R+L=J v.25

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I'm yet to be fully convinced that Targaryens in general have a connection with dragons. Dany does, but she is atypical because she is their magical mother (and unless we get a control group of a non-Targaryen using the same method and failing to hatch dragon eggs we don't know that being a Targaryen was a necessary part of that ritual). We have some information that the Valyrians used spells and horns to control dragons, rather than a magical born to them, and the idea that the dragons like people with a drop of 'dragon blood' in them (like Ben Plumm) hasn't really got any solid weight behind it as yet. The only magical ability that I am fairly certain runs in the Targaryen line is prophetic dreaming. Egg's brother Daeron had them and I think it has been hinted at in a few others too. Daeron called them dragon dreams but that is because his dreams all featured members of his family (as Targaryens symbollically represented as dragons) and they didn't really have an dragons-the-animals magic to them.

This is fair, but I still believe differently. Dragons have been attached to the Valyrians for centuries, and the one person whom caused their re-emergence was a Valyrian/Targ. I can't help but feel that there's some significance there. I do not believe that the Targs are the only ones able to control dragons, but I do believe that they are 'special'.

ETA: Either way, Jon (Targ/Stark) would still have magic on both sides, unlike Bran (Stark/Tully), and more powerful than Bloodraven (Targ/Blackwood).

[Alia of the knife]

@Alia of the knife I don't think GRRM would confuse the timelines in a backstory of such an importance; this is something that would not change and could easily be kept track of even in paper form. I didn't know the timeline myself until I found it here, but there is quite simple means to remember it: Jaime. He was fifteen at Harrenhall, and seventeen at the time of the Sack of KL. Any child conceived at Harrenhall would be to old to be Jon, or even Edric. Next information comes from GRRM himself, that Jon was born at around the time of the Sack. The rebellion is said to have lasted for about a year, so Jon was conceived well after it started. Aegon is about a year oldso he was born shortly before the rebellion - it has been speculated that Rhaegar turned to Lyanna after he learned that Elia wouldn't be able to bear any more children. I think the Ned Dayne-Arya conversation is there to remind the readers of the "commonborn Wylla".

As I said, the timeline is not my forte,' so I'm glad other people attempt it.

And, I'm being lighthearted about a future Arya/Ned pairing.

But, I remembered the theory that Edric could be Neds son, making him Aryas half brother, and thought, "another tragedy."

But, this story is only important to us who have gravitated to it, so we're biased.

This is a story that could be wrapped up at the end of the book in one chapter.

My Husband is not into this story at all and could care less, because he is into the mystery of CoTF, the "Others," and Bloodraven.

When I bring up Rhaegar and Lyanna, he rolls his eyes, so that's why I'm here.

And what does it say in the WIKI, "Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna Stark some time after Harrenhal for reasons unknown."

That really is kind of ambiguous.

I mean, in all honesty, why wouldn't Martin have a definitive timeline of events instead of these snippets he throws out there during interviews unless he wanted to have "wiggle" room for literary license?

Look at the HBO series, which we can assume has Martins blessing.

If so, Jaimie himself must have only a limited redemption arc, and then goes back to pyscho land like his sister if that "Silence of the Lambs," jail break scene where he killed his cousin to escape is anything to go by. :shocked:

[Dragonfish]

And what does it say in the WIKI, "Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna Stark some time after Harrenhal for reasons unknown." That really is kind of ambiguous. I mean, in all honesty, why wouldn't Martin have a definitive timeline of events instead of these snippets he throws out there during interviews unless he wanted to have "wiggle" room for literary license?

Well, in the case of the SSM* where he says Harrenhal was a year or two before the start of the rebellion, his vagueness was a result of not having his notes on hand to give a perfectly accurate response.

*Technically the question in the SSM actually asks about the year of the false spring, which is the year in which Harrenhal took place.

Look at the HBO series, which we can assume has Martins blessing.

I think it is a mistake to assume this. Martin does have some input in the show, but David and Dan can ignore (and have ignored) his suggestions. We should not assume that whatever occurs in the show has Martin's "blessing."

