Heresy 81

[LynnS]

I'm not in favor of Mel giving Jon the kiss of fire. It's too obvious. However, Mel is immune to the cold if that is what is required to go north. My question is about Mel and Orel's eagle and what happened there. Since Varamyr's prologue is about skinchanging; did we miss something about Mel? She recognized a skinchanger present in the eagle and up until now only wargs and skinchangers recognize each other. Did she enter the eagle in a manner akin to skinchanging?

When Beric is asked about being revived; he says that his mouth tastes burned and filled with ashes. It only appears that he is risen again, his wounds healed and mortal since he can be killed again When Mel remembers her experience; she describes the agony of it. So does Varamyr except that he escapes and goes mad for a time. My impression is that someone who is being overtaken by a skinchanger gives the appearance of madness as they fight off the intruder. I think that Mel was alive rather than dead when she was wed to fire and she is chained to the source in some way. Was she literally burned or did the fire enter her in the manner that she entered the eagle?

Is it possible for two minds to exist in one body? I think Euron, maddest of them all is the example and Maelor the Monstrous is said to have had two heads.

[Alaynsa Starne]

Hi guys! I'm new to this, and people have been talking about family secrets that Ned may or may not have known and I have no idea what that's about. Is there like a page or something that someone can direct me to? I'm really sorry that this is totally off topic.

[wolfmaid7]

I'm not in favor of Mel giving Jon the kiss of fire. It's too obvious. However, Mel is immune to the cold if that is what is required to go north. My question is about Mel and Orel's eagle and what happened there. Since Varamyr's prologue is about skinchanging; did we miss something about Mel? She recognized a skinchanger present in the eagle and up until now only wargs and skinchangers recognize each other. Did she enter the eagle in a manner akin to skinchanging?

When Beric is asked about being revived; he says that his mouth tastes burned and filled with ashes. It only appears that he is risen again, his wounds healed and mortal since he can be killed again When Mel remembers her experience; she describes the agony of it. So does Varamyr except that he escapes and goes mad for a time. My impression is that someone who is being overtaken by a skinchanger gives the appearance of madness as they fight off the intruder. I think that Mel was alive rather than dead when she was wed to fire and she is chained to the source in some way. Was she literally burned or did the fire enter her in the manner that she entered the eagle?

Is it possible for two minds to exist in one body? I think Euron, maddest of them all is the example and Maelor the Monstrous is said to have had two heads.

His last death had been by fire. I burned. At first, in his confusion, he thought some archer on the Wall had pierced him with a flaming arrow … but the fire had been inside him, consuming him. And the pain ….. Even that had not been so

agonizing as the fire in his guts, crackling along his wings, devouring him. When he tried to fly from it, his terror fanned the flames and made them burn hotter. One moment he had been soaring above the Wall, his eagle’s eyes marking the movements of the men below. Then the flames had turned his heart

into a blackened cinder and sent his spirit screaming back into his own skin, and for a little while he’d gone mad.

If we deconstruct and remove the individual aspect what happen with Mel and the Eagle can be characterized as some kind of Skinchanging,i thought about this with respect to "the cold" and what it does when it takes someone over and wights them ,that too kind of reminds me of skinchanging.

So maybe the elemental forces of fire and ice are the ultimate skinchangers,they both seem to need some type of an "casing" for what ever purpose.

I would think for two minds existing in the same body there would have to be some type of mutual symbiosis.Though i doubt it,there seems to be precedence for a dominant and subservient.

The Tok'ra and humans :dunno:

[Grey Words]

If we deconstruct and remove the individual aspect what happen with Mel and the Eagle can be characterized as some kind of Skinchanging,i thought about this with respect to "the cold" and what it does when it takes someone over and wights them ,that too kind of reminds me of skinchanging.

So maybe the elemental forces of fire and ice are the ultimate skinchangers,they both seem to need some type of an "casing" for what ever purpose.

