[TWOW Spoiler] Night's King - A Turn From Fire to Ice: The Story of Stannis Baratheon

[iamthedave]

Wasn't it both Kettleblacks? but I think i get the gist of it in there, now.

On Topic, I really see Stannis turning to the Dark Side, as he is easily swayed torwards power. The Old Gods would seem to have very little to offer. Melisandre has misled herself about the Old Gods, too, and I can see her in opposition. It sure makes sense to me.

I hardly think describing him as 'easily' swayed is at all a fair analysis. Melissandre was his court wizard, like Merlin with more burnination. He treated her coldly for a long time until he received repeated examples of her magic working, magic which won him an army and ended a siege in a day. And he still resisted almost everything she said if it at all deviated from what he wanted.

Stannis is practical. If something works, he's not going to throw it away. He turned to the Red God out of pure pragmatism.

He came to the North to, if I remember correctly, save his realm instead of own it. I can't remember the exact phrase, but it was due to what Davos told him.

And Stannis has always stuck to doing things his way, and never altered his goals or purpose, no matter how hard Mel herself pushed him. He's one of the least easily swayed people in the entire series. In fact, that's almost his defining feature. This is the man who, rather than give up in a siege, fell back on eating rats.

In short, Stannis shows far more heroic traits than most other characters in the series. He is - as he said - the only one trying to save the realm instead of own it right now. He's more or less crusading around the North righting wrongs before he sets his sights on the Iron Throne. If the Others turn up he'll view them as what they are, an enemy to be defeated, and he'll stick out his Stannis chin and tell them to take their best shot.

The only way he could 'turn to the dark side' is if he dies and is resurrected as some sort of super wight. We have lots of UnPeople around these days, so I don't see why that's out of the question.

[Babeldygob]

I do not think it was said about Stannis. The vision of a king consumed by fire of his own crown fits Viserys better.

Stannis said it himself. And it was in Clash of Kings, so Viserys was dead for a long time. It may be him, but I think the crown of fire fits Stannis as well.

[Babeldygob]

I hardly think describing him as 'easily' swayed is at all a fair analysis. Melissandre was his court wizard, like Merlin with more burnination. He treated her coldly for a long time until he received repeated examples of her magic working, magic which won him an army and ended a siege in a day. And he still resisted almost everything she said if it at all deviated from what he wanted.

Stannis is practical. If something works, he's not going to throw it away. He turned to the Red God out of pure pragmatism.

He came to the North to, if I remember correctly, save his realm instead of own it. I can't remember the exact phrase, but it was due to what Davos told him.

And Stannis has always stuck to doing things his way, and never altered his goals or purpose, no matter how hard Mel herself pushed him. He's one of the least easily swayed people in the entire series. In fact, that's almost his defining feature. This is the man who, rather than give up in a siege, fell back on eating rats.

In short, Stannis shows far more heroic traits than most other characters in the series. He is - as he said - the only one trying to save the realm instead of own it right now. He's more or less crusading around the North righting wrongs before he sets his sights on the Iron Throne. If the Others turn up he'll view them as what they are, an enemy to be defeated, and he'll stick out his Stannis chin and tell them to take their best shot.

The only way he could 'turn to the dark side' is if he dies and is resurrected as some sort of super wight. We have lots of UnPeople around these days, so I don't see why that's out of the question.

You're right in many ways. Except I disagree when you say that Stannis would rather save the realm than sit the Iron Throne. I think it's clear that Stannis turned North to show the realm that he was the true king by taking on the real threat. I don't think he did it because he wanted to save the realm, I think he wanted to save the realm so that people would follow him and he would gain more power. It worked for a small part. He gained the allegiance of some northern lords. Like you said, Stannis is a practical man. He saw it as a tool rather than his goal.

[hiraeth]

I assumed those companies were the best and largest Essos had to offer.

And Stannis is a better King then All the other pretenders COMBINED. It's a time of war,war is gritty and dark, so what if stannis killed renly,he made a strategic brilliant move and shattered Renly and his false claim while saving himself from a possible slaughter from renly. Basically Stannis struck first before Renly did,it's war.

And Roose Bolton rapes ppl, Stannis punishes Rapists.

Stannis did what he had to do against Renly, it was him or Renly - Renly was a pretender with not such a strong claim - the manner in which Stannis had him killed was awful, but, remember, it was only Renly who died, not numerous innocent (or less innocent) people in the field of battle... I am not a strong Stannis supporter, but I do not hate him, I quite like his dry sense of humour, his practicality, his reluctance to kill more people than necessary (in his oppinion). I just don't see Stannis as a Shakespearean tragic hero who desintegrates and becomes the Night's King bent on revenge on the whole continent... He's too unimaginative and too practical (in his own way) for that...

[TheDarkOne]

He's too unimaginative and too practical (in his own way) for that...

Exactly what has shown him to be unimaginative and what would this have to do with him turning?

One second you say he is a guy who does what he has to do to become King, but when it comes to joining the others that would be off the table? You have contradicted yourself in the sum of a single paragraph.

