Sensitive Topic

[Howling Mad]

I wouldn't put the events in that order: Hoster aborted the child first - it was i) a bastard and ii) the child of a father unsuitable for insisting on a hasty marriage (Petyr initially got sent away for challenging Brandon over Cat in defiance of Hoster's wishes then compounded his shame by sleeping with Lysa).

It was then that Hoster felt he had to make a match for Lysa and as soon as possble. He chose Jon as her husband because he could force him into taking her to make the military alliance despite her situation but no highborn lord not desperate for alliance would have taken her. In making such a quick marriage for Lysa to a well-born man Hoster would have felt that he was doing his best best for her as her father (not condemning her to life as an unmarried maid or marrying her off to a man too lowborn to properly provide for her).

If she hadn't made the choice to sleep with Petyr (which by the standards of her society was dishonouring herself and she knew it) then Hoster would have had more options in making a marriage for her. As her father and head of the House Hoster would have still been the one to select Lysa's potential husbands, but he may have offered her right of refusal or allowed her to choose her preference - we'll never know.

Did Hoster Tully make a profound error in allowing LF to live? Surely, let's say stautory, rape of the Lord Paramounts daughter could have justifed a death penalty offense.

ETA Throw in the fact that he tried to wed and bed your oldest daughter too, why let the little snot live?

[CurP]

I really don't think I could ever see a Sansa-LF sex scene as consensual. The power he has over her, along with his sick manipulations and mind games actively negates the idea that she could ever be a willing, consenting partner with him. It's more important to analyse the factors that leads one to say yes to sex, rather than simply placing all the emphasis on that agreement.

I agree. And I think above applies to Danny with Khal Drogo as well.

[Castel]

Did Hoster Tully make a profound error in allowing LF to live? Surely, let's say stautory, rape of the Lord Paramounts daughter could have justifed a death penalty offense.

Statutory rape? In Westeros? I don't think there is such a thing. And wasn't LF the one raped? But hell, I don't think that Lysa would have kept silent on the issue. If she told him the circumstances and the fact that she was willing I doubt he would just kill him.

[Howling Mad]

Statutory rape? In Westeros? I don't think there is such a thing. And wasn't LF the one raped? But hell, I don't think that Lysa would have kept silent on the issue. If she told him the circumstances and the fact that she was willing I doubt he would just kill him.

The point is why allow LF to live after he has dishonored both your daughters?

ETA Lord Hoster "Family, Duty, Honor" Tully should have cutt off LF's cock fed it to the goats and sent LF packing to the wall.

[Winter's Knight]

The point is why allow LF to live after he has dishonored both your daughters?

Because formication is not a crime and Petyr was not a part of the smallfolk.

[Howling Mad]

Because formication is not a crime and Petyr was not a part of the smallfolk.

Really? I think Brandon Stark would beg to differ.

[Winter's Knight]

Really? I think Brandon Stark would beg to differ.

There is a difference between accepting a challenge and outright murdering a member of the landed gentry.

[Castel]

The point is why allow LF to live after he has dishonored both your daughters?

ETA Lord Hoster "Family, Duty, Honor" Tully should have cutt off LF's cock fed it to the goats and sent LF packing to the wall.

Maybe he wasn't a barbarian. Despite social mores it's quite possible a reasonable man would look at the situation and realise that that is not the best path. This is ignoring the fact that Petyr has dined at their table and slept under their roof. Guest right aside, he was perhaps fond of him and even if he wasn't, you don't just kill members of the nobility, no matter how mean. At best there would have to have been a trial, which would only spread the news.

[ARYa_Nym]

I have a male cousin who works in a rehabilitation facility for sexual predators who've commited sexual crimes against both genders of all age groups. I asked my male cousin today what he did to protect himself against being sexually violated. He's a highly educated fellow who has intimate knowledge of the crimes of each patient in the unit and he works closely with them. He's also very aware that some of his co-employees, both male and female, have been sexually violated by the inmates. He literally laughed at my question and scoffed at the idea that he, a man, could fall victim to such crime, even when surrounded by evidence that it could very well happen. What's more, most of the safety training employees go through is geared towards female employees protecting themselves. Boggled my mind.

