Patchface Prophesies

[Bear Island Bruiser]

I've always considered seeing his mouth covered in blood because he speaks about and predicts killing and death. So blood is figuratively on his mouth.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Bran is good at warging half wits. The line in Mel's chapter when she saw him with his mouth covered in blood, it made me think Bran would use him as a catspaw.

Whoa, that's kind of a cool prediction. I mean I've heard a lot of crazy ideas for patchface (even including Jon going into his body on his death LOL) but that one is actually half way reasonable. Good stuff. :cheers:

[Starks Among Us]

Not really. I think swimming wights would make sense cause if the dead things are underneath the water walking. Then how did the ship's crew going to hardhome see them? They can't see to the bottom of the sea through all that water. Swimming wights they could definitely see though from the ship. I don't care either way. George will make the water wights/creatures fit the story perfectly no matter how he chooses to protray it. But to each their own. We won't know for a couple years yet. But imagine wight krackens attacking ships (:

what if the dead things in the water are like the dead things in the bogs of lord of the rings, or in the cave when harry potter goes to get the horcrux, or like in pirates of the carribean at worlds end (the souls that werent ferried over by davie jones) or like in disney's hercules when he dives in to save meg from hades......all those "things in the water" were deadly to those unaware of what they could do...

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

He gets his power from the Drowned God same as Euron.

[Arya_Ghostface]

I mostly agree with this:

I was thinking, though, are we putting far too much stock in this guys prophecies (which are strangely correct anyway)? I think he serves a great purpose, but more so as a literary device than anything else. To me, Patchface is just Martin's way of saying "look here, we have all these devoted religious nuts predicting various things, taking their arts very seriously, but this random fool is just as good at the predicting" - IE Prophecy = a fool's work, not something you'd hitch your wagon to.

But with the difference that I think Patchface died and got resurrected and lives on borrowed time, or is dead still, or something sinister like that.

I like the dynamic at the Wall right now though: Mel is wary of Patchface, Val is wary of Shireen, both could be potentially right, and there's no Jon to maintain a balance, and even if he survives he wiould probably be incapacitate dlong enough so as not to be able to prevent some atrocity commited against one or the other.

Anyone else get the idea that Patchface is not growing old?

[Hurm]

This is Patchface. Shireen is important, but why is he?

[Aerys_The_Mad_King]

Man the more I read about this guy, the creepier he gets!

Under the sea for me has multiple meanings both regarding the future and death.

As for the prophecies:

Under the sea, the old fish eat the young fish, . .

The old tully will kill the young one (Zombie-Cat killing Edmure's child and/or Brynden killing Zombie-Cat and taking over the brotherhood)

“Under the sea the mermen feast on starfish soup, and all the serving men are crabs"

Frey pies

“Away, away,” the fool sang. “Come with me beneath the sea, away, away, away.” He took the little princess by one hand and drew her from the room, skipping.

He either wants to kill/save the girl.

Patchface jumped up. “I will lead it!” His bells rang merrily. “We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.”

We will all be dead and rise again. Or an imminent attack by the Others. He is already dead and risen (thus "I will lead it!")

“Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black,” Patchface sang somewhere. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”

Definetly the blackwaters.

IMO he definetly has something to do with the WW, in the end he is, or has been, dead. Also is someway linked to BloodRaven and the CotF.

Controversial guy, may have an important role on either side.

Shireen is important, but why is he?

1 Greyscale

2 Stannis heir

3 Prophecies/Magic/etc... related? I dunno.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

This is Patchface. Shireen is important, but why is he?

Are you asking why is Patchface important? Well we don't necessarilly know that he is, but we are speculating on his significance based on his ability to foretell future events, and Mel's strange vision involving him (skulls and lips w/ blood)...

Also his origin story is pretty odd (only survivor on Lord Steffon Baratheon's ship wreck).

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Are you asking why is Patchface important? Well we don't necessarilly know that he is, but we are speculating on his significance based on his ability to foretell future events, and Mel's strange vision involving him (skulls and lips w/ blood)...

Also his origin story is pretty odd (only survivor on Lord Steffon Baratheon's ship wreck).

In terms of his origin you can't even be sure that's where he's come from. He washes up days after the shipwreck and whilst all the others are dead he's alive. Now he could have come from another ship and it's just a coincidence of when he washes up.

