IRON BANK Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 I was reading this thread just waiting for the standard E-Ro posts every Stannis achievement ever post, Well done.I agree some people are gonna be dissappointed when stannis goes bye - bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diremitar Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 1 Stannis- best without doubts. He won almost every battle he fought despite odds were usually against him.2 Ned Stark- He proved himself in RR and he teached two great commanders, robb and Jon, how to command3 Tyrion- Won impossible at Blackwater and also is able to motivate men despite he is poor warrior (and dwarf)4 Jon Snow- He hold the Wall with practically no men and advised Stannis to fight Ironborn and provided him 3000 men5 Euron- Sack of Lannisport and Shield Islands. And he reaved whole world6 Randyll Tarly- He has reputation althrought I despise him7 Robb Stark- Won every battle he fought. Almost defeated TywinHonored mentions Jaime, Robert and Blackfish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian of the Lhazareen Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 1 Stannis- best without doubts. He won almost every battle he fought despite odds were usually against him.2 Ned Stark- He proved himself in RR and he teached two great commanders, robb and Jon, how to command3 Tyrion- Won impossible at Blackwater and also is able to motivate men despite he is poor warrior (and dwarf)4 Jon Snow- He hold the Wall with practically no men and advised Stannis to fight Ironborn and provided him 3000 men5 Euron- Sack of Lannisport and Shield Islands. And he reaved whole world6 Randyll Tarly- He has reputation althrought I despise him7 Robb Stark- Won every battle he fought. Almost defeated TywinHonored mentions Jaime, Robert and BlackfishSorry what battle was stannis fighting against the odds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DurararaFTW Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 Sorry what battle was stannis fighting against the odds?He defeated the Wildlings when they outnumbered him 10 to 1, he held Storm's End against the Reach for a year when they outnumbered him like 100 to 1 or more (not even counting the fact that the Reach brought naval strength and Stannis didn't have any), After the siege was lifted he raised a fleet and besieged Dragonstone and took it. I'm not sure if he was outnumbered by the Iron Fleet when he trashed them though, but Victarion and hid brothers were definitely the more experienced admirals when he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diremitar Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 Sorry what battle was stannis fighting against the odds?At Wall? And probably he will win battle of ice. And he entered war of five kings with nothing and yet he is only king who survived that war. He didn't lose castle of Storm's End with few men and against all power of Reach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 He defeated the Wildlings when they outnumbered him 10 to 1, he held Storm's End against the Reach for a year when they outnumbered him like 100 to 1 or more (not even counting the fact that the Reach brought naval strength and Stannis didn't have any), After the siege was lifted he raised a fleet and besieged Dragonstone and took it. I'm not sure if he was outnumbered by the Iron Fleet when he trashed them though, but Victarion and hid brothers were definitely the more experienced admirals when he did.It is fair to assume that Stannis considerably outnumbered Victarion's Iron Fleet during the Greyjoy Rebellion considering he had Paxter Redwyne (and probably his fleet too) with him. The Ironborn were still more experienced though... which makes the achievement notable.For the wildlings, Stan had the advantage of surprise, horses, and better equipment. It wasn't exactly "against all odds" but was still impressive.As for the siege of Storm's End, it's not as much a victory as it is survival. It is extremely impressive though, and shows Stan's willpower and leadership. It does not reflect his ability/skill as a battle commander, but as a leader in general.I'm far from saying Stan is bad, he's really good, but he's not on the same caliber as his brother Robert and (urgh) Robb Stark were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor227 Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 I also agree that Tarly isn't overrated. Robert was known for being a pretty heavy-handed, direct, and powerful commander. He had incredible morale behind him, and put it to work from the front, usually pulling off acts like personally killing/capturing/defeating enemy commanders (Summerhall, Gulltown, Battle of the Bells and the Trident). Tarly has a similar reputation for direct action (leading the Reach's vanguard, personally killing Lord Cafferen at Ashford). Robert didn't just walk away from fights when confronted, he got up close and personal, and killed until things swung in his favor, and likewise Tarly is the man the Tyrells go to when they need a charge led.Ashford was the only known battle for Robert in the rebellion where he either didn't or wasn't capable of storming right up to the leader of the opposing force, and dropping the hammer. At Summerhall he did it three times, at Gulltown he personally killed Lord Grafton while leading the rebels in taking the walls. At the Battle of the Bells, he was wounded, alone, and recovering (unmentioned how that came about, though seems things went downhill for him after Ashford), and when the fight started he -still- managed to kill Myles Mooton and trigger the rebel surge that led to Connington's retreat after a great start on his part (killing Jon Arryn's heir and wounding Hoster Tully), and we all know the Trident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardian of the Lhazareen Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 He defeated the Wildlings when they outnumbered him 10 to 1, he held Storm's End against the Reach for a year when they outnumbered him like 100 to 1 or more (not even counting the fact that the Reach brought naval strength and Stannis didn't have any), After the siege was lifted he raised a fleet and besieged Dragonstone and took it. I'm not sure if he was outnumbered by the Iron Fleet when he trashed them though, but Victarion and hid brothers were definitely the more experienced admirals when he did.being outnumbered doesn't have to meen against the odds. the fact is he vastly out qualitied the wildlings and this is why he won with ease, there is no way they were going to hold rank against steal knights, at se he defeated starvation not mace, mace wasn't even trying to take SE as he was trying to play it safe. and it DS the war had ended and the garison there was on the verge of surendering dany and viserys so i doubt that was much of a strugle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 she went from having a few dozen people wandering starving in the desert to having a formidable army in what, a year or two? and won battles along the way. what more does she have to do?and we're not talking about morality or reputation in this discussion, it's pure military success.You're