The Theory of Everything

[J. Stargaryen]

Two Kings did die when Jon was born; Aerys and Rheagar (father and son). Both bled right about the time Jon was born. Maybe like Dany and the funeral pyre, we have the same thing happening when Jon was born - a Queen (Ice/wife/moon) who died giving birth to a child whose Prince father (Fire/dragon/sun) and his King Grandfather die around the same time he is born.

Rhaegar died at least a couple of weeks before the sack. But remember, Aerys was murdered by Jaime and then his heir, baby Aegon, was murdered by the Mountain, unless you believe that YG is the real Aegon. So you still could have "two kings to wake the dragon" happening in that scenario.

[Alia of the knife]

JS, this is really an awesome theory, and for me, it is especially meaningful as an origin story for both Houses, Targaryen and Stark.

But, it is also addresses something, at least for me, that has nagged at me regarding the themes of "cycles," and the fact that they need to be broken. My sense is that until the bloodlines are united together, all the imbalance in the aSoIaF universe will continue.

Your reference to the Dothraki is a good one as well regarding the moon. I have always linked House Stark with the moon primarily because of the Authors likely influences of what he grew up in terms of cinematic experience, and of course the "wolf" has always been closely associated with the werewolf mythos, (i.e, wargs. or the ability of a man to transform into one).

And of course, in terms of the power of "silver," the purity and clarity figures heavily into the descriptive association of both houses.

But, as Martin is American, he probably is also likely influenced by the Native American traditions on the wolf, and the Native American myths of "Skin Walkers," (again, Wargs).

In another thread on the creative origins of the Dothraki, and the observation that Martin likes to combine the traits of the different cultures, (i.e., the Dornish are a hybrid of the Welsh and the Spanish, with Mediterranean influences as well according to Martin), it was discussed that the Dothraki were a mixture of the Huns, Mongolian with Native American influences as they are all nomadic and tended to be "horse" cultures with great reverence of the animal.

When I think of the beauty of Lyanna, and likely later, Arya, I think of their beauty as "lunar," and of the night, whereas the Martells, Targaryens and even the Lannisters are more of the sun and the "light."

Though Sansa is a Stark, to me she symbolizes fire and light, at least on an esoteric level.

Then there are also the inferences to the Starks potentially questionable past, and the Nights king with union with "Other," thought the Others themselves may not be anymore evil than the dragons are good. Martin compared the "Others" to the Irish Sidhe.

But, in terms of the symbolisms of the moon, and your observations, here are a few other details:

Moon Meanings and Moon Symbolism

"Throughout nature we find a cavalcade of energetic counterparts: Light/Dark, Male/Female, Increase/Decrease, etc., and the moon takes her place in the balance as the counter part to the sun.

The sun is symbolic of the fraternal (male, yang) aspect of guidance; and so logically the moon stoically stands as the maternal (female or yin) influence.

This gender association is a generalization, and (as with most symbolic meanings) there are departures. Moon symbolism in Native American tribes (Navajo, Eskimo, Pueblo come to mind), along with African, Japanese, Maori, Teutonic, Oceania, and Sumerian-Semitic groups refer to the moon as a masculine force.

More intriguing than gender, is the means by which the moon wields her force and influence. She is considered a luminary, but she produces no light of her own accord. She is reliant upon the sun's light to reflect (mirror) her image to our earthly eyes.

This method of projecting light makes the moon a symbol of subtlety. Clarity, reflection, and indirect deduction are gained by passive means. Where the sun will boldly bear down its blaze upon a given philosophical subject - the moon softly enfolds our attention - illumining our psyche in a gossamer glow that is more open to esoteric impressions."

Some key words relating to symbolic moon facts include...

