A different discussion about Catelyn

[The Piece Maker]

1. I thought it was "nasty" when she told him that "it should have been you ". Cat's feelings about Jon were no secret. That would be hurtful to a child. Jon knew that Cat disliked him. . She could have kept those feeling to herself. She could have ignored him, it would have been kinder.

2. I agree. She has no other choice if she wants a comfortable family life.

3. I agree. By reject I only meant that she didn't love him as one of her own, she would have had to have been a saint.

4. I agree. Her choice made for a happy family life. I never said Jon was sulking about Cat or her feelings toward him. I think that he accepted them.

I think that we mostly agree. My point was that she placed all of her anger/hurt on Jon, an innocent child, when it should have been Ned that received the brunt of it .She needed to lash out at someone. It's a shame that she took it out on Jon. She did the best that she could under the circumstances.

[Tywin Manderly]

Eddard and Jon both are Lucky that Catelyn was the Lady of Winterfell and Cersei Lannister.......

[Pikachu101]

Eddard and Jon both are Lucky that Catelyn was the Lady of Winterfell and Cersei Lannister.......

:agree:

Tbh I don't think any character would show more than civil decency towards Jon, and that includes the Dornish.

[Newstar]

Tbh I don't think any character would show more than civil decency towards Jon, and that includes the Dornish.

From what we can tell, Cat couldn't even muster "civil decency"--unless you set the bar for civil decency as low as "no murder attempts, no open verbal abuse and no physical abuse," which is setting it so low as to strip it of all meaning altogether--and I don't know why we're pretending that she did. We don't know the full scope of how Cat treated Jon, except for GRRM's assurances that it didn't rise to the level of "It should have been you"-type verbal abuse and was more in the nature of distancing herself from Jon and making sure the social distinctions were always preserved, but there are hints that Cat made it her mission to ensure that Jon never believed for one moment that he belonged in the Stark family ("Jon knew that he had never truly been one of them. Catelyn Stark had seen to that"). Even Ned refers to her call to pack Jon south to face the stigma bastards face at court "damnably cruel," words Ned doesn't use lightly. As for Catelyn never being "nasty" to Jon because she wasn't openly insulting him or saying openly cruel things to him like "It should have been you," if you don't know how "nasty," how cruel and how damaging a low-level campaign of coldness and passive-aggressive gestures aimed at isolating you and cutting you down can be...well, then, I envy you, because I've been on the receiving end of such things and I can tell you "nasty" doesn't even begin to cover it.

...but this is a thread about the ways in which Catelyn is awesome, and her treatment of Jon is decidedly not awesome no matter how you slice it, and abusive depending on whom you ask, so going back to the topic and the OP, which raised some excellent points:

how many of the high nobles in the series have shown similar consideration for the smallfolk serving them? It's a very short list.

Indeed.

2)On the way to the Eyrie, when some people in her party were killed in the fight against clansmen, she wanted to make sure they got a proper burial. The circumstances didn't allow it so in the end her companions convinced her to leave them unburied, but she was pretty distraught over it.

I thought this was nice, but it was interesting moment of Catelyn, normally a pragmatic sort of woman who can be hardheaded when it's called for, hating the idea of leaving them without a proper burial, even when there were considerable risks associated with doing so. Even the decent, kindhearted Ser Rodrik knows better than to waste time burying them.

3)Despite a popular misconception, Catelyn treated Mya Stone nicely and felt genuine sympathy for her when Mya told her about her lover being a scion of major noble House. She thought Mya reminded her of Sansa.

Agreed.

4) Brienne

I always thought Catelyn and Brienne's relationship was very touching and did show off Catelyn's kindness to best advantage.

5)When she got news about Bran and Rickon's deaths, she kept it secret (apart from telling Brienne) to make sure Edmure and the rest of the people could have their celebration of their victory without being burdened by this awful news.

I've noticed that like many people struggling with depression and grief, as she is after Ned's death, Cat's painfully self-conscious about what a burden her mood can be to others. Even up to the Red Wedding, she doesn't want to join in the bedding festivities because she's afraid of ruining their fun.

