Why do so many people think, Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly?

[Jacob Feybrad]

Because 14 year olds always plan ahead, think past their own hormones, and use amazing judgement?

As someone, who isn't much older than fourteen years, i can confirm, that yes, 14year olds always plan ahead, think past their own hormones and use absolutely amazing judgement. :P

[Ygrain]

If they were supposed to guard the King, they would be in King's Landing protecting the actual king, Aerys, instead of hanging out in Dorne at the command of Prince Rhaegar. There must then have been some other superceding command that kept them away from the king.

At the end, I think they stayed to die rather than surrender and seek pardon from the usurper. They had utterly failed their king and their honor would not allow them to serve another.

I don't think the notion of being king, as far as KG vows go, is something that is strictly inherited. Else why would KG choose different sides in the Targaeryan civil wars? Viserys was an exile, and though he might have styled himself as king, for all intents and purposes he was not the king of the seven kingdoms.

Further, according to ned's recollection, the KG are not protecting Jon, a baby, or anyone from anything. Ned takes no hostile action, levels no threats, or in any way suggests he wants to hurt anyone. So what exactly are the KG protecting a notional king from?

Also, if Ned was there, and spoke to Lyanna before she died, AND learned that she was married to Rhaegar, why does Ned still think of Jon as being a bastard in aGoT?

Out of the 7 KG, six can be assigned to whatever task which does not contradict an order from the king, as long as the seventh stays with the king.

If they preferred honourable death over their duty to guard the king, then they broke they vows - only, they specifically mention that they keep their vows, so this is not the case.

Ned is a rebel leader and the best friend of the guy who has just condoned the murder of RHaegar's children. That guy also happens to be Ned's new king, and Ned is honour-bound to reveal him the existence of another offspring of Rhaegar's. Figure out what happens next.

Ned doomed Jon to the stigma of being a bastard for his whole life.

If we learn anything about lyanna from arya's nature, it is that she loved her family dearly. If she went willing then would have been horrified and came running to save her brothers and father (see how arya tries to save rob and cat before RW? She was held against her will btw!). Also supposedly she ran and marriage was evaded, why didn't she contact anyone in two year then? seems like a classic kidnap case.

One year, not two, you have the timelines wrong.

As for the rest, read post 76.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

I'm trying to understand where you're getting this two year timespan from.

From wiki :

Robert's Rebellion, also known as the War of the Usurper, was a rebellion against House Targaryen, primarily instigated by Eddard Stark, Jon Arryn, and Robert Baratheon, for whom it is named. It lasted almost two years and resulted in the end of the Targaryen dynasty in the Seven Kingdoms and the beginning of Robert Baratheon's reign.

Rebellion was initiated when mad king killed bran and rick which was after lyanna was kidnapped. Rebellion ended way before ned found lyanna in her death bed.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

Out of the 7 KG, six can be assigned to whatever task which does not contradict an order from the king, as long as the seventh stays with the king.

If they preferred honourable death over their duty to guard the king, then they broke they vows - only, they specifically mention that they keep their vows, so this is not the case.

Ned is a rebel leader and the best friend of the guy who has just condoned the murder of RHaegar's children. That guy also happens to be Ned's new king, and Ned is honour-bound to reveal him the existence of another offspring of Rhaegar's. Figure out what happens next.

Ned doomed Jon to the stigma of being a bastard for his whole life.

Did you read my edited post? About KG vows not being something "inherited"? If King Robert is crowned in the light of the seven by the high septon, then knightly vows sworn to the seven apply to him, and not to Prince Viserys, who was never crowned and is now an exile.

The KG vowed to protect King Aerys and they failed miserably. Rather then swear to protect King Robert, the person who dethroned the king they swore to protect, they chose death. That makes much more sense to me than hanging around the ToJ to be found, then having a calm discussion with Ned, without even trying to sound out how he feels about his sister and the child, then starting a fight against unfavorable odds that would leave a notional king 'defenseless'.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

I guess she just forgot to charge her cell phone. Please tell me how she was supposed to communicate from a secret, abandoned location (not on the Raven Network) while maintaining everyone, including her own, safety?

