What am i missing about Briennes POV in AFFC?

[MsLibby]

People are granted a Knighthood, it's not given with a position. She would have had to have been Knighted by another knight or by the King.

[Faint]

There are many important details littering Brienne's chapters, albeit, most of them only tangentially related to her story. Just off the top of my head, Ser Shadrich is established as a character, who, going by Sansa's last chapter, will be important to future developments. We find out that the Hound is alive, which, again, I imagine will also be important for the story going forward. And even the sojourn to Crackclaw Point might prove relevant in the next two books, for all we know. Perhaps Daenerys decides to stage her landing there, given the fierce loyalty to the Targaryens amongst its people.

[Grail King]

I agree. I found the whole of AFfC and most of ADwD to be perplexing in that the story was moving along quite well by the end of AsoS, there were already enough plot lines and probably too many characters - so GRRM spends almost 2,000 pages creating MORE plot lines and characters? I was particularly annoyed at the obvious parallel line between the stories of Young Griff and Quentin. Both spend the bulk of ADwD trying to reach Dany, One does then dies horribly, the other gives up and heads back to Westeros.

I've never enjoyed literature that dwells endlessly on a hero's journey from A to B. It's about as entertaining as watching home movies of somebody else's vacation.

"Oh and here we are buying a gyro from a charming roadside vendor. It was tasty, but your uncle Ben got indigestion."

YAWN!!

I really hated how much of that was in "The Lord of the Rings," but it seems those bits were very influential on Mr. Martin.

I can only guess that GRRM really gets off on creating and developing characters and situations, but finds it a bit of a hard slog to actually resolve those situations and tie up the loose ends they create. I think I'm affirmed in my opinion by the fact that he claims that untying the Mereenese knot delayed ADwD by four or five years, but when it was finally published there's no evidence that the knot has really been untied.

ETA: [And same as you, I think that I subconsciously felt a lot of resentment that less interesting characters were pushing the ones I was really interested in (especially Arya!) off the page.]

I'm 60 years old and really don't expect to live forever, even if GRRM does. At present he's on track to finish the series sometime around 2022. And I live in fear that by the time book 6 is finally released there will be an announcement that he's expanded the story to 8 or 9 novels.

I'm 62 and feel your pain.

[KOM]

What everyone else has said, Brienne's pov's are an inquiry into chivalry. But also, she's skimboarding on the "wake of war." All the war that happened in ASOS, the armies have gone off, marauders and criminals roam the land and still haunt the smallfolk. All the corpses along the side of the road. The justice Tarly is dispensing.

Also, more than most I think, Brienne's pov's center not so much on her action, as the nugget drops of other people.

Lastly, her storyline is juxtaposed with Jaime's here for a reason. In the rest of the series the knights are the monsters, but here, chivalry to an extent lives. And Dunk connection is important here too.

[Castellan]

I have to admit that this was one of the many parts I skipped over on first reading - but I have since gone back and really liked it. I found her company uncomfortable -she seemed to have a pretty hopeless investigative style - and wanted the story to move on faster. I managed to miss her at Maidenpool and her excursion with Nimble Dick so that when I tuned back in I confused Hyle Hunt with that older knight she'd travelled with much earlier and thought she'd received a proposal from an ancient! However,....

I like the way her chapters parallel Jaime's chapters when he is riding back over ground he'd been when young. She has his bat shield, repainted, as well as his sword. We learn about the trick Renly's knights played on her and she seems to be coming to terms with it, the character of Hyle Hunt is introduced and I found that interesting, we also get quite detailed information about the history of attempts to marry her off. We see Randall Tarly in action and were it not for the casual cruelty to the diseased prostitute I'd be full of admiration - someone has to get reconstruction under way and he is doing it. I think its all the descriptive stuff and the sad atmosphere that is there to be appreciated, rather than the plot obviously being developed. The excursion to the Whispers is incredibly atmospheric - description of the eerie surrounds etc. It does seem a bit like we've slipped into another book entirely for a while - a smugglers tale or something - but its enjoyable.

I see the show down with the remnants of the Mummers as being reminiscent of both Jaime's dream which made him go back for Brienne and the scene in the bear pit: she's in an enclosed space with stone walls and a dirt/sand floor; Jaime's decides he must be in a sea cave under Castlery Rock in his dream and she hears the constant whisper of the waves because this is a similar Castle next to the sea; the ideas about 'the heads' and the whispering voices bring back elements of his dream which has voices of the dead; and she notes a Weirwood sapling growing in the space, the counterpart to the stump he slept next to. The scene is also like the bear pit in that she is facing her enemies again, but this time she has a proper sword, not a tourney sword. The sword, which amazes Hyle Hunt, is also like the blazing sword in Jaime's dream.

