing a healthy son for Harry, then LF arranging a sad and fatal accident for Harry, SweetRobin dying, and LF stepping in to console the grieving widow by marrying her and raising the new little heir to the Vale as continued Lord Protector. LF has no personal claim to the Vale. I suppose he could also kill off Harry now and poison little Robert and try to get the crown to grant him the Eyrie as a lordship, but since LF is already Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, I doubt the Iron Throne would give him the Eyrie as well, too many eggs in one ambitious man's basket. But Littlefinger would get another 16-odd years of Lord Protectorship by marrying Sansa if she's got a trueborn baby by Harry.

I don't think Littlefinger is planning to gift Sansa to the Faceless Men as a personal sacrifice; he's making too much of a point in mentoring/teaching her. If he had planned all along to kill Sansa; he would just have made sure she had pretty dresses and was kept as ignorant as possible, and would have bedded her already.

My problem with this kind of scenario is that he'd be an obvious murderer.

At this point his rule in the Vale needed some nice maneuvering, and this is without the Lords Delcarant suspecting him of murder. I think they mainly don't suspect him because he would seem, on the surface, to have lost his grip on power with Lysa's demise.

But if Harry and Robert follow Lysa in quick succession, with LF always there to take the reins, I think it begins to be too obvious. It may even be that his 'revelation' about Sansa's new identity will have people giving Lysa's death second thoughts. They will certainly realize that he's been scheming on some level.

Without any real power, he needs some power players on board. I think if he's still sitting there after 3 convenient deaths, that's in serious jeopardy.

[Ice Turtle]

I like the theory, but I don't think it's too real.

Anyway if LF really wanted FM to kill someone I think he would manipulate someone else to hire FM so he didn't need to pay the price himself.

[YUNG LYANNA]

My problem with this kind of scenario is that he'd be an obvious murderer.

At this point his rule in the Vale needed some nice maneuvering, and this is without the Lords Delcarant suspecting him of murder. I think they mainly don't suspect him because he would seem, on the surface, to have lost his grip on power with Lysa's demise.

But if Harry and Robert follow Lysa in quick succession, with LF always there to take the reins, I think it begins to be too obvious. Without any real power, he needs some power players on board. I think if he's still sitting there after 3 convenient deaths, that's in serious jeopardy.

OH, THAT. I still think wants to end up with Sansa as his bride in the long run, which is why I agreed with Rashka - but I also dont think he will poison or otherwise try to harm Lil Robert directly, he will just wait for him to die of his own accord. He tells Sansa, "not if, but when he dies" or something along those lines.

&&& I believe a clue of his wanting to marry Sansa is when he says that girls are always happiest with older men. I know that can apply to Harry as well & was his way of broaching the topic of their Sansa/Harry's future marriage but i def think it had a double meaning

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

OH, THAT. I still think wants to end up with Sansa as his bride in the long run, which is why I agreed with Rashka - but I also dont think he will poison or otherwise try to harm Lil Robert directly, he will just wait for him to die of his own accord. He tells Sansa, "not if, but when he dies" or something along those lines.

&&& I believe a clue of his wanting to marry Sansa is when he says that girls are always happiest with older men. I know that can apply to Harry as well & was his way of broaching the topic of their Sansa/Harry's future marriage but i def think it had a double meaning

That's excellent logic. Do you mind if I ask how do you know Jamie Lannister won't poison Robert Arryn first?

“—she can wed Ty, provided old Lord Walder will consent. Yes, I’ve thought of that. A boy is just as likely, though, and his little cock would cloud the issue. And if Ser Brynden should survive this siege, he might be inclined to claim Riverrun in his own name... or in the name of young Robert Arryn.”

Jaime remembered little Robert from King’s Landing, still sucking on his mother’s teats at four. “Arryn won’t live long enough to breed. And why should the Lord of the Eyrie need Riverrun?”

[Sandy Clegg]

I guess the main issue I have with all the marriage = LF power grab theories is that surely nobody in Westeros would take LF seriously as a king, no matter who he marries or doesn't marry. He just isn't king material. And being a power behind the throne is not the same as winning the game of thrones, at least that's not how I read the series. If we take the series as canon (and GRRM did work alongside the producers as advisor + sometime writer) then there is a significant scene of LF looking longingly at the throne, just before Varys walks in. He wants it, he just can't get it yet. Maybe he is working towards a scenario where the 7 kingdoms will be so financially messed up due to endless wars that he will be able to negotiate a place for himself at head of the table by power of coin alone.

[YUNG LYANNA]

That's excellent logic. Do you mind if I ask how do you know Jamie Lannister won't poison Robert Arryn first?

