Mark Gatiss Cast

[protar]

Why are people so hell-bent on the Kingsmoot being in Season 4 or being axed? Logically, it makes sense to have it in Season 5. Besides, we're already going to have plenty of "big" story arcs coming this season; and I'm very interested to see where Asha's story goes.

Why does it logically make sense for the Kingsmoot to be in S5? Logically it makes sense for it to be in S4, which the entire forum pretty much unanimously agreed on prior to the season finale. The KM takes place chronologically in the second half of SOS so because of that it makes sense to put it in S4. More importantly from an adaptational perspective S5 is going to be made of the two densest and slow paced books in the series, and these books have a large expansion of new characters and subplots, most notably the Greyjoys and the Dornish. By contrast S4 has plotlines removed (Robb) or merged with others (Jaime, Sam, Stannis) so it's logical to shift some of the load from S5 to S4.

Now moving both the Dornish and the Greyjoys to S4 would probably end up bloating that season. So it may be that they've simply decided to move the Dornish plot line to S4 instead of the Greyjoys. That still doesn't make as much sense as it requires creating at least some filler material to tide the Greyjoys over anyway, whereas the Dornish transition very smoothly from Oberyn (and possibly Arianne) in S4 and then Dorne itself in S5.

And even if the KM is in S5, it seems unlikely to me that Asha would be present. For that to happen her S4 arc would have to be complete and utter filler, which I sincerely hope doesn't happen. I really don't want to waste half an hour of Asha looking for Theon and then deciding to go home.

Imo Season 4 will have Asha looking for Theon, whilst Euron is and his brother(s) are built up off screen a la Mance or Stannis. Asha will be captured by Stannis and participate in the Battle at the Wall. In S5 she'll be sent to Winterfell with Mance and help Theon rescue Jeyne hopefully about a third of the way into the season.

[Rhoynar]

Here he looks like the Randyll Tarly I imagined.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5ksivSHO91qkgkowo1_500.jpg

[Arkash]

I'm ready to bet the Kingsmoot will be hinted this season... as I already said, I'm quite sure the Iron Island storyline this season will turn out like that :

- Introduction of the Damphair via Balon.

- Balon's death.

- Silence spotted on the horizon.

- Euron crowning himself.

- Aeron calling the Kingsmoot to contest this, since Euron is a godless man.

Then, in season 5 we can have the return of Asha(Yara) after her storyline in S4 is completed and have the Kingsmoot around 5x03.

[protar]

I'm ready to bet the Kingsmoot will be hinted this season... as I already said, I'm quite sure the Iron Island storyline this season will turn out like that :

- Introduction of the Damphair via Balon.

- Balon's death.

- Silence spotted on the horizon.

- Euron crowning himself.

- Aeron calling the Kingsmoot to contest this, since Euron is a godless man.

Then, in season 5 we can have the return of Asha(Yara) after her storyline in S4 is completed and have the Kingsmoot around 5x03.

But again, what storyline can Asha have in S4 that allows her to return to the Iron Isles in S5? The only possibility I can see is a complete filler arc which never has any impact on the future plot. Even Qarth in S2 and Theon in S3 lead somewhere. Dany and Theon were in different places at the end of the story than they were at the start. Unless there's some unprecedentedly sloppy writing coming up in S4 I don't Asha will be present at the Kingsmoot if it's still in.

[Arkash]

Asha's story can lead to Wex...

From the moment she said she would be sailing to the Dreadfort, I had "Wex" in mind ! I can see one of her crewmembers getting an expanded role (perhaps her first mate) and being the one spotting Rickon and Osha before ending up, dunno how, at White Harbor, warning Wyman Manderly.

Meanwhile, if this "Wex" is separated from the rest of the crew, Asha could end up playing a part in the Theon's storyline... maybe even being the one preventing, somehow, Ramsay to get his hand on Rickon while tracking him down with Reek. Thus maybe leading to the Wex thing.

Something could happen there : Ramsay in his anger of losing track of Rickon could turn up on Asha who would then fly away back to the Iron Islands, motivated maybe even by the news of her father's death.

Anyway, I feel something around those lines could work well.

[PatrickStormborn]

Wex is not necessary. All Manderly needs is someone who sees two travellers with a direwolf. That does not need to be Asha. In fact, viewers won't even need to know the source. All they need to know is that Manderly has received word that Rickon and Bran were seen after the sack of Winterfell.

Not really. If the Kingsmoot is at the end of season 4 or at the beginning of season 5 that gives them a lot of episodes if they keep her involved to play out her trying to find Theon.

