A different discussion about Catelyn

[Night'sQueen]

Are there any Cat fans who hate Stoneheart?

I can't stand the monster and I hate the fact that some fans think she's better and more badass than Catelyn :stillsick:

Stoneheart makes me even more depressed and infuriated over the RW. Catelyn would never have wanted to be this thing, this walking curse.

I really can't understand people who say they want her children to meet up with her. What a horror.

[Mark Antony]

So it's a discussion of Catelyn where criticism is allowed but we're not allowed to discuss any of the major decisions people say she botched. I think some of the treatment she gets from readers is harsh but this discussion is pointless if you are just going to say 'ignore all that stuff, this is the stuff where she acted kindly or generously so we are just going to focus on this'.

I think it's more of a all of that stuff has been discussed to death sort of a thing.

[The Don Dadda]

I think it's more of a all of that stuff has been discussed to death sort of a thing.

Because they are some of the most important parts of her plot line! If it was truly about lesser discussed aspects of her character then how come there are no negative points and everything listed by the OP is an event or passage that casts Catelyn in a positive light? This thread shouldn't be framed as unbiased discussion of Catelyn it should be framed as Catelyn love thread - I don't mind the love for Catelyn at all but be honest about what it is.

[Dire-Lion]

Another thing about Catelyn is that Ned trusts her with ruling the north and teaching Robb how to rule when he leaves. Therefore, Ned trusted in her ability to not only govern, but teach the heir how to rule, which is a pretty big sign of her political skills.

[Jon of the Dead]

Stoneheart makes me even more depressed and infuriated over the RW. Catelyn would never have wanted to be this thing, this walking curse.

I really can't understand people who say they want her children to meet up with her. What a horror.

The thing with Stoneheart, imo, is that I can see how it could work in theory. Cat never got to release all her anger and frustration at the people who wronged her when she was alive (like when she says that she'd like to wrap her hands around Cersei's neck, or hang Theon in a crow cage), but when she was resurrected she got all the power to take revenge.

But still there's something not quite right about Stoneheart's character and I think I know what it is: even after death, Cat still doesn't have a voice. And when I say voice, I mean a "public" voice because clearly we know how she felt and what she thought about everything around her. But still she was always in the background, as Robb made (most of) the decisions.

And now that she is Stoneheart and has her followers and has a position of power like Robb did, she is still in the background, a figure that is only vaguely mentioned, and now she can't even talk, pretty much. So yes, in a way it is a tragedy, but that's what I don't like about Stoneheart.

Well, that and her lame resurrection.

[butterbumps!]

Hahaha, so we're playing the cultural relativism card now, when all else fails. So I guess Tyrion wouldn't have been raping Sansa if he'd consummated the marriage on their wedding night, what with marital rape being a rather modern concept and all. Good to know.

Newstar, this is not a cultural relativism argument. For example, I am not saying something like "Beating kids was acceptable in this context, so we can excuse this character's actions." I am not normalizing behavior in relation to the context.

I am stating-- simply-- that the way the household is set up in this story, such that Jeyne, Fat Tom, Jory, and the whole crew are part of the "household" and sit at the same table during mealtimes, and that there isn't quite the notion of immediate/ blended family, which makes modern applications of "step parent" to Catelyn an inappropriate analogue.

For example, unlike most contemporary blended households, the Stark "household" contains a small army of servants and subjects whose kids are raised alongside the Starks. Cat has as much imperative to nurture Beth Cassel and Jeyne Poole as she does to Jon given the structure of this.

No one-- not least of which, Ned-- believes that Cat is any sort of parental figure or guardian to Jon. I would be with you on this if Martin adjusted the family structure for this the way he's "modernized" a number of other elements; that would change the imperative on this to make the determination that this was indeed neglect.

The structure of the Stark household reveals that there isn't any sort of neglect to be found. A small army of servants-- from Luwin, to Mikken to Rodrick-- plus Ned and his children, provide Jon with ample attention, affection and acceptance. A neglect argument really cannot be made here (that there is a small army of servants devoted to raising the children here is part of why a modern comparison in this case doesn't work).

[Minsc]

What problem, that some people take issue with a character because she, whatever her other positive qualities might be, mistreats an innocent child? Yeah, that's totally cray.