[Ygrain]

I highly highly doubt that Aerys raped Lyanna to produce Jon, if he raped anyone it seems more likely that it was Joanna to birth Tyrion.. but thats off-topic. I think we can all agree that R+L did make A baby -- it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to say that Aegon could be a pretender actually being "Jon" who's pretending to be the first son when he isnt. Correct me if I'm wrong but we dont know for sure how GRRM genetics work.

It seems that in things like hair colour, it follows the basic Mendelian recessive/dominant, homozygous/heterozygous patterns (though in RL this is more complicated). So, if Aegon is silver-haired, he must have inherited the gene from both parents (for a recessive trait to become manifest, the person must be homozygous and there must be at least one silver-haired person in both bloodlines), and since we know that Starks never married with Targaryens (thanks above in the thread :-) ), he can't be of Stark ancestry, the gene is not there.

The most likely explanation IS however that R+L=J -- whether or not that suggests that Jon is aPtwP is another matter. (someone from v24 brought up an interesting idea that he could've been promised in the sense that Ned promised Lyanna to keep it a secret).. Either way I highly doubt Jon would be able to warg the dragon since he barely wargs into Ghost, though it wouldn't be too far of a stretch since we dont necessarily know how he will be saved and what consequences that could have for him. (kissed by fire from Mel could make it easier to warg, or a number of other possibilities) Warging a dragon might not even be the coolest thing necessarily since being able to ride the dragon would accomplish the same thing. And no I dont think Bran will be dragon warging since I'd like to believe only Targs can control/ride dragons! (hoping Moqorro is just tricking Victarian and he'll be expendible once he helps win the battle of meereen) idk if R+L=J and tPtwP go hand in hand cause I think they atleast partially do (R+L couldve happened solely because "there must be a third" and Elia was unable to birth more children) however I really really wish that we dont end up in a situation where A+J=T(yrion) and he ends up being AA.

He is not aware of his ability, and is untrained - Bran also had to learn, first after Jojen and Meera urged him to warg Summer, then with Bloodraven. Sixskins thinks that the gift in Jon is strong, and in Jon's final chapters in ADWD, we learn that his connection with Ghost is growing stronger, there are moment when he is unable to distinguish between his own perception and Ghost's.

C'mon folks.............. Lyanna was not kidnapped. That is Roberts take (he was a drunk and a womanizer. Lyanna wanted no part of him) Jon could conceivably be up to 3 months old at the time of the confrontation at the Tower of Joy. Please people, I know everyone likes to assume that Lyanna died of birthing complications or shortly thereafter but there is just not enough evidence to support that. Case in point: When Ned remembers the battle right before swords met he distinctly hears Lyanna call out "Lord Stark". Awfully formal and forceful for someone in the throws of pregnancy. Jon is it folks but the story of how is the draw

Puerperal fever could occur up to a fortnight after the delivery and last for a couple more days. If Lyanna didn't die of this, I really have no idea what the combination of "bed of blood" and fever might mean.

Well, I have to say that the story of Jon has a lot of similarities with another of my favorite works, "Dune," hence my avatar, so I would not be surprised if Jon was the "Kwisatz Haderach" of this story. :)

Connecting two bloodlines, special abilities, an awesome father (I was SO pissed when Leto died!), who had a red-haired wife (in a broad sense), a wildling girlfriend who dies... How come I haven't seen this before!

[Alia of the knife]

It seems that in things like hair colour, it follows the basic Mendelian recessive/dominant, homozygous/heterozygous patterns (though in RL this is more complicated). So, if Aegon is silver-haired, he must have inherited the gene from both parents (for a recessive trait to become manifest, the person must be homozygous and there must be at least one silver-haired person in both bloodlines), and since we know that Starks never married with Targaryens (thanks above in the thread :-) ), he can't be of Stark ancestry, the gene is not there. He is not aware of his ability, and is untrained - Bran also had to learn, first after Jojen and Meera urged him to warg Summer, then with Bloodraven. Sixskins thinks that the gift in Jon is strong, and in Jon's final chapters in ADWD, we learn that his connection with Ghost is growing stronger, there are moment when he is unable to distinguish between his own perception and Ghost's. Puerperal fever could occur up to a fortnight after the delivery and last for a couple more days. If Lyanna didn't die of this, I really have no idea what the combination of "bed of blood" and fever might mean. Connecting two bloodlines, special abilities, an awesome father (I was SO pissed when Leto died!), who had a red-haired wife (in a broad sense), a wildling girlfriend who dies... How come I haven't seen this before!