The point of me telling this story is that males are more likely to refuse that sexual violence could happen to their gender even when they have very clear evidence that it occurs. If one refuses to acknowledge the existence of something, one can not warn another about it. (I quoted another bastard below as s/he offered some valid reasons why male sexual crimes aren't as acknowledged) Yoren and my cousin seem to have a lot in common with regards to this.

Still, Yoren did warn Arya in a way. He was warning a girl posing as a boy, but she was still a girl. She could be found out, after all. She might have subconsciously slept closer to those she trusted, kept Needle at the ready, etc. That Yoren didn't warn any of the actual boys in the group is most telling that he refuses to acknowledge aloud that it happens even when all of the evidence exists in Rorge and Biter chained up.

:agree:

This thread has been so interesting as it has opened a fascinating debate how we modern folk consider gender differences when discussing sexual violence. Some have brought up that some of the consummation could have been rape against the woman if the woman did not desire the marriage partner. Why don't we consider the men not desiring their arranged wives being victims of rape just because the male possesses more power both physically and politically? It's been suitably argued in this thread that each party had alternative choices that may or may not have been as desirable as the offered marriage. We've seen that alternative choices within a feudal society can have negative consequences (see Lyanna, Robb, Brynden...). Even very powerful Lords and Kings aren't exempt when their choices misalign with the needs and goals of their vassals.

Ned didn't want to marry Cat so why would we think that he wanted to consummate the marriage? Ned's choice to honor his family's betrothal contract led him to a bed he was in only out of duty to his people and cause. If duty was what brought him to the bed, same as it brought Catelyn, why do we only consider Cat being the one potentially raped? Do we just see all males as simple-minded, eager sex fiends who will fuck whatever vagina is put in front of them?

Yoren did warn all of them but it wasn't anything specific like Rorge would rape them then Biter would eat them. They were probably given a general warning that they were dangerous.

"Arya edged back away from the wagon. When she felt a hand on her shoulder, she whirled, bringing her up her stick sword again, but it was only the Bull. "What are you doing?" He raised his hands defensively. "Yoren said none of us should go near those three." "They don't scare me," Arya said. "Then you're stupid. They scare me."

IDK if it's evidence that he is in denial or if it's just a matter of GRRM not bringing up the fact that sexual violence against males in the NW would be much more common. GRRM barely brought up homosexuality which is different but is another thing that should be more common. I remember there was one instance where a NW member got too emotional when another one died so he was probably gay and then there's Satin.

Everybody is different though. Some may be oblivious to what is going on, some pretend it's not happening, and others do know but are hush hush about it. It's possible that Yoren thought that Rorge would just brutally murder the boys but I can't confirm this so it's hard to determine whether he's just in denial or if he's just oblivious.

Your second point is interesting. Lady Dustin said that Brandon didn't want to marry Catelyn. Ned may have initially felt the same way.

"He spoke courteously enough, but beneath the words she sensed a coolness that was all at odds with Brandon...Even when he took her maidenhood, their love had more duty to it than passion."

It took a while for them to warm up to each other. I wouldn't call it rape for either parties but I would say that they both had to make do with the situation that they were put in and eventually it became a loving relationship.

[Dr. Pepper]

Seems so. I have literally been told that men cannot be raped if it is a hot girl. Yes, any relationship or belief he has is totally meaningless; he'd give it up for a hot girl so it doesn't matter if she ties him up and rapes him. Besides that, it's the patriarchy at work again, men are strong, if someone had sex with them, it was probably because they wanted it to happen.