I would think for two minds existing in the same body there would have to be some type of mutual symbiosis.Though i doubt it,there seems to be precedence for a dominant and subservient.

The Tok'ra and humans :dunno:

So you're suggesting that there are aspects of the elements fire and ice that exist as sentient beings or agents of R'hllor or the Great Other?

[wolfmaid7]

So you're suggesting that there are aspects of the elements fire and ice that exist as sentient beings or agents of R'hllor or the Great Other?

Not at all, I don't believe there is a Great Other or a R'hllor. I think it's natural elemental magik at work accessible to those sensitive enough to use it.

[addicted to snow]

I really think you need to get your thoughts together,you're not the author yet you claim "he is going to do X" Addicted many people have theories that they speculate about,but never have i come across anybody on this forum that states GRRM IS going to do X.The moment that starts happening it is a sure fire way to shut down a conversation it can't be subjected to scrutiny.You're saying you're not the author while basically saying you are.

To your second point: I assume you took Philosophy or some form of Critical Thinking class so you must know the difference between a fact and opinion. V6 recounting what he observed when he took over Orell's eagle is a fact. He's not putting emotions or any form of bias into that recall he is simply stating what happened.

His boast of being the greatest Skinchanger in the world is an opinion.Was there a panel of Skinchangers voting or something,was there some type of panel.How do you assess who is the greatest Skinchanger in the world?

Another fictional character had his same bravado...Voldermort who insisted he was the greatest Wizard because he did things Dumbledore never did. Harry corrected by saying Dumbledore could do it,but knew the wisdom in not doing it.

Look at V6 psychology he is a sociopath that gathered trophies and that made him feel a cut above everyone. Look at his child hood environment he was abandoned by his parents from a young age. Classic abandonment issues which usually develop in to Narcissistic personality disorders. Feeling invincible as if rules don't apply to you,feeling senses of entitlement. All this V6 has displayed is the signs of the classic sociopath,which is exactly what he was.He was greatest in the world,HE believed he was.

The above statements by you are so wrong i'm wondering if you're reading the same book. All these are opinions. In addition your second point is mis quoting the text. Haggon said " if you stay in the birds TOO LONG you begin to get aloof.Haggon said you don't wan't to bind shadow cats because they are violent and unpredictable hard to control,something he learnt later on.

So Haggon wasn't wrong and in the end when he was yelling at Haggon about how great he was he admitted " You were right old man". Like Socrates on his death bed V6 had to admit " i know now i knew nothing".

The closest that one eye/v6 is,is to Bran because Bran took over his pack.If Bran who identified one eye as a Warg decided to go into him.V6 is dead he is nothing more than an echo not able to affect anybody by making them ....more dark

End of this argument.... :grouphug:

We'll eventually learn who has more insight to offer & who has made the more intuitive post when the next book comes out… I can't wait!!!

[Grey Words]

Not at all, I don't believe there is a Great Other or a R'hllor. I think it's natural elemental magik at work accessible to those sensitive enough to use it.

Ah, thank you for the clarification. Very intriguing :idea: - have had some thoughts of my own regarding R'hllor and the Great Other as "boogie men" that are simply useful as political tools. Elemental magik available to sensitives, yes...and that in the R'hllor those sensitives are enslaved...hmmm

[Phillip Frye]

. . . The user name 'Addicted to snow' is not an alter ego of GRRM . . .

I could not agree more.

When I raised the question a few threads ago of who was going to be collecting the sons and sheep of Craster while all of the wildlings were up in the Frostfangs and later fleeing to the Wall if the Others were not up to the task, you posited that something like the Loyal Order of Antlered Men were afoot in the Haunted Forest (and are still there). It appears that you base this conjecture upon the Hescox drawings and Val's attire. Do you have anything else?

I remember that when you first joined Heresy, you were quick to go after anyone who put forth a theory that you did not consider to have support from the text. Do you have anything else from the books that supports hitherto unidentified antler dudes traipsing about in the Haunted Forest with the Army of the Damned?