Symbolic Moon Meanings

• Time
  
• Cycles
  
• Psyche
  
• Wonder
  
• Shadow
  
• Balance
  
• Renewal
  
• Mystery
  
• Emotion
  
• Intuition
  
• Passivity
  
• Influence
  
• Fertility
  
• Transition
  
• Femininity
  
• Perception
  
• Progression
  
• Receptivity
  
• Illumination
  

Also, in terms of the moon as "Queen of the Night," she is also the matron of all animals nocturnal, and in going back to alchemy, silver is associated with purity, clarity and wisdom.

Observation on "Lightbringer:"

I had once felt that the Daynes "Dawn" may have something to do with "Lightbringer," but now wonder if it won't have something to do with the reunification of Ice, and Gendry involved in it's forging, just as the possible reunification of Rhaegars rubies? And finally, I would not be surprised to see at series end, with the two Houses, and within the context of this theory, reunited with the union of Jon and Arya. As unappealing as I know this notion is for some, it brings the "song" full circle and helps to replenish the ebbing bloodlines of both families, Targaryen and Stark.

[J. Stargaryen]

<snip>

Thank you!

Just to clarify for "the audience" about Jon + Arya. Early in the thread Sevumar challenged me to account for the connection between the Vale and the moon, since they are linked by way of the Arryn sigil (falcon and moon), Mountains of the Moon, Moon Gate, etc. But, the Vale is not the only place where you see a number of moon references.

Braavos was founded by the Moonsingers, 500 years before Aegon's landing. There's the Moon Pool, the Temple of the Moonsingers, which is described as the "greatest" temple in Braavos, and the doors at the Temple of Black and White. The latter two are described in AFfC, Arya I as:

It was one of those that Arya had spied from the lagoon, a mighty mass of snow-white marble topped by a huge silvered dome whose milk glass windows showed all the phases of the moon. A pair of marble maidens flanked its gates, tall as the Sealords, supporting a crescent-shaped lintel. - Temple of the Moonsingers

[...]

At the top she found a set of carved wooden doors twelve feet high. The left-hand door was made of weirwood pale as bone, the right of gleaming ebony. In their center was a carved moon face; ebony on the weirwood side, weirwood on the ebony. The look of it reminded her somehow of the heart tree in the godswood at Winterfell. The doors are watching me, she thought. She pushed upon both doors at once with the flat of her gloved hands, but neither one would budge. Locked and barred. “Let me in, you stupid,” she said. “I crossed the narrow sea.” She made a fist and pounded. “Jaqen told me to come. I have the iron coin.” She pulled it from her pouch and held it up. “See? Valar morghulis.” - House of Black and White

The repeated moon motif isn't the only thing the Vale and Braavos have in common, as both are currently inhabited, not only by two of our main POV characters, but two Stark women!

Now, in the OP I hypothesize that the Astronomy and Polygamy tale is relaying the origin story of the Starks and Targaryens, however; it's just as likely – hell, probably more so – that it's telling us about R+L=J or a future polygamous marriage. If it's the latter then Arya and Sansa seem to be likely candidates for the wives.

[QueenOfWhiteWalkers]

Wow, I had goosebumps :(

[J. Stargaryen]

The description of the Temple of the Moonsingers mentioned above makes for an interesting read to me. Here it is again, along with some accompanying thoughts; AFfC, Arya I:

It was one of those that Arya had spied from the lagoon, a mighty mass of snow-white marble topped by a huge silvered dome whose milk glass windows showed all the phases of the moon. A pair of marble maidens flanked its gates, tall as the Sealords, supporting a crescent-shaped lintel.

Fyi, a lintel is a horizontally shaped support over a door or window, made out of wood, stone, etc.

Before I continue, I wanted to mention a discovery I made concerning crescent-shaped moon symbolism. In English heraldry it denotes a second son, according to wikipedia:

In English and Canadian heraldry a crescent is the cadence mark of a second son.

So, it appears to me as if we could have: two maidens supporting a second son. Which would seem to symbolically reinforce the Jon + Sansa & Arya interpretation of the Astronomy and Polygamy tale, as both girls are maidens and Jon is a second son.