Say the Kingsmoot is in Episode 9 or 10. They could have her looking for Theon for 5-6 episodes, then she gets word that Aeron is calling a Kingsmoot and, having no idea where Theon is, decides to sail home to declare what she believes is rightfully hers.

It's also worth noting in the books she does leave Pyke to go look for Theon and returns shortly after. It just wasn't as big of a deal as they're making it out to be in the show (presumably to make the audience care about the Greyjoys/Yara).

It's possible, but I very much doubt it will happen. And I find it extremely unlikely that the Kingsmoot - if we get it in season 4 - will be in the last two episodes. Everything currently suggests that episode 9 will be devoted to the Battle at the Wall, and episode 8 will probably be the Oberyn/Gregor duel (D&D have said that the last three episodes feature a lot of big scenes).

If the Kingsmoot is in this season, I'd guess it would most likely take place in episode 6 or 7, where not a lot will be happening. But if it's happening then, why send Yara on her quest to rescue Theon, and then have her backtrack quite early? And why not kill Balon last season?

Why are people so hell-bent on the Kingsmoot being in Season 4 or being axed? Logically, it makes sense to have it in Season 5. Besides, we're already going to have plenty of "big" story arcs coming this season; and I'm very interested to see where Asha's story goes.

Chronologically, the Kingsmoot takes place at the same time as the events after the Red Wedding, so it makes sense to include it in season 4. There is already way too much AFfC and ADwD material next season, but not a lot of ASoS material for this season. So logically it makes sense to have it in season 4.

[go joff go]

Why does it logically make sense for the Kingsmoot to be in S5? Logically it makes sense for it to be in S4, which the entire forum pretty much unanimously agreed on prior to the season finale. The KM takes place chronologically in the second half of SOS so because of that it makes sense to put it in S4. More importantly from an adaptational perspective S5 is going to be made of the two densest and slow paced books in the series, and these books have a large expansion of new characters and subplots, most notably the Greyjoys and the Dornish. By contrast S4 has plotlines removed (Robb) or merged with others (Jaime, Sam, Stannis) so it's logical to shift some of the load from S5 to S4.

Now moving both the Dornish and the Greyjoys to S4 would probably end up bloating that season. So it may be that they've simply decided to move the Dornish plot line to S4 instead of the Greyjoys. That still doesn't make as much sense as it requires creating at least some filler material to tide the Greyjoys over anyway, whereas the Dornish transition very smoothly from Oberyn (and possibly Arianne) in S4 and then Dorne itself in S5.

And even if the KM is in S5, it seems unlikely to me that Asha would be present. For that to happen her S4 arc would have to be complete and utter filler, which I sincerely hope doesn't happen. I really don't want to waste half an hour of Asha looking for Theon and then deciding to go home.

Imo Season 4 will have Asha looking for Theon, whilst Euron is and his brother(s) are built up off screen a la Mance or Stannis. Asha will be captured by Stannis and participate in the Battle at the Wall. In S5 she'll be sent to Winterfell with Mance and help Theon rescue Jeyne hopefully about a third of the way into the season.

Yeah but her book arc is pretty much filler anyway. There is nothing about Moat Caitlin that needs to be on the show. So replacing one type of filler with another one where she is actually engaged in the story m akes sense.

[protar]

Asha's story can lead to Wex...

From the moment she said she would be sailing to the Dreadfort, I had "Wex" in mind ! I can see one of her crewmembers getting an expanded role (perhaps her first mate) and being the one spotting Rickon and Osha before ending up, dunno how, at White Harbor, warning Wyman Manderly.

Meanwhile, if this "Wex" is separated from the rest of the crew, Asha could end up playing a part in the Theon's storyline... maybe even being the one preventing, somehow, Ramsay to get his hand on Rickon while tracking him down with Reek. Thus maybe leading to the Wex thing.

Something could happen there : Ramsay in his anger of losing track of Rickon could turn up on Asha who would then fly away back to the Iron Islands, motivated maybe even by the news of her father's death.

Anyway, I feel something around those lines could work well.

It still seems very fillerish to me as it doesn't achieve anything that can't be covered in 5 seconds. Wex's role in the Davos plot is ultimately very small and very easily cut. It seems incredibly odd that given their propensity for cutting material that D+D would create a whole subplot for such a small plot point.

Also it would involve Asha just randomly deciding to abandon Theon and go back to the Iron Isles. The main reason I'm not too upset about the KM being potentially cut is that cutting it would in fact save time and money for other plots and the Greyjoy's role in the later books/seasons can be fulfilled without it. If they created new subplots for Asha and possibly Euron/Victarion/Aeron as well it would defeat the entire point.