[evita mgfs]

Generally speaking we try to avoid the Wiki of Ice and Fire. It can be handy but it is a fan-constructed document and not to be relied upon in debate. The Wikipedia proper tends to get used quite a lot when we're discussing external influences such as the Sidhe of the Mabinogion, but usually again as a handy reference. After all its GRRM's work of fiction which we're discussing.

As to the Greeks (seriously...) it all depends what people know. Greek mythology has been discussed in the past but basically it needs somebody who knows at least a little of what they're talking about. I tend to draw inferences from Celtic mythology because I'm reasonably familiar with it, but I'm less comfortable with Norse/Germanic mythology not because I don't believe its relevant but because I'm less :bowdown: :bowdown: familiar with it and so reliant on others to indentify the parallels. Same goes for the Greek stuff...

BLACK CROW: THANK YOU! I WILL BE YOUR GREEK PERSON since I taught the Iliad, Odyssey, Theogeny, Poetics, Antigone, Oedipus, Agammemnon, and other works by Greek tragedians that I cannot remember. I will try to keep up with the thread - I get terrible bouts of sucky-writing syndrome. That is what frustrates me. Plus, I get bogged down with too many ideas.

I have been working on several long writing projects that are heretical, and I believe you touched upon the blood and its relationship to the Starks, their direwolves, the weirwoods, Winterfell, and the crypts in your pre-face to the new thread. I am stream-lining sections to share with the group. I will break the works up in sections like Snowfyre Chorus did.

I also have my analysis of the violations of the laws of hospitality and guest right, which includes a close look at the posture of the stone statues and what it might mean. [but I think you heretics might be able to take my evidences and find a totally different angle for interpretation!]

All of my theories have their roots in AGoT, which I assert is Martin's most organized and most tightly constructed of the novels in the series: it is a blue print or outline of what is to come. Martin frames AGoT with the appearance of the mythical creatures- the author opens with the Others and the direwolves and closes with the birth of the three dragons.

BTW, I seldom look at profiles, but I wanted to see your threads and content. I happened to notice that you and I share a birthday! We also are not too far apart in years, although I am younger. :smug:

Thanks again!

[Black Crow]

I'm inclined to turn this question around and ask what would happen if a skin changer was given the kiss of fire? Is Mel immortal? One of the curious things about Varamyr's experiences was that Mel detected him as a skinchanger while present in Orel's eagle. Is that one of her talents? How does she send the fire into Orel burning Varamyr and making him insane; causing him to lose control of all his animals? He describes the agony of the fire within and so does she when she remembers the fire entering her. What Mel seemed to do was enter the eagle in the manner of a skinchanger; but since her essence is fire she killed the host and Varamyr was sent packing severely damaged. Mel isn't all smoke and mirrors, powders and glamors.

Interesting thought on how the eagle was shot down. If this was how it worked (and to be honest we've no hint of it in Mel's later POV) it does raise the supplementary question as to what would really happen if the popular scenario of Bran or anybody else trying to skinchange a dragon came about. Would one of the other die in in an fiery explosion of insanity?

[Black Crow]

I myself if Jon is dead,favor a ressurrection by the OG's. I see a problem with Mel raising Jon and it's more along to line of Mel's ideology and personality.

Now i do not take the show as canon but when Thoros raised Berric Mel looked suprise but what struck me most was her statement to him "you should not have this power".Needless to say it start me thinking along a particular line so now i refer to the book.

Mel's perception of what she called the Great Other is that he is the god of darkness and death.She told Jon that "these shadows in the snow is his doing".

She routinely calls Rhollor the god of Light and Life.From what we see of Rhollr and correct me if i'm wrong barring what happen to Berric and Cat seems more of a Transformation power VS a resurrection . In the ritual to possibly help Khal Drogo the tent had to figure one representative of Death/Cold and the other Life/heat.