dragging this wildly off topic. You said she created her army from nothing, and I pointed out that she clearly didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DurararaFTW Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 being outnumbered doesn't have to meen against the odds. the fact is he vastly out qualitied the wildlings and this is why he won with ease, there is no way they were going to hold rank against steal knights, at se he defeated starvation not mace, mace wasn't even trying to take SE as he was trying to play it safe. and it DS the war had ended and the garison there was on the verge of surendering dany and viserys so i doubt that was much of a strugle...Can i get a quote on that Mace never tried to take Storm's End. Cause that's news to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 Wait I thought vic was the mastermind of lanisport but euron carried it out no?Other way around. Theon gives the lowdown on it in ACOK chapter 24. As he tells it, Vic and Euron both carried it out, but the plan was Eurons, as Vic is too much of an oaf to concoct such a scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PancakeMountainThatRides Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 What about Beric Dondarrion? He must've been doing something right since his group was raising hell for all the armies and never got caught. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch me a block Posted April 12, 2013 Author Share Posted April 12, 2013 I like your list, but im not so sure about this part lady m. Ned led the attack at the battle of the bells, and though it was won he almost lost until Robert led a counterattack. that's the only battle that we know of were ned was in command. I think he was good, just not above Stannis. ;)All we know is that Connington fought back fiercely and Robert's appearance had a big boost for morale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 1. Eddard2. Jon Snow (with experience will exceed even Eddard in the end)3. The Blackfish4. Randyl Tarly5. Tywin Lannister6. Stannis Baratheon/Roose Bolton etc.I probably forgot a few that should replace a few on that list.Robb in my view was a figurehead, with good instincts, but whose great victories were made possible by the Blackfish and Bloodraven's influence through Grey Wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch me a block Posted April 12, 2013 Author Share Posted April 12, 2013 It's a good list, but to me Tywin and Tarly need to be replaced by Euron Greyjoy and Tyrion.Euron was the man who devised the sacking of Lannisport during the Greyjoy rebellion, and his assault on the Shield Islands is little short of brilliant, accomplishing something noone has managed in 2000 years. This due is grudgingly given to him by Victarion, who has more reason to hate him than anyone.Tyrion does not have a long resume, but the one he has is stellar. He was in an almost unwinnable situation, and pulled off a stalling effort long enough for reinforcements to arrive through inventiveness and clever use of the meager forces he had at his disposal. This demonstrates his ability rather than the ability of his forces, as one could argue for some of the others on the list.Edit: And I fully agree with E-Ro on Stannis. His defeat of the Iron Fleet is expressly NOT simply having more ships at hand. His victory seems to have been primarily a tactical one, as he managed to trap Victarion and destroy the Iron Fleet. We have subsequent information on the prowess of the Iron Fleet when not trapped in this manner, and it seems to be extremely effective, see invasion of the Shield Islands.Stannis being able to best the Ironborn at naval tactics while at the same time being an accomplished tactical commander on land, at holding sieges and attacking both speaks volumes of his ability. Not to mention the assault on Blackwater where he uses a combined naval amphibian assault that is only defeated through the equally brilliant defense of Tyrion and the extremely timely arrival of enemy reinforcements, as well as the clever devices of the Tyrells.Euron can plan, but in both instances Victarion actually did the fighting/burning. When you put them together they can be devastating, but on their own they are both weak where the other is strong. Not well rounded enough for me.Tyrion had a great role, but like Jon, that was only one battle and one that would have been lost if not for intervention by others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 Bloodraven isn't in ASOIAF or Robert's Rebellion. Yes he is, just in tree form Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch me a block Posted April 12, 2013 Author Share Posted April 12, 2013 Pure military success isn't enough though. One can be an incredible commander and still loose if one is severely outnumbered for instance (see Stannis at Blackwater). A truly stellar commander is one able to pull off victory without obvious advantages such as in numbers or fighting capabilites of your forces, which is why I rate Tyrion as highly as I do.Daenerys not only has superior forces in pretty much any battle she enters, her soldiers are also of a superior quality. None of these things can be attributed to her ability as a commander. I would argue that her military success has less to do with her being the commander and more to do with her being able to recruit good soldiers (by whatever means).But Tyrion didn't pull off a victory, the reinforcements didDaenerys' infantry is of the best quality, but one must remember she doesn't have much of anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetch me a block Posted April 12, 2013 Author Share Posted April 12, 2013 My bad, I could have sworn that I had read about him in A Dance with Dragons or in the Tales of Dunk and Egg.He's in dunk and egg but I mean the 5 ASOIAF books/tv series Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 Jon saved Stannis's bacon in Dance. Stannis was about to blindly charge into a trap at the Dreadfort. At the tender age of 16 Jon already shows more tactical nous and strategic vision than Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danm_999 Posted April 12, 2013 Share Posted April 12, 2013 being outnumbered doesn't have to meen against the odds. the fact is he vastly out qualitied the wildlings and this is why he won with ease, there is no way they were going to hold rank against steal knights,The reason he won is because he managed to lead a smaller, more disciplined force in an attack that caught the Wildlings by surprise in their flank. Remember, whilst the steel knights were useful against foot soldiers, Stannis central column was getting stomped by giants on their mammoths. The quality of Stannis troops was not so great they could roflstomp their way to victory. They had to use superior tactics. at se he defeated starvation not mace, That's what a siege is. And for the defenders, that's what winning a siege is. mace wasn't even trying to take SE as he was trying to play it safe.Says who? Mace seems very emotionally invested in the idea of capturing Storm's End all throughout the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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