[protar]

Yeah but her book arc is pretty much filler anyway. There is nothing about Moat Caitlin that needs to be on the show. So replacing one type of filler with another one where she is actually engaged in the story makes sense.

Moat Cailin? Asha is never at Moat Cailin. She's at Deepwood Motte which allows her to be captured by Stannis, giving us an eye into his army as he marches on Winterfell. The Battle of Deepwood Motte can indeed be cut, which is why it makes most sense to use Asha's mission to join her up with Stannis early.

If she has some filler arc chasing Theon she will not in fact be "engaged with the story" because inevitably nothing will come of it.

[PatrickStormborn]

Also it would involve Asha just randomly deciding to abandon Theon and go back to the Iron Isles. The main reason I'm not too upset about the KM being potentially cut is that cutting it would in fact save time and money for other plots and the Greyjoy's role in the later books/seasons can be fulfilled without it. If they created new subplots for Asha and possibly Euron/Victarion/Aeron as well it would defeat the entire point.

Well actually, without the Kingsmoot there's very little need to keep Theon around in the story, which makes his season 3 plot even more pointless. His role in the story is so that Asha can contest the Kingsmoot and rule through him; without the Kingsmoot, he's just not necessary.

I know some readers have theories about his potential role in TWoW regarding Bran, but if he is truly sacrificed to bring Jon back it would be both a deus-ex-machina moment and also make the Kingsmoot pointless.

[Pinkie Baelish]

The KM does occur chronologically during season 4, but it would be OK if they altered the timeline of events so that it occurs in season 5. You can't introduce a game-changer like Euron and his dragon horn and have him do nothing of importance for one and a half seasons. The show has repeatedly stated that they'll only introduce characters when they become important(The Reeds, Edmure and Blackfish) so why would they introduce Euron in season 4 and have him do nothing after the KM? It would be far more effective if they start with a clean slate in season 5, and introduce Euron as a new major antagonist, to make up for the void left by Tywin and Joffrey. If they have the KM early in season 5, with Euron sending Vic to Meereen in episode 5 or 6, that should wrap up a neat little arc with Victarion(or Euron, should the two be merged) arriving at the Battle of Slaver's Bay in preferably episode 9(if this does happen).

NOTE: I would prefer having the KM happen late in season 4, but I don't think it would matter too much if it happens in season 5. Introducing the ironborn in s4 does lighten their workload for s5.

[protar]

Well actually, without the Kingsmoot there's very little need to keep Theon around in the story, which makes his season 3 plot even more pointless. His role in the story is so that Asha can contest the Kingsmoot and rule through him; without the Kingsmoot, he's just not necessary.

I know some readers have theories about his potential role in TWoW regarding Bran, but if he is truly sacrificed to bring Jon back it would be both a deus-ex-machina moment and also make the Kingsmoot pointless.

As you don't have a personal correspondence with Mr.Martin that I'm aware of I don't think we can say that's guaranteed at all. In fact I would say that the foreshadowing of that happening is so blatantly obvious that it would be rather trite if it did happen.

And even if it does happen you don't actually need the KM. The general story of Torgon the Latecomer can still be set up. Perhaps when looking for Theon early S3 she'll hear of Balon's death and mention the story? Or perhaps when the time comes Theon in the show will claim the Seastone Chair without a KM. Afterall, even with a KM Theon still needs to prove himself to the Ironborn and get elected, so proving himself in a KM vs. proving himself in general isn't much different.

[PatrickStormborn]

As you don't have a personal correspondence with Mr.Martin that I'm aware of I don't think we can say that's guaranteed at all. In fact I would say that the foreshadowing of that happening is so blatantly obvious that it would be rather trite if it did happen.

And even if it does happen you don't actually need the KM. The general story of Torgon the Latecomer can still be set up. Perhaps when looking for Theon early S3 she'll hear of Balon's death and mention the story? Or perhaps when the time comes Theon in the show will claim the Seastone Chair without a KM. Afterall, even with a KM Theon still needs to prove himself to the Ironborn and get elected, so proving himself in a KM vs. proving himself in general isn't much different.

You're right, the foreshadowing is obvious, but so is the foreshadowing for a second dance of the dragons...

“They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died.”

But we know that a second dance of the dragons is going to happen, so does the foreshadowng make the event "trite"?

Anyway, my point was that, without the Kingsmoot, there's less reason for Theon to have been kept around in season 3, because he is the only character in the novels that can reject the outcome of the Kingsmoot. If they're not bothering with the Kingsmoot, Theon's character is less important. It's not about Theon ending up as King; it's about the Kingsmoot being contested and the Ironborn revolting against Euron, which can only happen if Theon is revealed to be alive.