[hiraeth]

Exactly what has shown him to be unimaginative and what would this have to do with him turning?

One second you say he is a guy who does what he has to do to become King, but when it comes to joining the others that would be off the table? You have contradicted yourself in the sum of a single paragraph.

No, one second I say he is a guy who does what he has to do to survive, but when it comes to joining the Others that would be off the table because, IMHO, Stannis is too practical and utilitarian to succumb to the notion of becoming a Night's King - he is not a person ruled by his passions, and the original Night's King became Night's King because of his passion towards a woman... Add to that he's sense of humour and righteousness, I simply don't see him succumbing to whatever feeling needed to strike a deal with the Others... On the other hand, people criticise Stannis for killing Renly - what about Renly and his young host ornamented with flowers... Renly would have fought with Stannis and his forces, which would inevitably have brought death or mutilation to many people, on both sides...

[TheDarkOne]

No, one second I say he is a guy who does what he has to do to survive, but when it comes to joining the Others that would be off the table because, IMHO, Stannis is too practical and utilitarian to succumb to the notion of becoming a Night's King - he is not a person ruled by his passions, and the original Night's King became Night's King because of his passion towards a woman... Add to that he's sense of humour and righteousness, I simply don't see him succumbing to whatever feeling needed to strike a deal with the Others... On the other hand, people criticise Stannis for killing Renly - what about Renly and his young host ornamented with flowers... Renly would have fought with Stannis and his forces, which would inevitably have brought death or mutilation to many people, on both sides...

I guess you do make a good point. It's not like he has ever let a woman with an agenda influence his actions, turn him toward a different faith, kill his own brother, and lead him down a dark path. We certainly have never seen that with Stannis.

[Tetrarch42]

Please don't let it be true.

I just want Stannis to assume the Iron Throne and dump that nest of vipers that is King's Landing into a fire.

[MtnLion]

Please don't let it be true.

I just want Stannis to assume the Iron Throne and dump that nest of vipers that is King's Landing into a fire.

He is too practical to kill everyone in King's Landing. :P

[Tini]

Stannis said it himself. And it was in Clash of Kings, so Viserys was dead for a long time. It may be him, but I think the crown of fire fits Stannis as well.

Stannis gave his own interpretation of his vision. That does not necessarily make his interpretation true. I think his interpretation was influenced by his fears - his fears what striving for the Iron Throne would do to him.

And why should it matter that Viserys was dead for a long time? Visions don't expire. We have seen visions that seem to center around the present day in the books. We have seen visions that have not yet come true but may do so in the future. Why should Stannis not see visions of the past? Bran does.

[MtnLion]

Being given a waterboard treatment with molten gold doesn't seem to quite evoke the fiery crown image. On the other hand, Stannis' own crown is designed as being fiery, to represent his ties to the red god. I would go with Stannis is seeing his own fate with his own fiery crown. ;)

[StannisandDaeny]

He is too practical to kill everyone in King's Landing. :P

Why, eradicating that rat's nest sounds like a very practical thing to do for me.

[Babeldygob]

No, one second I say he is a guy who does what he has to do to survive, but when it comes to joining the Others that would be off the table because, IMHO, Stannis is too practical and utilitarian to succumb to the notion of becoming a Night's King - he is not a person ruled by his passions, and the original Night's King became Night's King because of his passion towards a woman... Add to that he's sense of humour and righteousness, I simply don't see him succumbing to whatever feeling needed to strike a deal with the Others... On the other hand, people criticise Stannis for killing Renly - what about Renly and his young host ornamented with flowers... Renly would have fought with Stannis and his forces, which would inevitably have brought death or mutilation to many people, on both sides...

You make a very good point about Stannis and the passion thing. However, the Night's King tale is an old one and a very vague tale. We don't know much details. For example this Ice Woman. We have no idea what she is, is she made of ice or is it a description of her personality? We cannot know and those are two very different things. It could very well be that this Ice Woman was the driving force behind the Night's King, much like how Melisandre is considered Stannis' true queen. Whatever this passion the Night's King felt for this Ice Woman is, it be could love as well as hate or it could just be what outsiders thought his motivations were. We cannot know (yet).

The thing is that I think Stannis will be put into a very tight corner at some point. He won't be able to escape, he won't be able to fight and he will do something. I think Stannis would much faster do some dark deal than bend the knee to a usurper.

With what we know we can assume Aegon is well on his way to King's Landing. He has taken Storm's End. This is not a little thing. Storm's End was held by Stannis his garrison(another blow for Stannis) and a token force of Mace Tyrell was continuing to besiege it. Aegon might have lifted the siege and pretended to be a friend of Stannis. However I very much doubt that whoever was holding Storm's End would fall for that. He might'vestormed the castle however unlikely it sounds or he might have done something else. In any case, he had to take care of the Tyrell army. I don't think he just made friends with the commander, because we don't know who commands that force. He must've given battle. We now have three contenders for the Iron Throne in the South. Euron Greyjoy, Tommen Baratheon and Aegon Targaryen. What will happen?