"Second son" itself being a somewhat recurring theme. Besides the sellsword company, Jon, Bran and Tyrion are all second-born sons. I wonder if there couldn't be some wordplay at work here with second son/second sun, which would be convenient for my OP. :) Or, again, it could be that the original poly-trio was R+E&L.

The mentions of: "snow-white marble," "milk-glass," "silvered dome" and the "phases of the moon" – not to mention the fact that the marble maidens are described as being "as tall as the Sealords," which reminds me of Tyrion's shadow – are all very interesting, too. AGoT, Jon I:

When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

So, there is a lot going on in that passage, imo. I don't know if I have the right of it wrt to the marble maidens and crescent-shaped lintel, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

---

Wow, I had goosebumps :(

Thanks, I think. Or sorry? I'm not sure. :lol:

[yolkboy]

Before I continue, I wanted to mention a discovery I made concerning crescent-shaped moon symbolism. In English heraldry it denotes a second son, according to wikipedia:

So, it appears to me as if we could have: two maidens supporting a second son. Which would seem to symbolically reinforce the Jon + Sansa & Arya interpretation of the Astronomy and Polygamy tale, as both girls are maidens and Jon is a second son.

"Second son" itself being a somewhat recurring theme. Besides the sellsword company, Jon, Bran and Tyrion are all second-born sons. I wonder if there couldn't be some wordplay at work here with second son/second sun, which would be convenient for my OP. :) Or, again, it could be that the original poly-trio was R+E&L.

Yes, second sons does seem to be a theme, and I would add that the Valonqar (little brother) prophesy really adds weight to that. Your discovery about the crescent moon seems to fit your Polygamy theory nicely, and the possible wordplay with sun and son is something which probably goes on in the books elsewhere, but i haven't looked at it. If there was examples of that going on already, it would add weight to the argument.

[King Robert's Warhammer]

42

[Alia of the knife]

The description of the Temple of the Moonsingers mentioned above makes for an interesting read to me. Here it is again, along with some accompanying thoughts; AFfC, Arya I:

Fyi, a lintel is a horizontally shaped support over a door or window, made out of wood, stone, etc.

Before I continue, I wanted to mention a discovery I made concerning crescent-shaped moon symbolism. In English heraldry it denotes a second son, according to wikipedia:

So, it appears to me as if we could have: two maidens supporting a second son. Which would seem to symbolically reinforce the Jon + Sansa & Arya interpretation of the Astronomy and Polygamy tale, as both girls are maidens and Jon is a second son.

"Second son" itself being a somewhat recurring theme. Besides the sellsword company, Jon, Bran and Tyrion are all second-born sons. I wonder if there couldn't be some wordplay at work here with second son/second sun, which would be convenient for my OP. :) Or, again, it could be that the original poly-trio was R+E&L.

The mentions of: "snow-white marble," "milk-glass," "silvered dome" and the "phases of the moon" – not to mention the fact that the marble maidens are described as being "as tall as the Sealords," which reminds me of Tyrion's shadow – are all very interesting, too. AGoT, Jon I:

So, there is a lot going on in that passage, imo. I don't know if I have the right of it wrt to the marble maidens and crescent-shaped lintel, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

---

Thanks, I think. Or sorry? I'm not sure. :lol:

Again, an awesome analysis, and you tie in the textual relevance with the possible, marital outcome of Jon, Arya, and perhaps even Sansa, (though for some reason, I don't know that she makes it given the foreshadowing of Ladys sacrifice).

But, the other piece of this too are the historical parallels and ramifications. Coming off another thread that compares the Targaryens/Normans, Jon/Henry VII, and Wales/Scotland, the Plantaganets had to "marry" Wales for unification, just as the Targaryens had to marry Dorne. Later we see Henry VII marry his oldest daughter to the King of Scotland, so while not exact, we see marriage as a tool for alliance, and I suspect that the North will have to be "married" the same way Dorne was for unification, and in that, Jon "marrying" the North occupies both roles and through their offspring, the two kingdoms are united again.

