Can the Ironborn Be Challenged At Sea?

[Ser Lepus]

I didn't say they had to pay their banners, only that it costs a lot of money to take on a war. Long term, too, when you pull men away from their work. Which you seem to agree with me on, so... yeah.

I think the cost of having the coastal regions devastated would be greater than the cost of keeping some knights and men-at-arms away from their lands. We aren't speaking of a general peasant levy here, only of calling those knights and warriors that were staying in their castles in the D&E novellas while the coast was being sacked.

[Michael Snow]

I think the cost of having the coastal regions devastated would be greater the cost of keeping some knights and men-at-arms away from their lands. We aren't speaking of a general peasant levy here, only of calling those knights and warriors that were staying in their castles in the D&E novellas while the coast was being sacked.

I agree, it'd be far more expensive ... if you yourself were personally effected by the raiding. I was talking about why other lords, in other regions with allegiances to other houses, wouldn't want to get involved. I agree that it seems strange that the Tyrells themselves wouldn't immediately call their banners and deal with the problem, of course. My mistake if I confused the issue.

[Winter's Breath]

I agree the iron fleet is the best fleet in westeros right now. It said they have close to 2000 ships, which is so many that everyone dissmissed that as a boast, and maybe a joke. Like if the Vale suddenly declaired it had a million soldiers ready to fight. A number that is so big that it is dismissed out of hand is a pretty big number. And the Redwyne fleet is probably twice as large as anything else in Westeros, and that is less than a fourth of the iron irons fleet's number, even with the iron fleet away.

But the free cities are a different story, and Im sure they will be brought into play shortly. Pentos probably has a big navy, volantis certainly does. It probably could muster 5000 ships if it collected all the trading vessels in its bay. Quath probably has a ridiculus number as well. Bravoss has the best supposedly, being able to produce a warship a day. I'm guessing they have over 1000 ships as good or better than the best in the iron fleet. If Stanis gains them, it won't even be a contest between him and the iron islands.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Else the Ironborn really shouldn't exist anymore. They must have SOMETHING going for them.

But that's part of the point: they DON'T, at least not anymore. They were a force in the past, when the rest of the Westeros wasn't united and didn't really know how to deal with them, but not anymore, due to a mix of economic (the other lands got even richer than they were in relation to the Ironborn due to the reduction in raiding and loss of external territores), military (the presence of a Royal fleet added another naval power to deal with, and Westeros just learned how to deal with them better) and populational (the other populations simply got even bigger, while the Ironborn didn't in part due to lack of land- it's one thing to fight the Reach when they could raise 30,000 men, another when they can raise 70,000). Balon is trying to back to a time that doesn't exist anymore- the Ironborn will never be as strong as they were in the past.

[jarl the climber]

But that's part of the point: they DON'T, at least not anymore. They were a force in the past, when the rest of the Westeros wasn't united and didn't really know how to deal with them, but not anymore, due to a mix of economic (the other lands got even richer than they were in relation to the Ironborn due to the reduction in raiding and loss of external territores), military (the presence of a Royal fleet added another naval power to deal with, and Westeros just learned how to deal with them better) and populational (the other populations simply got even bigger, while the Ironborn didn't in part due to lack of land- it's one thing to fight the Reach when they could raise 30,000 men, another when they can raise 70,000). Balon is trying to back to a time that doesn't exist anymore- the Ironborn will never be as strong as they were in the past.

Another thing to keep in mind is that many of the Ironborn lost their way once they got to the green lands. They never spread the Drowned God beyond the Iron Islands even though they held most of the western coast at different times.

[Ser Lepus]

I agree the iron fleet is the best fleet in westeros right now. It said they have close to 2000 ships, which is so many that everyone dissmissed that as a boast, and maybe a joke. Like if the Vale suddenly declaired it had a million soldiers ready to fight. A number that is so big that it is dismissed out of hand is a pretty big number. And the Redwyne fleet is probably twice as large as anything else in Westeros, and that is less than a fourth of the iron irons fleet's number, even with the iron fleet away.

It was said they have 1000 ships but Ran claims that was an exaggeration.

Anyway, only 100 of that fleet were war galleys, the rest being mostly longships, which make poor warships.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Another thing to keep in mind is that many of the Ironborn lost their way once they got to the green lands. They never spread the Drowned God beyond the Iron Islands even though they held most of the western coast at different times.

This is because it's a religion that says Ironborn are superior and special, and the others aren't really people.

[Ahmrogar]

Totally agreed. Ship for ship, they're supposed to be the best. But that wasn't the question or purpose of this topic. Can they be challenged at sea, not whether or not they're better sailers and naval warriors than any other single Westerosi region/culture/house. The answer to the OP is still yes, they can definitely be challenged at sea, and they will be.

Don't get me wrong, I am no fan of the Ironborn. I dislike them intensely.

But it adds to the spice of the Ice and Fire world if these guys are pretty much acknowledged as the fiercest sea raiders around.

I don't know what strategic errors Victarrion made when Stannis defeated him, or what the comparative naval sizes were (the Iron Fleet is 100 ships strong while the royal fleet is probably significantly larger).

The point is, I don't think that Victarrions 100 ships of the Iron Fleet can be defeated by any other navy numbering 100 ships. But if they are outnumbered 2 to 1, then it's a different story.

Else the Ironborn really shouldn't exist anymore. They must have SOMETHING going for them.