6)Interactions with Jeyne Westerling - Catelyn had a good reason to be angry at Jeyne, but when Jeyne came to her for advice, she treated her very well, gave her the best advice she could and was quite kind and supportive.

Agreed. She could have unloaded on Jeyne, and would have been justified in doing so, but she tried her best under the circumstances to be kind to her.

[Nerolunar]

Thank you for this thread, it's badly needed.

:agree:

[Toxspecific]

I don't know what Catelyn haters argue make Catelyn stupid, or evil. I don't really enter arguments about her at all. But I'll have a little go. These two things seem to be their basic accusation against her; 1. that she made very dumb mistakes and her actions lead to her son's downfall and 2. that she was herself a mean, cruel person at heart.

At first glance I just find both these accusations to be nonsensical and a direct product of rage that the Red Wedding ignited in fans. The 'she is cruel' basically comes from her being cold to Jon which I do not think is enough to declare her a cruel person at all (give me some more examples of cruelty) and about her being dumb, well from first impression she has the whole persona of an intelligent, reasonable lady. But I need examples.

I'm a noob in the whole Catelyn fans vs haters situation and want to see what both sides have as their main arguments.

[greywind93]

I always thought saving brienna was a bad move it made her leave without even trying to get the tyrells on her sons side. 1 person her side instead of a possible 8oooo

on her sons side {not guaranteed}

[jaimereborn]

Such a kind, generous, loving woman turned into a cold, vengeance-driven physchopath. Everything we loved about the old Cat now gone.

i think stoneheart is now on her own story arc. by the end of AFFC she is already showing some signs of humanity again (holding robb's crown, remembering brienne's vow etc) and we know so little about her that all we can tell about her really is that she is murdering freys left right and centre. based on this information alone, i can understand why people think she is essentially a zombified cold-hearted killer, but i think there is a lot more intricacy going on with this character and her long-term motives.

essentially, i actually think there is a lot more going on in her head that will be revealed - and a far more over-arching plan (perhaps involving many of the remaining northmen - TGNC anyone?). and while a stoneheart POV is looking very unlikely, i do think that there is much of the 'old' Cat left that will come out over time. god knows how GRRM is gonna end her arc, but i hope it's in some sort of way that brings her back to her old humanity - this could occur when being finally reunited with one of her children, learning bran/rickon are not dead, rallying behind jon snow when he inevitably becomes locked in the line for succession (either to the IT or as king of the north).

whatever the case, i think dismissing stoneheart as a cold hearted psychopath at this stage is based on very limited appearances and details of her new character, and i have a feeling there are going to be a lot more twists down the line, involving some major character evolution that hopefully brings Cat full circle in one way or another...

[Newstar]

The sad thing about Stoneheart is that she seems to have a lot more control and a lot more say than she ever did as Catelyn.

[Pikachu101]

The sad thing about Stoneheart is that she seems to have a lot more control and a lot more say than she ever did as Catelyn.

Didn't think of that, you just made me feel even more depressed over Cat :(

[Sansa_Stark]

I don't know what Catelyn haters argue make Catelyn stupid, or evil. I don't really enter arguments about her at all. But I'll have a little go. These two things seem to be their basic accusation against her; 1. that she made very dumb mistakes and her actions lead to her son's downfall and 2. that she was herself a mean, cruel person at heart.

At first glance I just find both these accusations to be nonsensical and a direct product of rage that the Red Wedding ignited in fans. The 'she is cruel' basically comes from her being cold to Jon which I do not think is enough to declare her a cruel person at all (give me some more examples of cruelty) and about her being dumb, well from first impression she has the whole persona of an intelligent, reasonable lady. But I need examples.

I'm a noob in the whole Catelyn fans vs haters situation and want to see what both sides have as their main arguments.

Let's see. Why do people hate cat?