I guess KG at TOJ had their phones fully recharged since they were in the same remote location. But they knew what happen in KL and how their brother betrayed them. Also they received a fast mail when mad king died. in that mail they had a new assignment to protect jon at all cost

[Ygrain]

From wiki :

Rebellion was initiated when mad king killed bran and rick which was after lyanna was kidnapped. Rebellion ended way before ned found lyanna in her death bed.

The page needs to be corrected, then - there is a two-year period between Harrenhall and the Sack (Jaime is fifteen at HH, 281, and seventeen when he kills Aerys283), Lyanna goes missing about a year after Harrenhall and meanwhile, Aegon is born in 282, from Cat's and Stannis' recollection, the war lasted for about a year.

Did you read my edited post? About KG vows not being something "inherited"? If King Robert is crowned in the light of the seven by the high septon, then knightly vows sworn to the seven apply to him, and not to Prince Viserys, who was never crowned and is now an exile.

The KG vowed to protect King Aerys and they failed miserably. Rather then swear to protect King Robert, the person who dethroned the king they swore to protect, they chose death. That makes much more sense to me than hanging around the ToJ to be found, then having a calm discussion with Ned, without even trying to sound out how he feels about his sister and the child, then starting a fight against unfavorable odds that would leave a notional king 'defenseless'.

No, I haven't, and this is not correct. Barristan swore again when he bent knee to Robert, and Viserys is king by the right of blood, he doesn't need a ceremony for that. Plus, when he was on Dragonstone, he was not in exile, he was still in Westeros.

I believe that "hanging around ToH" has been addressed many times, and certainly wouldn't prolong after Lyanna either died or recovered, and given the distances, it was tough luck that Ned managed to arrive in time.

They cannot have a calm discussion with Ned about the child because some secrets are best kept hidden and too dangerous to share, especially if you don't know whether you can trust the person to keep the secret.

The unfavourable odds were nearly won by Dayne, so the idea doesn't seem so suicidous after all.

[Ygrain]

I guess KG at TOJ had their phones fully recharged since they were in the same remote location. But they knew what happen in KL and how their brother betrayed them. Also they received a fast mail when mad king died. in that mail they had a new assignment to protect jon at all cost

Quite insubstantially, the circumstances slightly changed - you know, Hightower coming, Rhaegar leaving (regardless of the order), things going shitty for the Targs... perhaps some communication was established? Perhaps during that time when Ned took his army to Storms' End and travelled from there to ToJ, some news might have reached ToJ, especially as the news of the death of the king and his whole family is perhaps more grave and spreads faster than the news about the foolish behaviour of one young lordling?

BTW, are you going to respond to arguments, or ignore them as you did the last time?

[Squishysib]

Forgive me if this was mentioned, but wasn't it mentioned that Aerys in his paranoia sent all his Kingsguard away (except Jamie, whom he was using as a hostage against Tywin)?

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

No, I haven't, and this is not correct. Barristan swore again when he bent knee to Robert, and Viserys is king by the right of blood, he doesn't need a ceremony for that. Plus, when he was on Dragonstone, he was not in exile, he was still in Westeros.

Which is my point exactly. A new king means a new oath. Therefore, the KG at the ToJ would need to swear a new oath for whomever the new king was. And while Dragonstone might be part of Westeros, for all intents and purposes Viserys was in exile. After the sack of King's Landing it was clear the Targaeryans lost the war. I seriously doubt anyone expected Viserys to launch a counterattach from Dragonstone and retake the seven kingdoms.

I believe that "hanging around ToH" has been addressed many times, and certainly wouldn't prolong after Lyanna either died or recovered, and given the distances, it was tough luck that Ned managed to arrive in time.