Coming back to your observations on the moon, referencing the Native American traditions and other indigenous peoples in that the moon is a masculine force, it is certainly an indicator of Jon and significant given his his Stark heritage.

As an aside, in Frank Herberts "Dune," the moon is also a prominent fixture as it represents Paul Maudibs bound concubine, and mother of his children, Chani. Paul was also married, politically, to the Princess Irulan, so in a sense he too was supported by two maidens and he also was actually a second son. :cool4:

And I concur, this thread gives me goose bumps too. :)

I think Authors are very deliberate in referencing meaningful things, (nature, cycles, environment, etc.), that are part of the human experience so it's not a surprise to find parallels between different works.

[Ygrain]

So, if we're into the poly-thing, we have already had a guy supported by two sisters - Aegon the Conqueror. I'm just, uhm, tad uncomfortable with the implications for J+A+S :P

The theme of the second sons is pretty intriguing - they are actually the underdogs who rarely end up with any power, both in RL and in stories - in medieval/Westerosi era, it was the firstborn who had the spotlight; in stories, it's the third, the youngest, who becomes the hero. I wonder if GRRM chooses second sons on purpose, as a sort of compensation.

[J. Stargaryen]

Yes, second sons does seem to be a theme, and I would add that the Valonqar (little brother) prophesy really adds weight to that. Your discovery about the crescent moon seems to fit your Polygamy theory nicely, and the possible wordplay with sun and son is something which probably goes on in the books elsewhere, but i haven't looked at it. If there was examples of that going on already, it would add weight to the argument.

I agree that there should be examples of similar wordplay – son/sun – elsewhere in the books if that is indeed the case here. If GRRM likes an idea, he'll use the heck out of it. That's for sure.

42

Obviously.

Again, an awesome analysis, and you tie in the textual relevance with the possible, marital outcome of Jon, Arya, and perhaps even Sansa, (though for some reason, I don't know that she makes it given the foreshadowing of Ladys sacrifice).

<snip>

I think only one of the moons is meant to survive long-term, which certainly fits with your way of thinking here. And it seems to me like one of those wives could die in child birth.

You know, one of the things that made me think of Jon and Sansa was the AA prophecy:

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

Though it's far from definitive, Sansa would fit here because she is currently under the guise of Alayne Stone.

So, if we're into the poly-thing, we have already had a guy supported by two sisters - Aegon the Conqueror. I'm just, uhm, tad uncomfortable with the implications for J+A+S :P

The theme of the second sons is pretty intriguing - they are actually the underdogs who rarely end up with any power, both in RL and in stories - in medieval/Westerosi era, it was the firstborn who had the spotlight; in stories, it's the third, the youngest, who becomes the hero. I wonder if GRRM chooses second sons on purpose, as a sort of compensation.

I realize that almost nobody is going to be fond of any theory that has Jon ending up married to Sansa and/or Arya. However, the clues lead where they do. Regardless of how we feel about it, Sansa and Arya are currently in the two places in the story that are strongly associated with the moon. Combined with the Astronomy and Polygamy tale, well...

Being honest, I'm not bothered by the idea of J+S. They're cousins and were never very close. Even though they are also technically only cousins, J+A is more disturbing to me because of their past relationship; e.g., ASoS, Arya VIII:

“He’s with the Night’s Watch on the Wall.” Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn’t care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair... “Jon looks like me, even though he’s bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me ‘little sister. “‘ Arya missed Jon most of all. just saying his name made her sad. “How do you know about Jon?”

Then again, it might be that I'm just uncomfortable viewing little Arya as a woman grown.