The people of Westeros don't know Euron. The Redwyne fleet is busy with the Ironmen and its main fleet is in Slaver's Bay. I don't see how Euron could handle Aegon at this point, maybe later in the game but now? I think he has his hands full with the Tyrell lands in Westeros. Kevan Lannister has just been found dead and he looks very much murdered. As Varys said this will create a lot of turmoil in King's Landing and will make the Throne look weaker. As we know there are still a lot of loyal dragonmen in Westeros, Darry wasn't the only one. The Westerlands is ruled by green boys and the next Lord of Castamere might well be able to seize his chance. Aegon has the Golden Company and has momentum, first taking Griffin's Roost and then Storm's End. Doran Martell must see that his chance has come, even if he is doubtful if Aegon is genuine. What will Littlefinger do? If Arianne doesn't marry Aegon, he might well wed Sansa to Aegon, giving Aegon even more support. Will Sansa accept? Maybe not at first, but Aegon is the prince she's dreamed of, we all love the boy. If Sansa weds Aegon and Dorne supports Aegon, the Tyrell host has no chance. Some treasons here and there and the battle is all but fought. We know Randyll Tarly doesn't like Mace Tyrell for his weakness. It might very well be that he too will flock to Aegon's banner. If Aegon marches on King's Landing, Randyll Tarly might pull a Tywin Lannister and betray his king, they do seem very alike.

What most people seem to forget is that even if Stannis wins the whole North to his banner, if Sansa weds Aegon, will the North fight this? I doubt it, they might even attack Stannis for Sansa. I know Wyman Manderly would definitely consider it. Especially now that Winter has come.

The future seems very bleak for Stannis and at some point we will see him break, there's too much foreshadowing on this part to just let Stannis be the King and be done with it, nor do I see him bending the knee and be done with it. Stannis will not sit the Iron Throne. He's my favorite character but his chances seem so very slim.

[Ciazio]

I can definitely see your theory as true and in neat contrast with the Heresy thread (I loved it too).

But.

If the Heresy will become true I'll be a sad panda because we have really few hints about it in the books. Moreover, I see this arc fitting perfectly to Stannis' personality and story.

I really can't see were Stannis fits in an "Heretic future", so I'm buying your theory :bowdown:

[Babeldygob]

I'm now reading AFFC again and I just read the chapter where Aemon dies on the ship. In one of his last conversations he is talking to Sam about Azor Ahai/PtwP and he says:

"Stannis ... Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it ... their father's mother ... she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope ... perhaps I wanted to ... we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that ... light without heat ... an empty glamor ... the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Daenerys is our hope."

[Jolene Brown]

I see Stannis's story culminating in him committing some truly horrific act in a desperate attempt to get the Throne when he sees that all is lost. There have been so many hints that he is willing to burn a child alive that I feel like that's where his story is heading... he would have done it with Edric Storm, I think, if Davos hadn't gotten rid of him. Either that, or he will burn himself... his story will end in fire.

[King Doug]

I'm now reading AFFC again and I just read the chapter where Aemon dies on the ship. In one of his last conversations he is talking to Sam about Azor Ahai/PtwP and he says:

I read that quote differently. I think it just means that if you follow someone who claiming to be someone he is not, he will lead you further away from your goal

[The Sword In The Dark]

I have 2 problems with this theory 1. Unless something big happens to Stannis I don't see him siding with the Others visa versa

2. I know most people will disagree with me but i dint think Daenerys is as important as we are lead to believe.

Then again anything can happen in the Game of Thrones

[thunder_chicken]

I read that quote differently. I think it just means that if you follow someone who claiming to be someone he is not, he will lead you further away from your goal

I have suspicions that recent events were causing Aemon to be less of an unbiases scholar and more of a Targaryan. Just a hunch, given his talks to Jon- maybe he was regretting his earlier decisions to forgo his family loyalty.

Edit- I find it kind of funny how everyone is saying how Stannis has changed. I actually think he's the most constant character out there. The world is changing around him, and he has this strong stubbornness/cluelessness that since he is "right", everything will work out for him. Even in the tWoW Theon chapter, I don't know whether to take his statements about being prepared for an attack as confidence in his plan or blind faith that he's got to win.

[WintersKing]

The problem I have with this and most of the prophecies is that they rely on a tired trope. Is the Song of Ice and Fire really just a re-living of a bunch of other important events in the history of Westeros? If we add it all up we will have the Night's King come again, Azor Ahai come again, Bran the Builder come again, the Last Hero come again...

So where is the original story in that? It would be a pretty cheap story if at the end of ASOIF all it added up to was George re-telling these famous tales with a new cast of characters. And if all these things come around again then it diminishes their importance in the first place and therefore degrades the depth of the world and history that GRRM has created.

Maybe I'm deluded or misguided in wanting ASOIF to be an original tale with new characters who will take their own place in the history of that world rather than just the second Bran the Builder or whatever.

This. I thought I saw somewhere that Martin spoke of King Arthur and how everyone thought he would come again and save everyone. I hope that's all these prophesies are. I wouldn't be upset if one came true, but every last one would be redundant. And as you said unoriginal to the story.