Actually. On a ship-to-ship basis the Ironborn seem to have consistently smaller and weaker warships, more along the lines of longships and coastal raiders than the big galleys we see Stannis and Joffrey deploy that can mount balista and catapults on board. Perhaps they are better ship-to-ship fighters, pound for pound. But at least partly that'd be the result of fearlessly wearing heavier armour.

I think Martin has said that the Iron Fleet's ships are larger and heavier than standard Ironborn fare, but he's also said that they're smaller than the galleys and whatnot that made up the Lannister Fleet.

This would make a lot of sense, because the Ironborn are feared as reavers and raiders, so the emphasis should be on speed, maneuvre and mobility. Imagine trying to chase down a couple of dozen longboats of raiders with a squad of war galleys?

Strictly speaking, the Ironborn shouldn't exist anymore. They've been defeated twice now in decisive conflicts, and it's only really Robert's foolish mercy that kept them around this time.

On a pound-for-pound basis they seem to be pretty solid fighters, though, even when on land. The lack of heavy horse is a weakness. But not a large one. Not now that it's getting into winter.

If we follow the basic idea that war galleys are bigger and stronger than longboats, and considering the Iron Fleet is half a sea away, that would mean that Manderly's fleet is looking pretty formidable.

On top of that, there's still the large and powerful Redwyne fleet.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

The Iron Islands are a bunch of rocks in the sea. If the Tyrells (for example) go on a serious shipbuilding programme, they will take a beating.

[jarl the climber]

This is because it's a religion that says Ironborn are superior and special, and the others aren't really people.

Actuallly the Ironborn make thrall and salt wives out of the captives they take but their children are free and considered Ironborn if they are drowned at birth. It seems like a lot of folks on the west coast would be descended from the Ironborn but they have left no long term cultural influence on them that we have seen.

[rmholt]

The ironborn used to be a real force to be reckoned with - they had the iron islands and the Riverlands = Black Harren was their last great king. Harrenhal isnt anywhere near the coast so they had significant inland power as well.

They are so diminished now that they fish and mine instead of stealing everything they need, which they find shameful. The Greyjoy Rebellion and current efforts are efforts to regain former glory and power.

Victarion seems to know what he is doing with the Iron Fleet but has it really been challenged significantly since Stannis whipped him?

[rmholt]

I agree the iron fleet is the best fleet in westeros right now. It said they have close to 2000 ships, which is so many that everyone dissmissed that as a boast, and maybe a joke. Like if the Vale suddenly declaired it had a million soldiers ready to fight. A number that is so big that it is dismissed out of hand is a pretty big number. And the Redwyne fleet is probably twice as large as anything else in Westeros, and that is less than a fourth of the iron irons fleet's number, even with the iron fleet away.

But the free cities are a different story, and Im sure they will be brought into play shortly. Pentos probably has a big navy, volantis certainly does. It probably could muster 5000 ships if it collected all the trading vessels in its bay. Quath probably has a ridiculus number as well. Bravoss has the best supposedly, being able to produce a warship a day. I'm guessing they have over 1000 ships as good or better than the best in the iron fleet. If Stanis gains them, it won't even be a contest between him and the iron islands.

:agree:

There is one mention of Lynesse (jorahs ex) when Oldtown is being threatened - hoping to get some ships from her sugar daddy. Stannis himself got by (now - cant recall about Greyjoy Rebellion) with Myrish sellsails and Sallador Saan's fleet.

[Ice Turtle]

Braavos. I would love to see Braavosi fleet in battle. Besides if they form alliance with the north they can get a lot of wood and ships out of it.

[The Hungry W0lf]

Stannis in a rowboat>the Iron fleet

It is known.

The Manderly have a fleet of warships sitting at White Harbour waiting for Davos to he Rickon back and declare for Stannis. Davos will lead that fleet with whatever sellsails or braavosi ships Ser Justin Massey brings back and who knows what that Bastard of Dirftmark is up to.

Manderly could sail straight up the black water as well the iron throne thinks he is loyal they even sent him his son back and with winter he would be expected to turn up as its the Norths primary trade port.

[rmholt]

Braavos. I would love to see Braavosi fleet in battle. Besides if they form alliance with the north they can get a lot of wood and ships out of it.

What would be Braavos' motivation?

[Ice Turtle]

What would be Braavos' motivation?

Siding with Stannis, or with the North for the new trade opportunities, or going against the only Westerosi king that practices slavery and is even aspiring to get dragons. Euron is true Braavosi nightmare.

[Batman]

Stannis will have a fleet, either from Auran Waters or Braavos (or both). And there is the Redwyne Fleet. They'll got their ass kicked.

If Wyman swears alliegance he gains 50 warships that are better than anything the Ironborn have, according to Martin. So there is that too

[rmholt]

Siding with Stannis, or with the North for the new trade opportunities, or going against the only Westerosi king that practices slavery and is even aspiring to get dragons. Euron is true Braavosi nightmare.

But why ally with anyone? They seem pretty self sufficient to me.

[Ice Turtle]

But why ally with anyone? They seem pretty self sufficient to me.

The are not, even now they have problem with fuel and winter like this might cause them real trouble.

[rmholt]

The are not, even now they have problem with fuel and winter like this might cause them real trouble.

I can see business deals but I cant see actual alliances. They buy wood NOW they can just buy more if they need to. And it seems like the sea currents keep the place pretty mild already.