You just needed me, your "Dune" buddy, to remind you of it. :D

[Alia of the knife]

Well, in the case of the SSM* where he says Harrenhal was a year or two before the start of the rebellion, his vagueness was a result of not having his notes on hand to give a perfectly accurate response. *Technically the question in the SSM actually asks about the year of the false spring, which is the year in which Harrenhal took place. I think it is a mistake to assume this. Martin does have some input in the show, but David and Dan can ignore (and have ignored) his suggestions. We should not assume that whatever occurs in the show has Martin's "blessing."

Fair enough.

As I said, the timelines are not something I try to fathom, because I don't have the patience.

And, I hope your right about the issue of Martins blessing, because last weeks episode with Jaimie was really Hannibal Lector-ish, and way outside what really happened, (i.e Tyrion sending men in to attempt to get Jaimie), and Jaimies cousin dying much later- and not at his hands.

[Teal'c]

Well, I have to say that the story of Jon has a lot of similarities with another of my favorite works, "Dune," hence my avatar, so I would not be surprised if Jon was the "Kwisatz Haderach" of this story. :)

...Puerperal fever could occur up to a fortnight after the delivery and last for a couple more days. If Lyanna didn't die of this, I really have no idea what the combination of "bed of blood" and fever might mean.

Overwhelming infection can lead to DIC (disseminated intravascular coagulation), which leads to uncontrolled bleeding. Alternately, heavy post partum bleeding or hemorrhage with pueperal fever also = fever + blood. Also note the fire and blood conceit here again, metaphorically. A dragon born in fire (fever) and blood. - Teal'c.

Connecting two bloodlines, special abilities, an awesome father (I was SO pissed when Leto died!), who had a red-haired wife (in a broad sense), a wildling girlfriend who dies... How come I haven't seen this before!

You just needed me, your "Dune" buddy, to remind you of it. :D

Jon Snow and Paul Atreides will necessarily have many commonalities because both fit the classic epic hero archetype. The Kwisatz Haderach analogy and Fremen/Wildlings associations are more specific references to Herbert's tale.

Sign me up for the Dune Buddies Club please!

[Alia of the knife]

Jon Snow and Paul Atreides will necessarily have many commonalities because both fit the classic epic hero archetype. The Kwisatz Haderach analogy and Fremen/Wildlings associations are more specific references to Herbert's tale.

Sign me up for the Dune Buddies Club please!

Will do, and your free T-shirt is on the way. :D

I think thats why I've been drawn to this story, and "Dune" had layers of intrigue, and diverse, intricately developed characters as well.

Sadly, no one has been able to pull off a good movie.

The similarities of Paul and Jon:

- Became the tool to destroy corruption, and bring peace.

- But, also became the thing he destroyed- a Tyrant. (Could be argued if Jon does sit on the Iron Throne, he may have to become a "benign" tyrant to bring back order)

- Then, later destroyed it again even at the cost of destroying his family to end that corruption. (I suppose here that could be a Rhaegar/Jon hybrid).

Favorite line:

Chani to Paul: "You may have eternity, but I have only now."

I could actually see Lyanna saying something like that to Rhaegar about his prophesies.

[chrisdaw]

It almost certainly has been brought up somewhere, but just in case it hasn't there's this quote from Craster about Jon.

"A bastard, is it? Craster looked Jon up and down. "Man wants to bed a woman, seems like he ought to take her to wife. That's what I do."

The possible implication that this is a nod towards a much theorised R+L wedding.