But anyway, I just don't understand why the Kingsmoot should be replaced with what will most likely be - based on previous examples - badly written filler.

[protar]

You're right, the foreshadowing is obvious, but so is the foreshadowing for a second dance of the dragons...

“They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died.”

But we know that a second dance of the dragons is going to happen, so does the foreshadowng make the event "trite"?

It depends on how it's written. The thing is, Theon is imo so utterly unsuited to ruling the Iron Isles that even if there was a second KM who on earth would vote for him? I have a hard time seeing a non-contrived way in which Theon's return could actually cause any dissent within the Ironborn. Therefore I think that the story of Torgon is a fairly transparent red herring.

Anyway, my point was that, without the Kingsmoot, there's less reason for Theon to have been kept around in season 3, because he is the only character in the novels that can reject the outcome of the Kingsmoot. If they're not bothering with the Kingsmoot, Theon's character is less important. It's not about Theon ending up as King; it's about the Kingsmoot being contested and the Ironborn revolting against Euron, which can only happen if Theon is revealed to be alive.

Again, you're back to assuming plot points that might or might not happen. Theon's importance in the later books is yet to be determined and does not necessarily have anything to do with the Iron Isles. Especially as Theon's entire arc in ADWD (and in S3 too I guess) was about accepting his Starkness.

But anyway, I just don't understand why the Kingsmoot should be replaced with what will most likely be - based on previous examples - badly written filler.

Well, it's not what I'd like but it seems like it's what will be happening based on Asha's scene in the finale. Hopefully though they can avoid a massive filler subplot. Providing they don't add loads of new material, getting rid of the KM would actually be a fairly logical move because it condenses material rather than adding to it: It's a fairly unpopular section of the books, so D+D might have had that in mind if they have cut the KM; Having the KM in S4 would probably have meant Euron would have to be absent again for S5, whereas introducing him in S5 would allow for a smoother introduction (though this could also work with the KM moved forwards to S5.); And finally D+D have said that the story is not going to do much more expanding in terms of locations and characters so doing away with isolated plotlines and immediately transplanting the Greyjoys into other plots (namely Dany's and Stannis') fits in with that.

[bobbybuilderton]

I'd like to point out that since she doesn't win, Asha doesn't even really need to be there. Balon is still alive in the show universe, and he could serve as a foot in the door for that storyline. Balon gets us the intro to Aeron, and Aeron in turns gets us the intro to the other two.

If I think that is a good reason for sending her after Theon is another story altogether.

What could happen is she finds out about Balon's death, realizes that makes her ruler, tries to send for more men (the ones Balon might have sent if he gave two shits about Theon), but instead her uncle replies, denying them. She also gets word that Aeron is calling for a kingsmoot to contest Euron's claim. So she decides to go back and make her claim. That way her ultimate goal is still to get Theon, and by the time she fails at the kingsmoot, Ramsay has moved to Winterfell and so she goes through Deepwood Motte to get there, as it's their lands and is the safer route. So her s4 story ends perhaps with her meeting up with Aeron and letting him know she means to make a claim, and him reacting. Can't say if non-readers would perceive that as filler for season 4, though. I'd guess to someone who hasn't read the books, that's progression and more than just spinning wheels.

[PatrickStormborn]

It depends on how it's written. The thing is, Theon is imo so utterly unsuited to ruling the Iron Isles that even if there was a second KM who on earth would vote for him? I have a hard time seeing a non-contrived way in which Theon's return could actually cause any dissent within the Ironborn. Therefore I think that the story of Torgon is a fairly transparent red herring.

Torgon, as far as I'm aware, did not call another Kingsmoot. He declared the Kingsmoot unlawful and revolted against the King of the Iron Islands.

Well, it's not what I'd like but it seems like it's what will be happening based on Asha's scene in the finale. Hopefully though they can avoid a massive filler subplot. Providing they don't add loads of new material, getting rid of the KM would actually be a fairly logical move because it condenses material rather than adding to it: It's a fairly unpopular section of the books, so D+D might have had that in mind if they have cut the KM; Having the KM in S4 would probably have meant Euron would have to be absent again for S5, whereas introducing him in S5 would allow for a smoother introduction (though this could also work with the KM moved forwards to S5.); And finally D+D have said that the story is not going to do much more expanding in terms of locations and characters so doing away with isolated plotlines and immediately transplanting the Greyjoys into other plots (namely Dany's and Stannis') fits in with that.