Exactly! I have only been reading these forums for a few months and been an active participant for a few weeks, so I may have missed a lot of debate. But from what I have read, Littlefinger is hardly ever brought up as a victim of rape. Did Lysa not rape him? He was drunk and unable to give consent. He's now spent nearly two decades either denying that it occured, confused about what exactly happened, or lying about what happened. This seems like fairly textbook post-violation behavior. I think we'd be much quicker to identify and accept this as rape if Littlefinger were a woman and Lysa were a man.

Yoren did warn all of them but it wasn't anything specific like Rorge would rape them then Biter would eat them. They were probably given a general warning that they were dangerous.

IDK if it's evidence that he is in denial or if it's just a matter of GRRM not bringing up the fact that sexual violence against males in the NW would be much more common. GRRM barely brought up homosexuality which is different but is another thing that should be more common. I remember there was one instance where a NW member got too emotional when another one died so he was probably gay and then there's Satin.

That's the point I'm making. Yoren gave Arya, a girl (she's a girl even if she's posing as a boy) a specific warning while giving the actual boys a general warning. If Yoren hadn't been informed she was a girl when he first met her, I don't think he would have given her that specific warning. I think that GRRM doing this is injects quite a bit of realism into the story because that's the way it works in the real world.

To be honest, I'm very uncomfortable bringing homosexuality (which is brought into the story quite a bit) when discussing sexual crime and rape. I'm not exactly sure the point you are trying to make.

Everybody is different though. Some may be oblivious to what is going on, some pretend it's not happening, and others do know but are hush hush about it. It's possible that Yoren thought that Rorge would just brutally murder the boys but I can't confirm this so it's hard to determine whether he's just in denial or if he's just oblivious.

Yup, definitely hard to confirm without having a Yoren or Rorge POV. But we have other male POVs who've subtly suggested they've been violated. Let's look at Aeron Damphair. If the hints are true, then he should be warning all of those supporting Euron that Euron commits these types of crimes. Furthermore, if we believe that Damphair being violated has negatively affected and haunted him throughout his life, then why isn't he preaching against the pillaging culture of the ironborn? Theon is the only Greyjoy male who punishes rapers. And speaking of Theon, even he refuses to fully think about what might have happened with his penis.

I'm not saying that everything GRRM writes has a direct meaning or that he consciously inserts these bits of realism, but I do think he does more so than not. James Arryn pointed out upthread that males are half today are half as likely to report sexual crimes and more likely to commit suicide. We get more female POV and general characters talking and thinking specifically about sexual violations than male POV and general characters. It's how it happens in the real world.

Your second point is interesting. Lady Dustin said that Brandon didn't want to marry Catelyn. Ned may have initially felt the same way.

It took a while for them to warm up to each other. I wouldn't call it rape for either parties but I would say that they both had to make do with the situation that they were put in and eventually it became a loving relationship.

I wouldn't call it rape for either party either. I just think that we should acknowledge that neither party in an arranged marriage are immune from the feeling of violation.

[Winter's Knight]

Exactly! I have only been reading these forums for a few months and been an active participant for a few weeks, so I may have missed a lot of debate. But from what I have read, Littlefinger is hardly ever brought up as a victim of rape. Did Lysa not rape him? He was drunk and unable to give consent. He's now spent nearly two decades either denying that it occured, confused about what exactly happened, or lying about what happened. This seems like fairly textbook post-violation behavior. I think we'd be much quicker to identify and accept this as rape if Littlefinger were a woman and Lysa were a man.

That's the point I'm making. Yoren gave Arya, a girl (she's a girl even if she's posing as a boy) a specific warning while giving the actual boys a general warning. If Yoren hadn't been informed she was a girl when he first met her, I don't think he would have given her that specific warning. I think that GRRM doing this is injects quite a bit of realism into the story because that's the way it works in the real world.

To be honest, I'm very uncomfortable bringing homosexuality (which is brought into the story quite a bit) when discussing sexual crime and rape. I'm not exactly sure the point you are trying to make.