[Bimmerella]

I just can't ignore the hints in GOT about Tyrion's having some Targish traits, and then how he seemed to have a connection or even strange understanding of Jon Snow. It seems to me that Tyrion was discovering and revealing to Jon how strangely enough they had many similarities both at Winterfell and then again at the Wall, and seems to me that is going to be significant otherwise, why bother with this interaction or even the hints of Tyrion's having some Targ traits such as mentioning his hair having silver streaks. I think this lends strongly to BOTH theories that yes R=L + J and A+J=T. Past that who knows??? I DO feel like Jon will be the one who brings defeat to the Others and the protector of all of the the kingdoms when this is over. Once he finds out who he really is, I think he will find what his destiny is.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I just can't ignore the hints in GOT about Tyrion's having some Targish traits, and then how he seemed to have a connection or even strange understanding of Jon Snow. It seems to me that Tyrion was discovering and revealing to Jon how strangely enough they had many similarities both at Winterfell and then again at the Wall, and seems to me that is going to be significant otherwise, why bother with this interaction or even the hints of Tyrion's having some Targ traits such as mentioning his hair having silver streaks. I think this lends strongly to BOTH theories that yes R=L + J and A+J=T. Past that who knows??? I DO feel like Jon will be the one who brings defeat to the Others and the protector of all of the the kingdoms when this is over. Once he finds out who he really is, I think he will find what his destiny is.

I do not think Tyrion is a Targaryen. I think they found common ground because they were both family outcasts. I don't think it had anything to do with parentage.

[Bimmerella]

I do not think Tyrion is a Targaryen. I think they found common ground because they were both family outcasts. I don't think it had anything to do with parentage.

I completely agree with you that this could be the case. I'm just bothered by the little hints that have been dropped. They seem a little too inconspicuously dropped to be insignificant, and wondered why the author would even bother with including it. I'm just trying to pluck out anything I might have overlooked that would point to the confirmation that R+L=J and what would tie in nicely to that, seeing as we are probably going to have to wait 5 years before we get to do anything other than fantasize about what is going to happen.......

[Oldcrow]

They say Tyrion is a Chimera because he has two different colored eyes. Tyrion seems to be the third head of the dragon. GRRM says that the third head of the dragon might not be a Targ. This is consistant with a Chimera because one fetus consumes the other one in the womb. GRRM does not know if the Targ consumed the Lannister or vice-versa.But, really it does not matter. He is a combo Targ/Lannister, the third head of the Dragon and he does share lineage with Jon is this way.

[Tree Warg]

That isn't actually Lyanna saying that. That's the voice of Vayon Poole, which is bleeding into the dream as Ned comes out of it.

Your wrong. Read the passage again in your book. The author CLEARLY states that Lyanna says it first

[Tree Warg]

Puerperal fever could occur up to a fortnight after the delivery and last for a couple more days. If Lyanna didn't die of this, I really have no idea what the combination of "bed of blood" and fever might mean.

A dagger or sword can give you a gored stomach, bloody bed and Tears of Lys or a crannog dart can give you fever. Just too many unknowns to say that we have "cracked" Martin's riddle.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

Your wrong. Read the passage again in your book. The author CLEARLY states that Lyanna says it first

Read right above that part. It says Lyanna was screaming "Eddard" and then Ned hears someone say "Lord Eddard" and I believe he mistakes that person to be Lyanna talking when actually it was Vayon Poole trying to wake him up because Vayon Poole says "Lord Eddard" again. It wouldn't make sense for Lyanna to be screaming "Eddard" one second and then calmy calling Ned "Lord Eddard" the next second.