What is interesting is that male characters never get the same negative criticism for similar treatment of other innocent children. Seeing how Ned stays distant and cold from Theon and raises the boy with him believing Ned might execute him someday, Stannis doesn't seem to have any relationship at all with his daughter, Jaime has no connection with any of his children, etc. Yet, no one ever hates on these characters for "mistreating" an innocent child.

[Tywin Manderly]

This! :agree:

[Wet Wat Barleycorn]

I think posters here do not understand that Jon Snow was not like a stepson. He was a knife to her throat and her own children's throats.

All of Catelyn's authority and her children's entire futures stem from her unique relationship to Ned Stark. She is his wife. The only person who canperpetuate the Stark line. Her children will be special and powerful ONLY because she has this unique relationship with Ned.

A bastard doesn't necessarily threaten that. A bastard who lives with his mother, who Ned sends money to, well that's all good and fine. But a bastard raised in the castle alongside her own children, one who looks more like Ned than any of the sons she produced? She cannot allow anyone to see him as an equal to her children. Bec then he can usurp their place! What if he is charming and a better leader than RIckon? He will always be a decade his senior. When it comes time to choose the holdfast he will govern, will he get the most important one? Or will it pass to Jon, who is a more seasoned man and who everyone likes and is familiar with? What if, say, one son meets with an accident and is crippled? Won't people start to wonder why the able-bodied bastard with a proper nobleman's martial upbringing and skills is accorded less respect and power than the worthless cripple?

The problem for Catelyn is she can't challenge Ned. He's decided, and that's that. And if she pouts, all she will do is alienate the person from whom she and her children derive all their power. That is just stupid and self-destructive. But she CANNOT allow anyone to think of Ned's bastard as the same as her children. Every time anyone looks at Jon, they must see first his bastardy. That is how she ensures Bran, Rickon, Sans a and Arya (and any future babies) keep their inheritance. By making sure that no one ever forgets the difference between a trueborn Stark and a bastard one. Even if Jon Snow was raised with them, she must make sure no one ever sees him as one of them. Then it will be inconceivable for him to jump any one of them in the pecking order.

I think modern people are putting Brady Bunch values onto Catelyn here. That's crazy. Being able to accept and love children born before you met your spouse is wonderful, and it's great that the laws and norms of our society have changed so this is encouraged. But this is the age of primogeniture, of arranged marriage, where the luck of your birth is everything. Jon threatens that for Catelyn and all her children (except possibly Rob). The only reason she is anything is because she can produce legitimate heirs. If a Child of Ned's begotten of some woman so low her name can't be revealed is treated in a manner indistinguishable from her children, then she is nothing. And her children are no better than Jon Snow unless they prove themselves better. The girls never will, and Bran and Rickon are children next to Jon, so they will lose, too. And if Ned brings home another little bastard? Or a half-dozen? To be raised as equals to her own children?

Just, no. What she arguably should have done was smother Jon Snow in his crib. She chose type far, far kinder tack of allowing her husband to have the child raised as he wished, but never letting anyone forget that unlike Robb AND ANY MORE OF HER CHILDREN TO COME, Jon was not a Stark and could never be one.

That's not a reason to hate her, it's a reason to pity that a tender-hearted person was so twisted by the laws of her time that this was probably the best choice open to her if she wanted to preserve her own kids' future. And to be pissed at her husband for not confiding in her.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

What is interesting is that male characters never get the same negative criticism for similar treatment of other innocent children. Seeing how Ned stays distant and cold from Theon and raises the boy with him believing Ned might execute him someday, Stannis doesn't seem to have any relationship at all with his daughter, Jaime has no connection with any of his children, etc. Yet, no one ever hates on these characters for "mistreating" an innocent child.

I disagree with this opinion that people don't consider these examples to be flaws of these male characters, just minor in comparison to their other flaws. I think it's just a lot more common for people to discuss the major flaws of these characters, whereas the Jon-Cat relationship seems to be typically considered one of Cats major flaws. I also think it's an exaggeration to call it hate when people discuss the Jon-Cat relationship, or lack thereof.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

What is interesting is that male characters never get the same negative criticism for similar treatment of other innocent children. Seeing how Ned stays distant and cold from Theon and raises the boy with him believing Ned might execute him someday, Stannis doesn't seem to have any relationship at all with his daughter, Jaime has no connection with any of his children, etc. Yet, no one ever hates on these characters for "mistreating" an innocent child.