And I disagree. If their priority is to save a king, they would take the child whether the mother was ready to go or not. If Jon, or another child was present, Ned had no trouble finding Wylla in time to nurse the baby. That means either a nursemaid was already present, or it wasn't too severe a hardship to take this baby to Starfall to find a nurse. Why wouldn't the KG be able to do the same?

They cannot have a calm discussion with Ned about the child because some secrets are best kept hidden and too dangerous to share, especially if you don't know whether you can trust the person to keep the secret.

The unfavourable odds were nearly won by Dayne, so the idea doesn't seem so suicidous after all.

I don't believe that the three knights of the kingsguard reasonably believed they could win that battle.

[nirolo]

Which is my point exactly. A new king means a new oath. Therefore, the KG at the ToJ would need to swear a new oath for whomever the new king was. And while Dragonstone might be part of Westeros, for all intents and purposes Viserys was in exile. After the sack of King's Landing it was clear the Targaeryans lost the war. I seriously doubt anyone expected Viserys to launch a counterattach from Dragonstone and retake the seven kingdoms.

When Robert dies and Joffrey becomes king, does Barristan bend the knee again? I can't remember.

Can't it be argued that Barristan bends his knee to Robert again because of a change of Dynasty rather than just a change of kings?

And could you attach a link to your edited post, I'd be interested to read it.

ETA:

I don't believe that the three knights of the kingsguard reasonably believed they could win that battle.

I would have to disagree with you on this one. Right before the the 3 KGs clash with Ned, Arthur Dayne says, "Now it begins." At least according to Ned's recollection.

So I do think the KGs think they could win.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

When Robert dies and Joffrey becomes king, does Barristan bend the knee again? I can't remember.

Can't it be argued that Barristan bends his knee to Robert again because of a change of Dynasty rather than just a change of kings?

And could you attach a link to your edited post, I'd be interested to read it.

I don't think we're really shown whether the KG swear a new vow to Joffrey after he becomes king, but there isn't anything to say they don't either. However, as Joffrey requires his bannermen to swear allegience (and doesn't stannis do the same, when declaring himself king?) I think it would make sense for bannermen, KG, and everyone else to swear a new oath for each new king/lord.

I'll just repost...

If they were supposed to guard the King, they would be in King's Landing protecting the actual king, Aerys, instead of hanging out in Dorne at the command of Prince Rhaegar. There must then have been some other superceding command that kept them away from the king.

At the end, I think they stayed to die rather than surrender and seek pardon from the usurper. They had utterly failed their king and their honor would not allow them to serve another.

I don't think the notion of being king, as far as KG vows go, is something that is strictly inherited. Else why would KG choose different sides in the Targaeryan civil wars? Viserys was an exile, and though he might have styled himself as king, for all intents and purposes he was not the king of the seven kingdoms.

Further, according to ned's recollection, the KG are not protecting Jon, a baby, or anyone from anything. Ned takes no hostile action, levels no threats, or in any way suggests he wants to hurt anyone. So what exactly are the KG protecting a notional king from?

Also, if Ned was there, and spoke to Lyanna before she died, AND learned that she was married to Rhaegar, why does Ned still think of Jon as being a bastard in aGoT?

[nirolo]

I don't think we're really shown whether the KG swear a new vow to Joffrey after he becomes king, but there isn't anything to say they don't either. However, as Joffrey requires his bannermen to swear allegience (and doesn't stannis do the same, when declaring himself king?) I think it would make sense for bannermen, KG, and everyone else to swear a new oath for each new king/lord.

I'll just repost...

Here's Barristan's reaction immediately after he hears of Robert's passing:

Ser Barristan Selmy was the first to answer the summons, immaculate in white cloak and enameled scales. “my lords,” he said, “my place is beside the young king now. Pray give me leave to attend him.”