1. Because she abused Jon Snow

2. Because she caused the RW by letting Jaime go

3. Because she caused the WOTFK by kidnapping Tyrion.

4. Kidnapping Tyrion was the most idiotic move in the series(save for letting Jaime go).

5. Because she was an incompetent adviser to Robb.

These are common reasonings. Most of them are false. Some of them are have arguable merits(Jon Snow abuse, some would call being distant and cold abuse).

[Newstar]

Didn't think of that, you just made me feel even more depressed over Cat :(

It's extremely depressing that Catelyn in life was a Cassandra whose voice was drowned by dumber, more powerful men (and women, like Lysa), and in death as Stoneheart is a commander with her own (mostly male) followers who march to her drum and accomplish her goals, and for whom her word is law.

[Fat Mac]

2. Because she caused the RW by letting Jaime go

:bs: :bs: :bs:

I had to put that 3 times because this literally makes no sense. Because as soon as she let Jaime go, Walder said "hmm, maybe it's time to kill all them because they let the Kingslayer go."

Robb was the main cause for the RW because he dishonored the Freys.

[Newstar]

Robb was the main cause for the RW because he dishonored the Freys.

Yup. Is this even an argument?

[Sansa_Stark]

Yup. Is this even an argument?

I've seen people argue otherwise.

[Fish Swim]

Yup. Is this even an argument?

It seems to be for the people who think nothing any other character ever did is anywhere near as bad as Catelyn's getting up in the morning. :ack:

[butterbumps!]

It would add something new to the discussion, which was my main idea when I made the thread, so if you want to post it here in this thread, go ahead.

Ok, will do. I need to revise it from an OP to a post.

I really like that you made this thread, btw. I always agree with your Cat views, of course.

Did anyone hate Cat at the beginning and only later start to love her?

Actually, I had the opposite experience. First reading, Cat was the only character I took to immediately. For some reason I was really cautious about getting too close to the characters at first, reserving judgment. A lot of the early characters are portrayed very sympathetically, to be sure-- the way we see Jon hero-worshipped by his sibling's POVs, for example. But in the case of Cat, I felt she really earned that sympathetic portrayal early on by being highly reasonable, yet upfront about her shortcomings (her second chapter wrt Jon). By the time of the Catnap and her following Eyrie chapter, I saw her as a major voice of reason in the series, if not the major one, a position reinforced by her performance in aCoK.

[Newstar]

By the time of the Catnap and her following Eyrie chapter, I saw her as a major voice of reason in the series, if not the major one, a position reinforced by her performance in aCoK.

Not to mention that as the series has progressed, the wisdom of her opinions and advice has been vindicated by developments that proved her right. It's one thing to read her pleas for peace and her dismay and dread at the King in the North bit in AGOT if that's the only book you've read, it's another thing entirely to read it having read ASOS or even ACOK.

[Pikachu101]

If Jon suffered that badly from having no mother figure then surely Ned's to blame. There's servants all over WF, couldn't he find anyone to act as a surrogate mother for Jon?

[Blueberry Stark]

If Jon suffered that badly from having no mother figure then surely Ned's to blame. There's servants all over WF, couldn't he find anyone to act as a surrogate mother for Jon?

The evil Catelyn probably wouldn't have allowed it (jk).

When I first realized that I loved Catelyn as a character was when the assassin comes to slit Bran's throat. When Catelyn grabs the dagger with her hands to stop him from killing her and then Bran, I wanted to jump up and down and cheer. That's when I realized what a tough AND maternal character she is. I HATE when people criticize her as a mother. IMO, Cat is a wonderful mother to her children. I've said it before, but what kind of heartless mother wouldn't have released Jaime if she thought that she could get her daughters back? I don't want to debate whether or not it was a WISE decision, but I feel that it was an understandable decision.

Wrt to her lack of maternal warmth to Jon, I don't hold it against her. He WASN'T her son! I hold Ned responsible for not telling her the truth about Jon, whatever it is. If she had known the details, L+R=J, or that Ned is the father, whatever the truth is, I think that Catelyn would have been kinder to Jon.