[FrozenFire3]

So, it appears to me as if we could have: two maidens supporting a second son. Which would seem to symbolically reinforce the Jon + Sansa & Arya interpretation of the Astronomy and Polygamy tale, as both girls are maidens and Jon is a second son.

Your analyses are amongst the few reasons that keep me active on these boards :bowdown:

Not much to add, except for a Greek mithology bit supporting both the ritual recurrence of the triad and offering some interesting parallels. Selene, goddess of the moon, is sister of the sun-god Helios and of Eos, goddess of the dawn. The 3 siblings are children to the titans Hyperion and Theia who are, well, brother and sister.

Ah, and the name Selene contains the root selas which means... light.

[J. Stargaryen]

Your analyses are amongst the few reasons that keep me active on these boards :bowdown:
Not much to add, except for a Greek mithology bit supporting both the ritual recurrence of the triad and offering some interesting parallels. Selene, goddess of the moon, is sister of the sun-god Helios and of Eos, goddess of the dawn. The 3 siblings are children to the titans Hyperion and Theia who are, well, brother and sister.
Ah, and the name Selene contains the root selas which means... light.

Thanks! That's quite the compliment coming from someone with so many :bowdown: -worthy posts. Speaking of...

You reminded me that Antony and Cleopatra had fraternal twins they named Alexander Helios (sun) and Cleopatra Selene (moon) II. I don't think it's an exact historical parallel, but it arguably reinforces the sibling aspect of the sun-moon relationship.

[J. Stargaryen]

There was a potentially related find in the sapphire thread to some of my recent musings here. The premise of that thread is sapphires = secrets. An expanded upon version of that premise is that the secret relates to identity, which was described as false self:

"As they passed, each warrior stripped off his treasures and tossed them into one of the carts that the stewards had placed before the gate. Amber pendants, golden torques, jeweled daggers, silver brooches set with gem-stones, bracelets, rings, niello cups and golden goblets, warhorns and drinkinghorns, a green jade comb, a necklace of freshwater pearls ... all yielded up and noted down by Bowen Marsh. One man surrendered a shirt of silver scales that had surely been made for some great lord. Another produced a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt"

- ADwD

A broken sword flies on the banner of the Second Sons. Now if the three sapphires mean something like three false selves/hidden identities that certainly could apply to Jon, Sansa and Arya. Which might just strengthen a connection I mentioned up thread:

So, it appears to me as if we could have: two maidens supporting a second son. Which would seem to symbolically reinforce the Jon + Sansa & Arya interpretation of the Astronomy and Polygamy tale, as both girls are maidens and Jon is a second son.

"Second son" itself being a somewhat recurring theme. Besides the sellsword company, Jon, Bran and Tyrion are all second-born sons. I wonder if there couldn't be some wordplay at work here with second son/second sun, which would be convenient for my OP. :) Or, again, it could be that the original poly-trio was R+E&L.

[Alia of the knife]

Jon S.,

I know you answered me on the other thread, but could you once again elaborate upon that piece, and how that might reflect on the relationship of R+L, and what it means for Jon as their offspring?

I'm starting to get my mythologies mixed up, lol, but I think there is a mythology about the Sun chasing the Moon. I know in Norse mythology that both are chased by wolves.

[Frey family reunion]

J.S. I like your analysis of the moonsinger's temple. But instead of the notion of Sansa and Arya supporting Jon, couldn't it stand for them supporting Bran instead? Bran's stay in the cave was marked by the reoccurrence of the crescent moon, wasn't it?

[Little Balerion]

Azor Ahai; i.e, the Targaryens (as the remaining Valyrian dragonlords) and Starks.

According to this theory, the Lightbringer origin story contains the following symbolism:

Azor Ahai = House Targaryen

Water = Rhoynar (specifically House Martell)

Lion = Andals (various Targ+Andal marriages ... or ... if you believe A+J=C&J/T)

Nissa Nissa = First Men (specifically Lyanna of House Stark)

Brilliant! Mindblown :bowdown: So the first AA was a Targ who drove his sword through an Andal, then a Rhoynar, then finally through his Stark wife.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I've long felt that TPTWP/AAR will be the offspring of the two different lines of magical blood... fire and ice... Targaryen and Stark.