Equally it's presumed he's the boy Steffon talks about in his letter because he has motley tattooed on his face. However we know that his personality is completely different to that described. If you think about the Volantis slave tattoos some of them have fairly sensible meanings (flies = dung collector) but others could easily be misinterpreted Tears for pleasure slaves for example doesn't necessarily follow, similarly if you didn't know about the meanings it might be a not unreasonable assumption that if you saw a slave with flames tattooed on their face it would mean they were a blacksmith.

In short does the checkered pattern (the only thing that links Patchface to being the boy Steffon describes) mean that he is a jester?

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

I can't imagine anything else that a tatooed "motley" might suggest. It's highly doubtful that there was any kind of "patchface swap" between the ship wreck and PF washing ashore.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

I can't imagine anything else that a tatooed "motley" might suggest. It's highly doubtful that there was any kind of "patchface swap" between the ship wreck and PF washing ashore.

Who knows what the 'motley' may suggest. My point is that the tiger stripes for soldiers, flames for priests, tears for pleasure slaves etc. all only make sense once you've placed them into a context that's given in the book. All could easily be misinterpreted by others and so the motley could have been done so as well.

Patchface may well have been on the same ship it doesn't mean he's the same person described in the letter. The people that found him didn't recognise him, saw the motley, knew they were expecting a jester and put 2+2 together from there. It could still well be the same guy but there are a few references in the book of how 'it wasn't the same boy' they pulled from the sea. Which would drop some hints

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

So you think that Steffon Baratheon had two individuals on his ship with their face tatooed in motley. One that was a clever jester who can juggle, tell riddles and jokes. And one who is an idiot that he didn't bother to include in the letter?

Or are you suggesting that Steffon didn't understand what the motley on his face was for when he PURCHASED him?

[Bear Island Bruiser]

Point was he never mentions the motley tattooed on his face during his letter. Hence the boy he describes MAY not be Patchface. It's entirely an assumption the people that found him put together.

[King's Ruin]

So you think that Steffon Baratheon had two individuals on his ship with their face tatooed in motley. One that was a clever jester who can juggle, tell riddles and jokes. And one who is an idiot that he didn't bother to include in the letter?

Or are you suggesting that Steffon didn't understand what the motley on his face was for when he PURCHASED him?

Point was he never mentions the motley tattooed on his face during his letter. Hence the boy he describes MAY not be Patchface. It's entirely an assumption the people that found him put together.

Ser Endrew Tarth was making me laugh until I read Bear Island Bruiser's last point, then I realised he is technically right. However, I still tend to side with the boy who washed up being the same boy - at least, PHYSICALLY that is - as there is something very intriguing about the way in which he suffered brain damage drowning and that has given him some kind of gift of prophecy. Why waste that excellently mysterious piece of storytelling? I guess it has already been enjoyed and could be disposed of but like Tywin not really being Tyrion's father, I find the notion actually subtracts from the dynamic rather than increasing it by sheer virtue of being another secret.

[Pelican]

Bear Island Bruiser: If you think about the Volantis slave tattoos some of them have fairly sensible meanings (flies = dung collector) but others could easily be misinterpreted Tears for pleasure slaves for example doesn't necessarily follow, similarly if you didn't know about the meanings it might be a not unreasonable assumption that if you saw a slave with flames tattooed on their face it would mean they were a blacksmith.

In short does the checkered pattern (the only thing that links Patchface to being the boy Steffon describes) mean that he is a jester?

This is such an interesting point. It does make you wonder why we get a few mentions of what the slave tattoos mean, but does it really say anywhere that motley in Volantis signifies a jester? [in real history, motley protected the court fool against retaliation for telling the truth.] The wiki says Clash says that a fool could be tattooed from head to neck, but the section is not that specific:

"It was the fashion of the Free City of Volantis to tattoo the faces of slaves and servants; from neck to scalp the boy's skin had been patterned in squares of red and green motley."

It's certainly insinuated but not stated outright. It would be helpful to see the Volantis Guide to Slave Tattoos just to be sure. [The markings I found cited were tears on the cheeks of pleasure slaves, flames/R'hllor priests, tiger stripes/city guards, and flies/dung collectors.]

Even if Patchface turns out to have been the clever boy, it might have been good to know that boy's family history. There are families with a talent for prophecy, after all.

The other character in literature to wear motley is the Harlequin, also a jester. Except sometimes when Harlequin is traced to Herla [Herlequin], a Woden figure who in some tellings visits the Underworld [under the sea?] and comes back to lead the Wild Hunt.