Yup, definitely hard to confirm without having a Yoren or Rorge POV. But we have other male POVs who've subtly suggested they've been violated. Let's look at Aeron Damphair. If the hints are true, then he should be warning all of those supporting Euron that Euron commits these types of crimes. Furthermore, if we believe that Damphair being violated has negatively affected and haunted him throughout his life, then why isn't he preaching against the pillaging culture of the ironborn? Theon is the only Greyjoy male who punishes rapers. And speaking of Theon, even he refuses to fully think about what might have happened with his penis.

I'm not saying that everything GRRM writes has a direct meaning or that he consciously inserts these bits of realism, but I do think he does more so than not. James Arryn pointed out upthread that males are half today are half as likely to report sexual crimes and more likely to commit suicide. We get more female POV and general characters talking and thinking specifically about sexual violations than male POV and general characters. It's how it happens in the real world.

I wouldn't call it rape for either party either. I just think that we should acknowledge that neither party in an arranged marriage are immune from the feeling of violation.

Re: Lf and Lysa-on the few occasions I remember it being brought up, it was considered rape.

[Lyanna Stark]

Exactly! I have only been reading these forums for a few months and been an active participant for a few weeks, so I may have missed a lot of debate. But from what I have read, Littlefinger is hardly ever brought up as a victim of rape. Did Lysa not rape him? He was drunk and unable to give consent. He's now spent nearly two decades either denying that it occured, confused about what exactly happened, or lying about what happened. This seems like fairly textbook post-violation behavior. I think we'd be much quicker to identify and accept this as rape if Littlefinger were a woman and Lysa were a man.

The first LF thought it was Cat, not Lysa (although I don't know if Lysa was playing into this deception or whether LF was just too drugged to understand who it really was). LF certainly seemed to remember it fondly, as he waxes lyrically about it. I guess it depends on how it played out. If LF was gone in the head enough to think it was Cat, but Lysa never tried to deceive him, then he didn't technically consent to have sex with Lysa, but with Cat, which would make it a problem of consent given to the wrong person. He did however as pointed out not disagree with the act itself.

Later on he also had sex with Lysa knowing full well it was Lysa, so he obviously didn't have a problem shagging Lysa either.

I'm not sure we have enough information to decide whether it was or not, as we don't know whether Lysa tried to deceive him regarding her identity and pressure him into it thinking she was Cat.

[Castel]

The first LF thought it was Cat, not Lysa (although I don't know if Lysa was playing into this deception or whether LF was just too drugged to understand who it really was). LF certainly seemed to remember it fondly, as he waxes lyrically about it. I guess it depends on how it played out. If LF was gone in the head enough to think it was Cat, but Lysa never tried to deceive him, then he didn't technically consent to have sex with Lysa, but with Cat, which would make it a problem of consent given to the wrong person. He did however as pointed out not disagree with the act itself.

Later on he also had sex with Lysa knowing full well it was Lysa, so he obviously didn't have a problem shagging Lysa either.

I'm not sure we have enough information to decide whether it was or not, as we don't know whether Lysa tried to deceive him regarding her identity and pressure him into it thinking she was Cat.

If I recall, LF was drugged out of his mind the first time, drugged enough to think that Lysa was Cat. Which is why he later claimed that he had had sex with both of them.

Either way, he didn't consent to having sex with Lysa that first time.

[Dr. Pepper]

The first LF thought it was Cat, not Lysa (although I don't know if Lysa was playing into this deception or whether LF was just too drugged to understand who it really was). LF certainly seemed to remember it fondly, as he waxes lyrically about it. I guess it depends on how it played out. If LF was gone in the head enough to think it was Cat, but Lysa never tried to deceive him, then he didn't technically consent to have sex with Lysa, but with Cat, which would make it a problem of consent given to the wrong person. He did however as pointed out not disagree with the act itself.

Later on he also had sex with Lysa knowing full well it was Lysa, so he obviously didn't have a problem shagging Lysa either.

I'm not sure we have enough information to decide whether it was or not, as we don't know whether Lysa tried to deceive him regarding her identity and pressure him into it thinking she was Cat.