I thought the whole Septon Meribald and the Quiet Isle stuff was great the first time and on re-read. It brings a depth of feeling and a bit of moral vision.

So you can see if you are just obsessive enough you can go back and enjoy boring chapters.

[Fender]

People are granted a Knighthood, it's not given with a position. She would have had to have been Knighted by another knight or by the King.

Then would I be wrong to assume that Renly would certainly have knighted her, if she wasn't already a knight beforehand?

[danm_999]

Yes Brienne's chapters can seem rather narratively unfullfilling because you've just read ASoS, and you want to return to that breakneck pace. You, as the reader, know where Arya and Sansa are, so there's no tension in terms of whether Brienne will find them or not.

That said, the 'point' of Brienne's chapters is to get an on the ground view of how the war has affected people that haven't really had their voices heard yet. That means the hedge knights, the smallfolk, the wandering Septons like Meribald, and yes, Nimble Dick. It means getting more information on what war means for these people, which ties into the novel's major theme that Westeros is currently a feast for crows.

In addition, whilst they may seem rather filler-ish on first read, there's a lot of information in these chapters about characters and history we wouldn't have otherwise. We learn a bit about the Blackfyres, about the Defiance of Duskendale and how Aerys went mad, we learn about Crackclaw Point and it's pro-Targaryen leanings, we learn what happened to the Hound, to Gendry and the Brotherhood without Banners, to Rorge and Biter, and it sets up other crucial pieces of information that affect other POVs.

For example, Brienne meets Ser Shadrich, a hedge knight working for Varys looking for Sansa as well. We next meet Ser Shadrich in Sansa's final AFFC chapter; where he's taken up in service of Littlefinger at the Gates of the Moon.

[Lord Flashheart]

As the reader you know her quest is going to be fruitless, though it is still an excellent journey that if you aren't bummed by the lack of plot advancement can still be very enjoyable.

[Azzanadra]

Your not the only one, TBH AFFC has to be the most boring and pointless books I have ever read. Now, I have read worse books but ASOIAF books, being as long as they are makes it worse...

[kephv]

Possibly a lot. As others have stated, they're relevant on their own merits. However, there may also be important things overlooked that only become clear in hindsight.

[The Bear]

I always felt the main point was to bring Brienne into conflict with Stoneheart.

ETA: I'm surprised by the AFFC hate. I really enjoyed it.

[FuriousGeorge]

Yes Brienne's chapters can seem rather narratively unfullfilling because you've just read ASoS, and you want to return to that breakneck pace. You, as the reader, know where Arya and Sansa are, so there's no tension in terms of whether Brienne will find them or not.

That said, the 'point' of Brienne's chapters is to get an on the ground view of how the war has affected people that haven't really had their voices heard yet. That means the hedge knights, the smallfolk, the wandering Septons like Meribald, and yes, Nimble Dick. It means getting more information on what war means for these people, which ties into the novel's major theme that Westeros is currently a feast for crows.

In addition, whilst they may seem rather filler-ish on first read, there's a lot of information in these chapters about characters and history we wouldn't have otherwise. We learn a bit about the Blackfyres, about the Defiance of Duskendale and how Aerys went mad, we learn about Crackclaw Point and it's pro-Targaryen leanings, we learn what happened to the Hound, to Gendry and the Brotherhood without Banners, to Rorge and Biter, and it sets up other crucial pieces of information that affect other POVs.

For example, Brienne meets Ser Shadrich, a hedge knight working for Varys looking for Sansa as well. We next meet Ser Shadrich in Sansa's final AFFC chapter; where he's taken up in service of Littlefinger at the Gates of the Moon.

Its not that I want it to return to breakneck pace of SoS, even though I think that is the best book (but I haven't read GoT and i know a lot of people say that is better). I'm doing a degree in English Literature so am used to reading novels by people like Henry James and E.M. Forster, novels about which a lot of people have basically said 'literally nothing happens in them people just talk about life' which sometimes feels like its true I guess, its certainly a case of blink and you'll miss it. But I think I can deal with books that have a slow pace better than most people, its just bits of Brienne's story in AFFC don't seem to have that much worth. I made a mistake in my first post really because I said the whole thing is pointless when what I meant to say was that the Cracklaw Point diversion is pointless. I think I probably have missed a lot though. Also it really annoys me when people presume to second guess GRRM and D&D about the amount of time given to each character so its a bit hypocritical of me to moan that Arya doesn't get enough time in ADWD...even though she is clearly neglected.

[danm_999]

its just bits of Brienne's story in AFFC don't seem to have that much worth. I made a mistake in my first post really because I said the whole thing is pointless when what I meant to say was that the Cracklaw Point diversion is pointless.