I can't decide whether they were ever from one descendant, and if so, where did its magic originate?

[Lady Arya's Song]

Jay Stargaryen.

Really wonderful thread.

Have you considered moonstones also being important. Below are the characters who wear moonstones.

Sansa wears moonstones given to her by Joffrey.

Lysa Tully wears moonstones

Lord Sunglass wore moonstones

Sweets wore moonstones

Marillion was given moonstones by Lysa Tully

Harlows heir has moonstones in his pommel.

What do all these characters have in common? sacrifice.

Sansa is a living sacrifice being held by the Lannisters to keep Jaime alive while he is captive.

Lysa Tully wears saffires and moonstones. The saffires are her secret about poisoning her husband but she is also a sacrifice that Little finger is using to screen his moves in the game of thrones.

Lord Sunglass is a sacrifice via Melisandre for Stannis

Marillion another sacrifice used by LF to hide his killing of Lysa

Harlow's heir is used by Euron Greayjoy..he gives him some honor which undermines his being alive later to be the Readers heir.

I am wondering if Sansa's moonstone necklace might be more than just the Lannisters using her ..but perhaps she is a sacrifice in your theory of two sisters and Jon

Sorry I forgot Sweets tells Tyrion and Penny that if their master dies, the favorites will be killed so they can serve the Master in the afterlife and she is his favorite..so she would be the first sacrifice.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

In scientific terms, a Theory of Everything tries to combine quantum physics and general relativity into one theory. Here I attempt something slightly more ambitious by proposing a creation myth for the Targaryens and Starks which involves Azor Ahai. Using that as a basis, I then suggest a possible answer to the riddle that is the Lightbringer origin story.

As with science's ToE, there are some pitfalls. Specifically with the aforementioned Lightbringer origin story, as it is extremely difficult to pin down exactly what it means. Because of this, I must admit that my speculation falls under the umbrella of crackpottery, but that's standard operating procedure for most Lightbringer theories. The other part, which I explain first, stands on firmer ground.

Astronomy & Polygamy:

We know that the Dothraki believe that the sun and moon are gods, though that doesn't mean much on its own. The interesting part is that they believe the moon is female, and married to the sun.

This parallel is reaffirmed through Dany and Drogo:

Having undeniably established that "sun" = husband and "moon" = wife, what are we to make of the bolded portion of the Qartheen tale told by Doreah in Daenerys III, AGoT?

Since sun + moon = husband & wife, it follows that sun (husband) + moon (wife) + moon (wife) = polygamous marriage. But that's not all.

Doreah also tells us that "dragons came from the moon", and I think I know what that means. From reading this series, we all know that "dragon" is an established code word for Targaryen. In this case, I think we can reasonably extrapolate the symbolic use of "dragon" to all Valyrian dragonlords. After all, "blood of the dragon" only became unique to the Targaryens post-Doom.

So what does it all mean? That many thousands of years ago a man, probably the character we call Azor Ahai, was married to two women simultaneously. One of these women birthed the line that would eventually become the dragonlords of old Valyria. If the above is true, then it is a small thematic leap to assume that Azor Ahai and his other wife are the progenitors of House Stark. A Song of Ice and Fire.

According to this theory, the Starks and the Targaryens (re: Valyrians) share a common ancestor in Azor Ahai, but the wargs/greenseers came from one wife, while the dragonlords came from the other. If true, this second wife could quite accurately be called the Mother of Dragons.

A couple of additional points that I will probably elaborate on eventually: Azor Ahai and these women were most likely First Men, and; I think at least one of the trio was a member of House Dayne.