:agree: People often expect women who are mothers to be maternal to every child. They don't necessarily have to be.

[Dire-Lion]

Wet Wat Barleycorn, I agree with everything you say except for the stuff about Robb. Due to their closeness in age, if Jon wanted to he could be a challenge Robb's claim to Winterfell when they are older. While their difference in age would have been obivous when they were babies, now they would like the same age and if Jon had been a better leader....well he already looks like a Stark.

[The Drunkard]

Can we get away from the whole Jon issue please.

As this is a Cat appreciation thread I'd like to ask: what do you like the most about Catelyn?

She cared about her family more than anything else. I can't remember the quote (it's probably been posted) but she recognised the futility of fighting a losing war to avenge someone when there were living people to take care of. She also managed to care about family and be one of the most pragmatic characters, which I salute.

[chicky]

I think posters here do not understand that Jon Snow was not like a stepson. He was a knife to her throat and her own children's throats.

All of Catelyn's authority and her children's entire futures stem from her unique relationship to Ned Stark. She is his wife. The only person who canperpetuate the Stark line. Her children will be special and powerful ONLY because she has this unique relationship with Ned.

A bastard doesn't necessarily threaten that. A bastard who lives with his mother, who Ned sends money to, well that's all good and fine. But a bastard raised in the castle alongside her own children, one who looks more like Ned than any of the sons she produced? She cannot allow anyone to see him as an equal to her children. Bec then he can usurp their place! What if he is charming and a better leader than RIckon? He will always be a decade his senior. When it comes time to choose the holdfast he will govern, will he get the most important one? Or will it pass to Jon, who is a more seasoned man and who everyone likes and is familiar with? What if, say, one son meets with an accident and is crippled? Won't people start to wonder why the able-bodied bastard with a proper nobleman's martial upbringing and skills is accorded less respect and power than the worthless cripple?

The problem for Catelyn is she can't challenge Ned. He's decided, and that's that. And if she pouts, all she will do is alienate the person from whom she and her children derive all their power. That is just stupid and self-destructive. But she CANNOT allow anyone to think of Ned's bastard as the same as her children. Every time anyone looks at Jon, they must see first his bastardy. That is how she ensures Bran, Rickon, Sans a and Arya (and any future babies) keep their inheritance. By making sure that no one ever forgets the difference between a trueborn Stark and a bastard one. Even if Jon Snow was raised with them, she must make sure no one ever sees him as one of them. Then it will be inconceivable for him to jump any one of them in the pecking order.

I think modern people are putting Brady Bunch values onto Catelyn here. That's crazy. Being able to accept and love children born before you met your spouse is wonderful, and it's great that the laws and norms of our society have changed so this is encouraged. But this is the age of primogeniture, of arranged marriage, where the luck of your birth is everything. Jon threatens that for Catelyn and all her children (except possibly Rob). The only reason she is anything is because she can produce legitimate heirs. If a Child of Ned's begotten of some woman so low her name can't be revealed is treated in a manner indistinguishable from her children, then she is nothing. And her children are no better than Jon Snow unless they prove themselves better. The girls never will, and Bran and Rickon are children next to Jon, so they will lose, too. And if Ned brings home another little bastard? Or a half-dozen? To be raised as equals to her own children?

Just, no. What she arguably should have done was smother Jon Snow in his crib. She chose type far, far kinder tack of allowing her husband to have the child raised as he wished, but never letting anyone forget that unlike Robb AND ANY MORE OF HER CHILDREN TO COME, Jon was not a Stark and could never be one.

That's not a reason to hate her, it's a reason to pity that a tender-hearted person was so twisted by the laws of her time that this was probably the best choice open to her if she wanted to preserve her own kids' future. And to be pissed at her husband for not confiding in her.

*slow clap* Damn, son. You are spot on.