Again I'd disagree on Cracklaw Point being pointless. Maybe in terms of moving the narrative ahead, but it gives a bunch of background and thematic material for the series. Off the top of my head, from the Cracklaw Point arc we get the backstory on the history of Aerys madness, Brienne's acquisition of Dunk's shield, we get the story of the Perfect Knight (hugely important to understanding Brienne as a character, as well as what the series is trying to say about chivalry and we see Brienne get her revenge on Shagwell and Timeon. There's a lot in those two or so chapters honestly.

[Pod The Impaler]

I have only read the books once (and cant really reread them until after I finish my degree) but it seems to me that Brienne's whole story line in the fourth book is completely pointless. The whole diversion with Nimble Dick (seemed like a diversion to me but maybe it was important in some way that I missed?) doesn't really go anywhere and just seems like a chance for Pod to be developed a little bit as a character? The only purpose that strand of the narrative serves as far as I can see is that it puts Brienne in the vicinity of the BwB, which could have been done in a lot less words with a lot fewer chapters. Considering as well that Arya (most interesting story IMO especially once she gets to Braavos) only has three chapters I don't understand why GRRM would devote so much time to a story line that goes nowhere so yeah what have I missed?

Personally, I found much the same on my first reading of it. It seemed very dense stuff and I kept asking "what is really happening anyway?".

It took a re-read for me to appreciate it more.

[FuriousGeorge]

Again I'd disagree on Cracklaw Point being pointless. Maybe in terms of moving the narrative ahead, but it gives a bunch of background and thematic material for the series. Off the top of my head, from the Cracklaw Point arc we get the backstory on the history of Aerys madness, Brienne's acquisition of Dunk's shield, we get the story of the Perfect Knight (hugely important to understanding Brienne as a character, as well as what the series is trying to say about chivalry and we see Brienne get her revenge on Shagwell and Timeon. There's a lot in those two or so chapters honestly.

Background shit about Aery's and miscellaneous items is cool don't get me wrong if you didn't enjoy those bits ASOIAF would be a massive slog but the whole Nimble Dick narrative is so contrived in my opinion and doesn't really serve a purpose apart from, as you say, letting Brienne get revenge.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

Someone described AFFC as a rumination of the costs of war. Brienne travels the riverlands and provides a POV of all the destruction that went on there.

IMO, AFFC as a whole, and particularly her chapters, have some of the best prose in the entire series. Septon Meribalds "broken men" speech was probably my favorite passage ever, it moves me still every time I read it.

Just because AFFC lacks action didn't make it bad writing. I didn't like it the first time around but appreciated it more the second (and 3rd) time. I think the book and particularly briennes chapters are underrated.

:agree: wonderfully put

[Grip]

Someone described AFFC as a rumination of the costs of war. Brienne travels the riverlands and provides a POV of all the destruction that went on there.

IMO, AFFC as a whole, and particularly her chapters, have some of the best prose in the entire series. Septon Meribalds "broken men" speech was probably my favorite passage ever, it moves me still every time I read it.

Just because AFFC lacks action didn't make it bad writing. I didn't like it the first time around but appreciated it more the second (and 3rd) time. I think the book and particularly briennes chapters are underrated.

Agree, well said! Brienne's chapters shows us the cost of war, how devastating it can be no matter how "noble" the cause. I think AFFC on the whole might be the book that benefits the most from rereads.

[Fightbringer]

I felt the same as you do about her storyline at first, but its pretty good upon re-read. When i read it at first i did it too quickly to get to the more exciting bits, but when you pay more attention to detail, its better, though still not great, its very well written by martin especially the septon meribald chapters, and the earlier chapters are mainly to provide background on westeros and brienne more than anything else

[The Black Wolf]

My issue with Brienne's chapters isn't that they aren't good. I like them, even though they aren't my favourites. However, did we really need all of it? I have similar problems, but on a larger scale, with the Quentyn chapters (and perhaps also with Connington and Victarion). Sure, it's always nice to see the story from someone elses perspective, but does the story really require all of these POVs? Quentyn's chapters, for instance, seem utterly superfluous, given that what we need to know could have been told through Arianne's, Dany's and Barristan's POVs (unless, perhaps, I missed something). Now, Brienne's chapters aren't quite on that same level to me. After all, we actually knew the character before and, as others have said, she provides some relevant insight on how war affects regular people. Still, to me it feels like her story could have been condensed. Not because it isn't interesting or well written, but because her chapters (to me) seem to slow down the story considerably.

[Kraken's Kiss]

.IMO, AFFC as a whole, and particularly her chapters, have some of the best prose in the entire series. Septon Meribalds "broken men" speech was probably my favorite passage ever, it moves me still every time I read it.

Could you or someone else post this? I don't have the book on my anymore.