[7V3N]

As I said, the timeline is not my forte,' so I'm glad other people attempt it. And, I'm being lighthearted about a future Arya/Ned pairing. But, I remembered the theory that Edric could be Neds son, making him Aryas half brother, and thought, "another tragedy." But, this story is only important to us who have gravitated to it, so we're biased. This is a story that could be wrapped up at the end of the book in one chapter. My Husband is not into this story at all and could care less, because he is into the mystery of CoTF, the "Others," and Bloodraven. When I bring up Rhaegar and Lyanna, he rolls his eyes, so that's why I'm here. And what does it say in the WIKI, "Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna Stark some time after Harrenhal for reasons unknown." That really is kind of ambiguous. I mean, in all honesty, why wouldn't Martin have a definitive timeline of events instead of these snippets he throws out there during interviews unless he wanted to have "wiggle" room for literary license? Look at the HBO series, which we can assume has Martins blessing. If so, Jaimie himself must have only a limited redemption arc, and then goes back to pyscho land like his sister if that "Silence of the Lambs," jail break scene where he killed his cousin to escape is anything to go by. :shocked:

Timeline: The ambiguity may be so GRRM's hidden bits aren't as easily proven. If we had Jon's birth date, we could easily point out that that would have been while Lyanna was at the ToJ, and Ned was too busy or at some place that would make it less plausible for Jon to be his son.

Jaime Redemption: I think the opposite. I think this is to make his change even greater. They are making him much more evil than the books, rather than just an arrogant, uncalculating jackass. The "good" Jaime will probably be much of a better person than in the books (probably won't fuck Cersei in the sept as soon as he gets back).

[Dragonfish]

Your wrong. Read the passage again in your book. The author CLEARLY states that Lyanna says it first

I know the narrator says it's Lyanna saying it, but what I'm saying is that it is actually the voice of Vayon Poole, which Ned mistakes as Lyanna's voice. Read the passage again, and this will become clear.

[Oldcrow]

It would seem that Rhaegar is in fact Apollo. Aerys is pronounced Ares as in the Greek God Ares by the reader of the books on tape. Who was the wife of Ares? This could mean the entire Targ line to represents Greco/Roman mythology. The Targs seem to worship fire which was an important aspect of Greco/Roman mythology. Ergo Rhaegar may be Jon's father, but I found this post on line:

the heroes won’t do any good | asoiaf as a bastardized myth

∟ lyanna stark; oh his father did damn me, but the child is my son

There was born a wolf girl, with skin as fair as flakes of snow and hair as dark as winter night, who was Diana’s favorite, and a master of the hunt. And she came to be beloved by Apollo, who watched her from the heavens and pictured her splayed out as stars checkering his sky. But he did nothing, as Diana forbid him to touch her winter child.

But one day, as Apollo gazed down, he found the wolf girl twined with the dragon prince, in mind and body, in heart and soul, and jealousy like a burning flame lit within his chest. Apollo said nothing, though Diana would have smote the dragon prince to ash had she known, and instead made the journey down to earth, where, disguised as the prince, he took the wolf girl for his own.

And as she grew pregnant, and her stomach swelled and her cheeks flushed at the prospect of motherhood, war took the earth, as Diana in her endless rage stirred up armies against the dragon prince. And though the wolf girl died, she gave birth to a son— Apollo’s son —and begged her brother to take and raise him as his own, that Diana’s agents would never end his life.

And Apollo, in return, pinned her body up as starlight in the heavens far above.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Jon Snow and Paul Atreides will necessarily have many commonalities because both fit the classic epic hero archetype. The Kwisatz Haderach analogy and Fremen/Wildlings associations are more specific references to Herbert's tale. Sign me up for the Dune Buddies Club please!

Add me to the Dune Buddies Club as well (though I'm trying to forget some of the later add ons his son has done to the series). Totally saw the similarities between Ned and Leto sadly as soon as Ned's head came off. Its hard not to between the intricate politics along with the something extra (in this case magic/warging in Dune whatever you want to classify Paul's powers as) Which is also why I started to feel for Robb cause in the parallel I never saw him as Paul so a clock started winding down in my head. Really looking forward to Jon's Kwisatz Haderach moment...hoping it will start in his coma/second life cause that boy needs to start connecting with his powers.

And along those lines I have to say I'm with those that think he's damn strong. I know Jon hasn't had any practice and has gone longer than Bran has without making the conscious connection to his wolf but I see the fact that his power is basically leaking out of him (those scenes where he isn't sure whose senses he's using) as his power forcing its way out. I think once he does connect, with a bit of practice, warging a dragon isn't totally out of the question.