[A Game of Hodors]

It has been interesting to me that Catelyn is often singled out for hate, when she is living in a situation where casual rape and murder are common, people are being tortured to death regularly, but the worst people can say about her is that she is occasionally mean to her husband's illegitimate child. Sure, it's not nice. No-one thinks she is a saint. But she is a nicer person than virtually any other character in the books except possibly Sansa (who also gets singled out for a lot of hate).

Perhaps it is because she is almost relatable from a modern perspective, whereas the actions of the majority of characters are so hideous as to be virtually incomprehensible.

[Sansa_Stark]

*slow clap* Damn, son. You are spot on.

Except for part where baby killing was justified. That's Cersei level thinking there

[The Witch Queen of Angmar]

This is a great thread! I know Catelyn has made mistakes, but none that are past forgiving at all. the mistakes she makes are genuinely mistakes, unlike Cersei who makes mistakes cuz shes a psycho bitch.

[JacobTaylor]

I may be wrong, but I believe that Catelyn is the only "Lady" character in the series who actually lives under the same roof as her husbands bastard. I can only imagine that the way she acts towards him is considered normal for a woman of Westeros. Also the "it should've been you" remark clearly comes from a very distraught version of Catelyn as she and other characters state later that she was not herself when Bran first fell. Can you imagine Cersei (bad example) or any other Ladies in the show sheltering their husbands bastards and being completely okay with it, or not showing the slightest bit of loathing for them atleast during one point of their lives? I truly think that although a little cruel, Catelyn acted as any other woman in her position would because that essentially is just the way of westerosi culture. Aside from Dorne of course, that's a whole other story.

Catelyn was one of my favourite characters, and having her brought back has only increased my curiosity and intrigue for her as a character. I cannot wait to see what GRRM has planned for her has Lady Stoneheart, knowing GRRM he will not dissapoint us :)

[SeanF]

Cat's treatment of Jon is on her. It's not on Jon for having the temerity to be born, not on Ned for not cluing her in, and certainly not on Lyanna for birthing a child who had to be concealed as Ned's bastard, but her. Even if, hypothetically, Jon were Ashara's bastard as Cat suspected, would that make her lack of kindness any more justifiable or less cruel? It's not that she was incapable of "maternal warmth," but of basic decency, understanding, and sympathy of the type she was willing to show Mya, another bastard (once she gets over her initial distaste for Mya's bastard status), or most other human beings she comes across.

In fact, Cat's treatment of Jon is in fact all the more jarring and distasteful because she's capable of such kindness and warmth not only towards her own children, but towards most other people, even a girl who helped Robb ruin a strategically essential alliance, someone who, unlike Jon, has actually done something to wrong her. Cat's not some socially awkward person who comes off as cold and aloof towards others because she's not very well adjusted. She can be perfectly warm, kind, understanding, sympathetic, and accommodating towards all manner of people, even those who have actually personally done something to harm her, not just her own children. So her petty, callous and vindictive treatment of Jon, embodied by such things as passive-aggressively seating him as far away from her children as possible at feasts, snarling "It should have been you," and her eagerness to pack Jon off to a hard, cold, cruel life at the Wall rather than look at his face on a daily basis (Ned calls her urging him to take Jon south with him "damnably cruel"), is all the more baffling.

Going away to Court would (or to squire for another lord) would be typical for a noble 14 year old. It's Ned who's being obtuse, by calling Catelyn cruel.

I fully accept that Catelyn disliked Jon, but I think most women would feel the same way, in her position.

[Ludd]

What I find odd is that Catelyn is to all intents and purposes the "Cruel" Stepmother who like Cinderella's step mother and Mrs Reed in Jane Eyre, blatantly favours her own kids at the expense of those whom she is obliged to protect. No doubt these characters also had their good points, kind and generous etc, but hatred and fear of the rival child lead to destruction. Like dominant chimps and orangutangs, the female hates and kills foreign babies. It may be normal enough but it is still bloody nasty.

Other than in her treatment of Jon, Catelyn is still a relatively nice person, although not necessarily a wise one.

There are some disturbing aspects to her motherhood - Arya is mishandled, Rickon is neglected, Sansa allowed to grow up vain and silly. She was not a bad mother but I am not so sure she was especially good either.