The Clash prologue brings up a few other points:

The white raven refers to Shireen as "Lady." Mormont's raven refers to Jon as "King." What does it mean when the white raven shrieks "Lord! Lord, lord, lord" after Patchface gives his 'shadows come to dance' song?

Shireen sadly also has a patched face, in black and grey. She has been plagued by nightmares all her life, including ones about dragons, and lives in a place repeatedly described in terms of smoke and salt. Her destiny may end up being very interesting, and maybe there's a reason she and her unusual fool are mirrored.

[And, just wondering: If a merwife wears nennymoans in her hair (a net of poison?), could Tyrion be one of the mermen at the starfish feast?]

[Bear Island Bruiser]

This is such an interesting point. It does make you wonder why we get a few mentions of what the slave tattoos mean, but does it really say anywhere that motley in Volantis signifies a jester? [in real history, motley protected the court fool against retaliation for telling the truth.] The wiki says Clash says that a fool could be tattooed from head to neck, but the section is not that specific:

It's certainly insinuated but not stated outright. It would be helpful to see the Volantis Guide to Slave Tattoos just to be sure. [The markings I found cited were tears on the cheeks of pleasure slaves, flames/R'hllor priests, tiger stripes/city guards, and flies/dung collectors.]

Even if Patchface turns out to have been the clever boy, it might have been good to know that boy's family history. There are families with a talent for prophecy, after all.

They were the only Volantis tattoo meanings I could find as well and barring the flies one none would make logical sense to me without the context they're put in. The motley tattoo would, to a Westerosi mind especially one expecting to see a jester, make sense but it's a Volantis custom and could mean something completely different.

I have to admit I remain open on the issue but there are lines in the book about it being a different boy dragged from the water for example that would provide a sly wink to it being someone else. Equally it could be the idea of rebirth similar to the Iron borns beliefs.

[Emilydayne]

There could be a million Targs out there in the world. Not all of them can be consequential.

"Aegon IV, known as Aegon the Unworthy, was the eleventh Targaryen to sit the Iron Throne and is considered as one of the worst Targaryen kings. He sired numerous bastards, legitimizing them on his deathbed, an act that started the Blackfyre Rebellion and almost ripped the Seven Kingdoms apart.It is said that Aerys II Targaryen could have lots of Bastards too (but he def didn't legitimize him. At this point a Targ could appear out of thin air and I wouldn't be surprised!

That being said. Patchface is way creepy!

[Starkbringer]

Well, I really like the PF type characters in the series. I enjoy trying to solve all the prophecies. Not saying I'm good at it I just like it.

Anyway, here goes (nothing?) If he was talking to Jon maybe he is saying I'll take you to the sea (after the stabbing) to drown you and revive you and the then the Manderly's warships are going to come and rescue both of us. Do the Manderly warships have Mermaids rams on them? He would know if the ships were in route because of his prophetic nature. I think this could explain "in and out of the sea" "seahorses" "Mermaids". Seashells could be horns?

[Lord Jakkor]

Patchface jumped up. “I will lead it!” His bells rang merrily. “We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.”

March into the sea and out again - March into battle and die, come out again as the undead (wights).

Under the waves - In death

We will ride seahorses - If under the waves/sea is being dead, then seahorses may mean dead horses. Patchface will be a White Walker (or wight) riding a dead horse?

Mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming - Mermaids could just be the Night's Watch. A mermaid is a person who lives in the sea. Perhaps Patchface considers man (and the Night's Watch) to be those who live amongst the dead (NW especially since they're the ones who fight them and are closest). The Night's Watch blows the horn (sea shells) three times to announce they're coming. He says "oh" three times. Another clue?

Altogether...

Patchface jumped up, "I will lead us into death and rebirth!" His bells rang merrily. We will march into battle and die, only to return as the undead. As the undead we will ride dead horses, and the Night's Watch will blow their horn three times to announce our coming, oh oh oh."

note: My apologies if this exact theory/interpretation has been posted already in this thread, I read the first few pages and then skipped to the last.

[Roi Woodt]

I like the idea, and would change it slightly:

Patchface jumped up and spoke with the drowned god's voice: "I will lead them into death and rebirth!" His bells rang merrily. They will march into battle and die, only to return as the undead. As the undead they will ride dead horses, and the Night's Watch will blow their horn three times to announce their coming, ha ha ha."

What is death may never die, but rises again harder and stronger.