What?!?!? Let's totally disregard the fact that Petyr nearly two decades later, Petyr used Lysa in his schemes, had her kill her husband, married her in a play for power, then killed her without an ounce of remorse when she threatened to jeopardize his plans. Even disregarding that, having consensual sex with your rapist does not invalidate the rape. Even if it had actually been Cat who'd gone to Littlefinger, it's still a violation of sorts to have sex with a person who is so drugged and drunk that they can barely even move.

[ARYa_Nym]

That's the point I'm making. Yoren gave Arya, a girl (she's a girl even if she's posing as a boy) a specific warning while giving the actual boys a general warning. If Yoren hadn't been informed she was a girl when he first met her, I don't think he would have given her that specific warning. I think that GRRM doing this is injects quite a bit of realism into the story because that's the way it works in the real world.

To be honest, I'm very uncomfortable bringing homosexuality (which is brought into the story quite a bit) when discussing sexual crime and rape. I'm not exactly sure the point you are trying to make.

Yup, definitely hard to confirm without having a Yoren or Rorge POV. But we have other male POVs who've subtly suggested they've been violated. Let's look at Aeron Damphair. If the hints are true, then he should be warning all of those supporting Euron that Euron commits these types of crimes. Furthermore, if we believe that Damphair being violated has negatively affected and haunted him throughout his life, then why isn't he preaching against the pillaging culture of the ironborn? Theon is the only Greyjoy male who punishes rapers. And speaking of Theon, even he refuses to fully think about what might have happened with his penis.

I'm not saying that everything GRRM writes has a direct meaning or that he consciously inserts these bits of realism, but I do think he does more so than not. James Arryn pointed out upthread that males are half today are half as likely to report sexual crimes and more likely to commit suicide. We get more female POV and general characters talking and thinking specifically about sexual violations than male POV and general characters. It's how it happens in the real world.

I wasn't implying that homosexuality and sexual violence against males are equal to each other just that these are two areas where I think they should be more prevalent in the NW to make it more realistic. Basically, I don't think sexual violence against males in the NW is the only lacking area.

Back on topic, the only case of sexual violence in the NW that I remember, (there could be more that I don't remember) is Danny Flint and she was a female posing as a boy. Danny Flint shouldn't be the only case if she in fact is. So Yoren would have this opinion if he has not been exposed it. I think it should be more common in the NW to make things more realistic.

I actually just remembered one instance where Pyp said that he was propositioned by a superior in a way that sounded like harassment but this may have only been on the show so it wouldn't really count. I'd have to go back and check. This type of thing should happen more often though but it's probably not openly discussed. I think that some would probably know which person is likely to do this due to rumors or first-hand information.

Many people may not take it seriously but I don't think the majority of people IRL have the opinion that boys can't be raped by grown men. Depending on where they live there have been high profile news stories surrounding this very subject. Some of them may not be sympathetic but I don't think it means that they don't believe it happened.

I can't say much about Damphair especially since it's not yet confirmed. People don't react the same way to traumatic events that happens to them. It depends on the person. Perhaps he's like Victarion and thinks that Euron will just be able to get away with the things he did.

[Morrigan]

I mean Daenerys is the kind of person who can geld someone with a single look, so I never imagined that anybody would try to rape her. First there was Drogo who would have protected her and then she was the Dragon Queen and everyone was pissing themselves when she walked by with her dragons. Arya is practically a kid, so that's not a great wonder she wasn't raped either. She is grey, she always blended in everywhere, she's quick and surprisingly deadly. Plus she made friends incredibly easily who would not have let such thing happen to her (Gendry, that man with the cod fish, innkeeps, Yoren, etc). My problem is with Brienne and Sansa. The fact that Brienne is still a virgin hanging around with men all the time who mock her and hate her for playing a man herself... that's rather unbelievable. I mean to get out of Renly's camp safe and sound and from the brave companions... that's... unrealistic.