---

Forging Lightbringer:

According to legend, Azor Ahai tried to temper Lightbringer three times before he was successful: first in water, next in the heart of a lion, and finally in the heart of his beloved Nissa Nissa. There have been a number of attempts to decipher the meaning of this tale, and now I've one of my own.

The King of Westeros -- for over two and a half centuries a Valyrian -- is announced as King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men; the three human races of Westeros. I can't help but wonder if the Lightbringer origin story doesn't symbolically represent the (likely unknown) "attempts" to unite the two different bloodlines of Azor Ahai; i.e, the Targaryens (as the remaining Valyrian dragonlords) and Starks.

According to this theory, the Lightbringer origin story contains the following symbolism:

Azor Ahai = House Targaryen

Water = Rhoynar (specifically House Martell)

Lion = Andals (various Targ+Andal marriages ... or ... if you believe A+J=C&J/T)

Nissa Nissa = First Men (specifically Lyanna of House Stark)

So, the Targaryens married and mated with the Martells and various Andals*, but this never produced Lightbringer, or AAr/tPtwP, or any other savior. But the one time they married and mated with House Stark; Jon Snow.

For the record, the other Targ-First Men union that we know of produced an awfully strong greenseer in Bloodraven. I think this might have been an indicator that a union of Valyrian + First Men was on the right track, so to speak.

Does this mean Jon Snow is Lightbringer? Maybe, maybe not. The "forging" of Lightbringer may refer to the power created by combining Houses Stark and Targaryen, be that magic (warg+dragon lord), or royal (KitN+IT), or maybe both. Jon could just as well be Azor Ahai reborn, who realizes his destiny when he begins to "wield" this power as a metaphorical weapon.

*Wrt to the Lion (in turn Lannister) as representative of the Andals, I'm aware of the fact that they trace their origin back to Lann the Clever, who was First Men. Over the centuries they've become more or less completely Andal, as far as we know.

---

TL;DR:

• Azor Ahai was married to two women simultaneously.
• One of them birthed the Valyrian dragonlords;
• the other birthed House Stark.
• R+L=J unites Azor Ahai's two magical bloodlines.
• This union resulted in, or will result in, Lightbringer. Whether that literally means Jon or the power he "wields" is not clear to me.

I LOVE this! I may have an idea for Lightbringer, although you may not like it, since it may be a bit crackpot. ;)

Okay, let's explore the two stories again:

The trader from Qarth stated to Doreah:

"Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."

According to the AA myth as told by Salladhor Saan:

"Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes."

Could these stories be referencing the same "weapon" in different ways? I think it's very likely.

The moon=Nissa Nissa

The sun=Azor Ahai

Cracking=stabbing

Dragons=Lightbringer

Then there's this:

According to the myth, in battle, Lightbringer burned fiery hot (dragons emit heat). When he thrust his sword in the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil, smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flames.

Then, when Drogon burned Kraznys, a lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks...

--so, in the text, both Lightbringer and dragon heat are compared to be somewhat the same. This could all be a coincidence or me reading to much into things, but it could also mean something else.

AA would need to be reborn and will have to reforge Lightbringer. I think that's where your interpretation comes into play, because I believe that your interpretation represents the current state of events.

Azor Ahai = House Targaryen

Water = Rhoynar (specifically House Martell)

Lion = Andals (various Targ+Andal marriages ... or ... if you believe A+J=C&J/T)

Nissa Nissa = First Men (specifically Lyanna of House Stark)

So, the Targaryens married and mated with the Martells and various Andals*, but this never produced Lightbringer, or AAr/tPtwP, or any other savior. But the one time they married and mated with House Stark; Jon Snow.

Does this mean Jon Snow is Lightbringer? Maybe, maybe not. The "forging" of Lightbringer may refer to the power created by combining Houses Stark and Targaryen, be that magic (warg+dragon lord), or royal (KitN+IT), or maybe both. Jon could just as well be Azor Ahai reborn, who realizes his destiny when he begins to "wield" this power as a metaphorical weapon.