I don't - but I don't really have any inclination to think that Jamie would want to kill him either. IMO, the quote you used just shows how little regard Jamie has for Robyn. He was only worried about him in context to who would inherit Riverrun, & now that the Blackfish has escaped, he has reason to believe Riverrun's allegiance is secure under his uncle, Gemma's husband, that Frey (forgot his name). As far as the Lannisters are concerned, they arent really worried about the Vale. Cersei dismisses the fact that the Lords of Declerant are unhappy with LF as Lord Protector, as long as they don't pose any threat to Tommen on the Iron Throne.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I don't - but I don't really have any inclination to think that Jamie would want to kill him either. IMO, the quote you used just shows how little regard Jamie has for Robyn. He was only worried about him in context to who would inherit Riverrun, & now that the Blackfish has escaped, he has reason to believe Riverrun's allegiance is secure under his uncle, Gemma's husband, that Frey (forgot his name). As far as the Lannisters are concerned, they arent really worried about the Vale. Cersei dismisses the fact that the Lords of Declerant are unhappy with LF as Lord Protector, as long as they don't pose any threat to Tommen on the Iron Throne.

No the quote just shows anyone who has met Robert Arryn thinks he's sickly and likely to die sooner rather than later. Riverrun has nothing to do with it.

Not that Petyr would have an qualms about killing him. But he almost fell off the mountain at the end of Feast For Crows. He's not going to survive either way.

[Eyron]

Sansa believes that Robert is being poisoned already. And from what medicine he is getting, he probably is.

[Lady Kraken]

That's excellent logic. Do you mind if I ask how do you know Jamie Lannister won't poison Robert Arryn first?

You're missing the poster's point a bit, I think. The quotation the poster is referring to does reveal that Petyr counts on Robert dying at some point and is making plans with that in mind. He very well could believe that Robert will die from natural causes without his intervention or perhaps he believes the sweetsleep will subtly help it on a bit or maybe he plans on killing him himself, but he's still counting on him not being alive. If Robert miraculously makes it into adulthood (which is possible), do see Petyr allowing him to live? I'm curious. Though I agree that the quotation from Jaime does reinforce Robert's already poor health, the context is quite different.

And another thing, we've learned that Petyr asked Cersei to marry Sansa early on, so I think it's rather clear that's what he wants, at least in the end. I saw that you disagreed with Raksha's thoughts, do you think the marriage to Harry is a ruse then? What do you think his actual plan is?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

You're missing the poster's point a bit, I think. The quotation the poster is referring to does reveal that Petyr counts on Robert dying at some point and is making plans with that in mind. He very well could believe that Robert will die from natural causes without his intervention or perhaps he believes the sweetsleep will subtly help it on a bit or maybe he plans on killing him himself, but he's still counting on him not being alive. If Robert miraculously makes it into adulthood (which is possible), do see Petyr allowing him to live? I'm curious. Though I agree that the quotation from Jaime does reinforce Robert's already poor health, the context is quite different.

And another thing, we've learned that Petyr asked Cersei to marry Sansa early on, so I think it's rather clear that's what he wants, at least in the end. I saw that you disagreed with Raksha's thoughts, do you think the marriage to Harry is a ruse then? What do you think his actual plan is?

No the quote just shows anyone who has met Robert Arryn thinks he's sickly and likely to die sooner rather than later. Riverrun has nothing to do with it.

Not that Petyr would have an qualms about killing him. But he almost fell off the mountain at the end of Feast For Crows. He's not going to survive either way.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Sansa believes that Robert is being poisoned already. And from what medicine he is getting, he probably is.

where does it say that?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

You're missing the poster's point a bit, I think. The quotation the poster is referring to does reveal that Petyr counts on Robert dying at some point and is making plans with that in mind. He very well could believe that Robert will die from natural causes without his intervention or perhaps he believes the sweetsleep will subtly help it on a bit or maybe he plans on killing him himself, but he's still counting on him not being alive. If Robert miraculously makes it into adulthood (which is possible), do see Petyr allowing him to live? I'm curious. Though I agree that the quotation from Jaime does reinforce Robert's already poor health, the context is quite different.

And another thing, we've learned that Petyr asked Cersei to marry Sansa early on, so I think it's rather clear that's what he wants, at least in the end. I saw that you disagreed with Raksha's thoughts, do you think the marriage to Harry is a ruse then? What do you think his actual plan is?

I have no idea what his plan is... To take over the world?

But I know the aforementioned plan is shitty.

[YUNG LYANNA]

The maester told her the effects of sweetsleep, didnt he?

My point is not that LF doesn't want Robert dead - it's that since everyone assumes he is going to die eventually anyways, that LF may be content to just let iit happen on its own.