Why are the other situations less unrealistic than Brienne's, considering Brienne is built like a tank and can cut down any man who tries to lay hands on her? It's not unrealistic to assume that those who'd want to gang-rape her (and they know they'd have to be several against her to subdue her) in the first place wouldn't consider her humiliation worth the risk to their person.

Asha and Qarl at Pyke? That was technically rape, even if she began to like it towards the end.

Uhhh not even close. It was clearly role-playing... come on now. :shocked:

[Lyanna Stark]

What?!?!? Let's totally disregard the fact that Petyr nearly two decades later, Petyr used Lysa in his schemes, had her kill her husband, married her in a play for power, then killed her without an ounce of remorse when she threatened to jeopardize his plans. Even disregarding that, having consensual sex with your rapist does not invalidate the rape. Even if it had actually been Cat who'd gone to Littlefinger, it's still a violation of sorts to have sex with a person who is so drugged and drunk that they can barely even move.

Did I say it invalidates rape? No.

I said we do not have enough information to tell. That's totally different.

For all we know, Lysa might have been convinced Petyr thought he was having sex with her, consensually. Petyr was convinced Lysa was Cat, and had consensual sex with Cat. Only WE know it was Lysa. The problem is one of consent, and to whom it was given to. And whether you would argue that Petyr was not in a state to give consent. For all we know, he might have been fine giving consent to Lysa as well, he certainly did not seem averse to the idea.

As it is: we cannot know, since we cannot know if Lysa deceived him since she thought Petyr would not like to have her, or if it was a miscommunication. For all we know, Lysa may have been convinced he was consenting to have her.

Had this been a trial and we could have been a fly on the wall, I think we would be able to tell. As it is, it may very have been, but we do not have the information to say so.

If you want to argue that Petyr technically could not give consent because he was inebriated, then sure, that works, but the it would have been rape regardless if it had been Cat OR Lysa, which is certainly a valid approach to take. However then we land in a territory when even if neither part looked at is as rape and nobody is interested in pursuing a complaint about it, it is still technically rape since the party (or parties) was too inebriated to be able to give consent. It doesn't seem as if LF looks on it as rape himself, but of course he doesn't know it was Lysa. Until someone tells him, I guess we'll never know.

[Evamitchelle]

Did I say it invalidates rape? No.

I said we do not have enough information to tell. That's totally different.

For all we know, Lysa might have been convinced Petyr thought he was having sex with her, consensually. Petyr was convinced Lysa was Cat, and had consensual sex with Cat. Only WE know it was Lysa. The problem is one of consent, and to whom it was given to. And whether you would argue that Petyr was not in a state to give consent. For all we know, he might have been fine giving consent to Lysa as well, he certainly did not seem averse to the idea.

As it is: we cannot know, since we cannot know if Lysa deceived him since she thought Petyr would not like to have her, or if it was a miscommunication. For all we know, Lysa may have been convinced he was consenting to have her.

Had this been a trial and we could have been a fly on the wall, I think we would be able to tell. As it is, it may very have been, but we do not have the information to say so.

If you want to argue that Petyr technically could not give consent because he was inebriated, then sure, that works, but the it would have been rape regardless if it had been Cat OR Lysa, which is certainly a valid approach to take. However then we land in a territory when even if neither part looked at is as rape and nobody is interested in pursuing a complaint about it, it is still technically rape since the party (or parties) was too inebriated to be able to give consent. It doesn't seem as if LF looks on it as rape himself, but of course he doesn't know it was Lysa. Until someone tells him, I guess we'll never know.

IMO that situation is clearly rape because Petyr was much too drunk to consent (he passed out on the table and couldn't even walk by himself), but I agree that there isn't enough information to determine categorically if Lysa herself is a rapist. I'm leaning towards yes, because it looks to me like she waited until he was at blackout levels of drunkenness to make her move on him, but I'll admit that there's room for doubt in this situation (especially since the only POVs we have of that night are those of consummate liar Littlefinger and Lysa in her last, hysterical moments).