If Dayne and Hightower are the type of knights we are led to believe, then I'd reasonably assume their reaction upon hearing the death of Aerys II would be the same as Barristan and immediately go to the the heir-apparent.

[Moët]

Here's Barristan's reaction immediately after he hears of Robert's passing:

If Dayne and Hightower are the type of knights we are led to believe, then I'd reasonably assume their reaction upon hearing the death of Aerys II would be the same as Barristan and immediately go to the the heir-apparent.

Unless they're already WITH the heir apparent. Barristan has no idea Jon has been born, and probably the only witnesses to the marriage are the three KG at the ToJ.

Robert is a usurper.

See: Houses Lancaster (Targaryens), and York (Baratheon).

[Dragonfish]

From wiki :

Rebellion was initiated when mad king killed bran and rick which was after lyanna was kidnapped. Rebellion ended way before ned found lyanna in her death bed.

The wiki is probably dating the end of the war at the fall of Dragonstone. However, for the purposes of this discussion, we are talking about the period between Lyanna's "kidnapping" and her death, which would've been not long after the Sack, or around a year or so into the war.

[Nictarion]

He was a silver haired prince who crowend her Queen of Love and Beauty, over his own wife.

Not to mention Ned was with Lyanna in her final moments, and may know something we don't. Given Ned doesn't bear ill will towards Rhaegar for the most part, I would think it's because Rhaegar actually didn't kidnap and rape his sister, and more along the lines of her wanting him as well.

:agree:

[RenlyIsNotRight]

[nirolo]

Unless they're already WITH the heir apparent. Barristan has no idea Jon has been born, and probably the only witnesses to the marriage are the three KG at the ToJ.

Robert is a usurper.

See: Houses Lancaster (Targaryens), and York (Baratheon).

Yes. I should have added that if Dayne and Hightower behave like Barristan, then upon hearing Aery's demise they should have gone to Viserys, who is the commonly accepted "heir apparent" in the books. Yet the 3 KGs are at the ToJ. This creates a logical disconnect between what is expected of them and their actual behavior. But the KGs predicated their presence at the Tower on their KG vow. Thus the speculation that the actual (legitimate) heir to the throne is at the ToJ rather than somewhere else (i.e. Viserys).

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

Yes. I should have added that if Dayne and Hightower behave like Barristan, then upon hearing Aery's demise they should have gone to Viserys, who is the commonly accepted "heir apparent" in the books. Yet the 3 KGs are at the ToJ. This creates a logical disconnect between what is expected of them and their actual behavior. But the KGs predicated their presence at the Tower on their KG vow. Thus the speculation that the actual (legitimate) heir to the throne is at the ToJ rather than somewhere else (i.e. Viserys).

You mean behave like Barristan after Robert's death, and not like Barristan after Rhaegar's death when he accepted a pardon and the end of the Targaeryans.

Anyway, here is the quote I mentioned earlier.

From Eddard 9:

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding that rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lust?

For context, this is just after the visit to the brothel with Littlefinger where Ned met the young prostitute who had one of Robert's bastards.

In this quote, Ned is clearly associating Jon Snow with bastards, and not just because Ned has "condemned Jon Snow to the life of a bastard", but rather because he is the product of men's lust that lead to bastards.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think a better question is, why do people think Rhaegar abducted her against her will when the only people saying that are Robert (who wants to believe it) and Bran (who has second- or third-hand information)? Just about everyone else strongly implies that whatever they had was consensual.

[RedDeadWedding]

Even if Rhaegar married Lyanna in addition to Elia, (something that hasn't happened since Aegon the conquerer and Maegor the Cruel), that still only makes Jon King after Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon. And Rhaella and Elia after her still would be Queen-Regent even if they were all dead. There's no reason for three of the seven Kingsguard to be at the Tower of Joy, least of all their Lord-Commander. Obviously they had already gone rogue and were following Rhaegar's commands, which means they can be there Jon being a Targ or no.

Jon is king after no one.. he is a brother of the Night's Watch