Thus the power of combining House Stark and House Targaryren creates an immensely powerful warg+dragon lord that could potentially warg a dragon...a dragon that could be seen as Lightbringer(reforged) being wielded by AAR(Jon). :)

[J. Stargaryen]

J.S.,

I know you answered me on the other thread, but could you once again elaborate upon that piece, and how that might reflect on the relationship of R+L, and what it means for Jon as their offspring?

I'm starting to get my mythologies mixed up, lol, but I think there is a mythology about the Sun chasing the Moon. I know in Norse mythology that both are chased by wolves.

Well, if I'm correct about the sun and two moons representing polygamy, that would almost definitely apply to Rhaegar + Elia & Lyanna. And if so, I did notice one potential parallel between the likely poly-marriage of R+E&L and the one we know of for sure, Aegon + Visenya & Rhaenys.

With A+V&R, the A+V line only extended one generation. Maegor the Cruel was their only child and was probably sterile. But A+R produced the line of Targaryens that we still have today. In fact, I've seen it smartly suggested that this was the reason Rhaegar named his oldest girl Rhaenys instead of Visenya.

Now, with R+E&L, the offspring of R+E were both murdered well before they had a chance to reproduce. But with R+L, there is still a chance for "a thousand thousand dragons" to be born. Jon just has to get busy. ;)

Actually, one admittedly tenuous point in favor of this idea occurred to me a while back. There are a few people on the forums who favor the interpretation that the THotD = one person with three heads. I suggested in a different thread that these three "heads" could be represented by the faces of the seven-faced god of the Faith. After all, there are three male and female aspects a piece, and the genderless Stranger.

So, Maiden, Mother, Crone and; Smith, Warrior, Father. Perhaps Jon needs to fulfill these three rolls. I'm not sure how solid the idea is, but it seems like something GRRM might do. Maybe. :)

J.S. I like your analysis of the moonsinger's temple. But instead of the notion of Sansa and Arya supporting Jon, couldn't it stand for them supporting Bran instead? Bran's stay in the cave was marked by the reoccurrence of the crescent moon, wasn't it?

Perhaps, yes. Bran is also a second son, after all.

Brilliant! Mindblown :bowdown: So the first AA was a Targ who drove his sword through an Andal, then a Rhoynar, then finally through his Stark wife.

Thanks, but I must say that I was attempting to convey that the story of AA, NN & LB was an allegory for R+L=J. More or less anyway. :)

Jay Stargaryen.

Really wonderful thread.

Have you considered moonstones also being important. Below are the characters who wear moonstones.

Sansa wears moonstones given to her by Joffrey.

Lysa Tully wears moonstones

Lord Sunglass wore moonstones

Sweets wore moonstones

Marillion was given moonstones by Lysa Tully

Harlows heir has moonstones in his pommel.

What do all these characters have in common? sacrifice.

Sansa is a living sacrifice being held by the Lannisters to keep Jaime alive while he is captive.

Lysa Tully wears saffires and moonstones. The saffires are her secret about poisoning her husband but she is also a sacrifice that Little finger is using to screen his moves in the game of thrones.

Lord Sunglass is a sacrifice via Melisandre for Stannis

Marillion another sacrifice used by LF to hide his killing of Lysa

Harlow's heir is used by Euron Greayjoy..he gives him some honor which undermines his being alive later to be the Readers heir.

I am wondering if Sansa's moonstone necklace might be more than just the Lannisters using her ..but perhaps she is a sacrifice in your theory of two sisters and Jon

Sorry I forgot Sweets tells Tyrion and Penny that if their master dies, the favorites will be killed so they can serve the Master in the afterlife and she is his favorite..so she would be the first sacrifice.

I plan on giving some thought to the moonstones, yes. I like the idea of sacrifice as it fits thematically with NN and LB for sure.