If we take the Game of Thrones book Bryan Cogman worked on as evidence, Euron and Victarion are probably going to be merged anyway.

If they had gotten the Kingsmoot right, it would feel like a somewhat smooth transition: Balon's death leads to Euron seizing the Seastone Chair, Aeron calls a Kingsmoot, Euron wins, and Victarion is sent to Dany (if Euron and Victarion were merged, Euron's victory could then directly lead to him travelling to Dany).

But the big problem is how much material is left to cover in season 5. Why delay even more material when season 4 is actually lacking material?

[go joff go]

HAs anyone mentioned Jinglebell as a possibility. He is almost certainly not with KL crew or Dany crew and even the wall seems unlikely to be done shooting anything that would need him. That leaves Stannis crew, Greyjoy crew and Bran crew. Cogman left opened the possibility that we still might see jinglebell.

[go joff go]

Torgon, as far as I'm aware, did not call another Kingsmoot. He declared the Kingsmoot unlawful and revolted against the King of the Iron Islands.

If we take the Game of Thrones book Bryan Cogman worked on as evidence, Euron and Victarion are probably going to be merged anyway.

If they had gotten the Kingsmoot right, it would feel like a somewhat smooth transition: Balon's death leads to Euron seizing the Seastone Chair, Aeron calls a Kingsmoot, Euron wins, and Victarion is sent to Dany (if Euron and Victarion were merged, Euron's victory could then directly lead to him travelling to Dany).

But the big problem is how much material is left to cover in season 5. Why delay even more material when season 4 is actually lacking material?

Either way you wouldn't have either enough material for season4 or season 5 so its damned if you do damned if you don't. Regardless of who gets cut they are going to have to space the greyjoy storline differently from the book to make it cover a span of time. Even though I don't want them to do it merging Victariona nd Euron does make a modicum of sense from the viewpoint that it takes two characters who don't have enough material to form separate arcs to create one character that does.

[protar]

Torgon, as far as I'm aware, did not call another Kingsmoot. He declared the Kingsmoot unlawful and revolted against the King of the Iron Islands.

Did he? Well in any case it's the same problem. Moon Boy could declare the KM unlawful. It doesn't mean anyone would listen to him. Theon is in no position to get any support from anybody. Theoretically Asha could use Theon to declare the KM unlawful and then start her own rebellion, but in that case she could easily just start a rebellion without any declarations of unlawfulness.

If we take the Game of Thrones book Bryan Cogman worked on as evidence, Euron and Victarion are probably going to be merged anyway.

I haven't read it, but if you're referring to any family trees I don't think it's a guarantee. IIRC Blackfish wasn't in the family trees prior to being cast. However I can see Victarion being merged depending on how TWOW goes down. There are theories I'm sure you've heard that Euron is on Vic's fleet disguised as Moqorro or the Dusky Woman. If that is the case D+D may do away with any duplicity and just have Euron go to Meereen himself. Meanwhile Aeron can stay at home.

If they had gotten the Kingsmoot right, it would feel like a somewhat smooth transition: Balon's death leads to Euron seizing the Seastone Chair, Aeron calls a Kingsmoot, Euron wins, and Victarion is sent to Dany (if Euron and Victarion were merged, Euron's victory could then directly lead to him travelling to Dany).

But the big problem is how much material is left to cover in season 5. Why delay even more material when season 4 is actually lacking material?

That is what I would have preferred but it just seems very unlikely to happen like that any more imo.

[Arkash]

Balon is still alive in the show universe, and he could serve as a foot in the door for that storyline. Balon gets us the intro to Aeron, and Aeron in turns gets us the intro to the other two.

What I've been thinking all along.

I can really see them writing a scene with Aeron and Balon at the beginning of the season 4 : a dialogue scene about the Iron Island religion, thus explaining the duality between Storm God and Drowned God (which would be a perfect window to introduce who the Damphair is), maybe finishing this scene with Balon dying and Aeron, panicked spotting the Silence on the horizon.

My main interrogation, if they do so, would be : "will they cast Euron for season 4 ?". It can be an interesting arc to expand on 3/4 episodes no more : showing Aeron distrusts, even hate Euron, Euron crowning himself, Aeron gathering his faithful followers and calling for a Kingsmoot. It would introduce both Aeron and Euron and lay ground and excitation for the Kingsmoot in season 5.KM could open the season with a nice blast (I always loved this scene, even if I'm in the minority here), and developping a S5 arc with the Kingsmoot, the first victories of Euron (Shield Island), thus proving Euron is a badass and is to be feared and ending S5 with Victarion sailing away to Slaver's Bay.