The reason i bring this all up is that maybe in Mel's mind Thoros really should have this power because she sees it as some kind of abomination having to do with the Great Other.

I get the sense from Mel that the whole bringing someone back from the dead will not sit well because of the whole people that should be dead walking around equals the great Other.Healing someone with fire thus transforming them into an agent of fire i.e (Morroqo and Vic) might be something she would do.

Just speculating based on Mels ideology.

I have to disagree with this one. In the first place Thoros undertook the communion because it was a part of his faith - he just didn't anticipate it actually working. Secondly its also exactly what Master Benero was promising those who died in the service of R'hllor. "her [Dany as Azor Ahai] triumph over the darkness will bring a summer that will never end… death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…”

[evita mgfs]

AN: Here is the first part of a longer work that explores the “blood motif”!

The Blood Motif in George R.R. Martin’s A Game of Thrones, Book 1 of A Song of Ice and Fire:

How Martin Employs the Blood Motif as a Unifying Device that ConnectsThe Starks, their Direwolves, Winterfell, the Crypts,

and the Heart Tree

“Blood sprayed out across the snow, as red as summerwine” (15).

In A Game of Thrones, the first novel in George R. R. Martin’s series A Song of Ice and Fire, the author conscientiously crafts a strong literary foundation for the subsequent books to follow. Primary plots, subplots, histories, and characterizations that Martin secures in AGoT often foreshadow, parallel, mirror, insinuate, or symbolize what is yet to come.

Martin features House Stark, a much admired family that includes two parents, five true-born children and one bastard, and the Stark retainers. Within the grey stone walls of Winterfell, the community lives peacefully despite Old Nan’s scary stories about endless snows that drift and bury entire castles. The cold Winterfell crypts house the stone statues of the Stark lords and Kings of Winter who watch with blind eyes and listen to silent whispers, their stone direwolves curled at their stone feet.

The heart tree postures in the primeval godswood, a brooding expression carved on the bark of its face, sad eyes leaking red sap. Beneath the earth, the weirwood’s roots extend deep underground to kiss the grey foundations of Winterfell. The roots may cradle the deepest level of the WF crypts by embracing the side walls, growing up and around the total area of the crypts proper.

Beneath sepulchers are the human remains of deceased Starks and their families. Martin associates the faces of the past Starks carved in stone with the face carved in the bark of the weirwood trunk. Deftly, Martin insinuates that the spirits of the dead Starks dwell within the heart tree, which happens to wear a “long face”, a physical trait of Arya Stark and the bastard Jon Snow. Martin features the Stark family’s good-standing and import by assigning them POV chapters that outnumber the POV’s of other characters from old, distinguished houses in the Seven Kingdoms.

Blood is a unifying device that seamlessly joins elements of plot development and storytelling. Mastering the details of an epic series that covers five completed novels with two promised for some time in the future, Martin relies on literary techniques and devices to add texture to his prose narratives. Blood is the operative word in the recurring “blood motif”, and just as the weirwood tree is crowned with blood red leaves “like a thousand blood-stained hands”, so does Martin mark his prose with literary intent that he expertly paints into the fabric of his fantasy.

Blood symbology embraces a volume of traditional meanings, and Martin touches upon most of these as well as inventing some of his own: blood may represent the life force or the divine life force, magical powers, food or sustenance for supernatural beings, brotherhood, procreation, vengeance, passion, death, war, sacrifice, guilt, race, heritage, and genetics. The current Stark family, including the siblings and their direwolves, plus Winterfell, the crypts, and the heart tree, are touched by the enigmatic powers of blood early in AGoT and that he continues through the four novels that follow.

THE BLOOD OF THE FIRST MEN

“. . . the blood of the First Men still flowed in the veins of the Starks, and his own gods were the old ones, the nameless, faceless gods of the greenwood they shared with the vanished children of the forest”.

The spilling of blood accompanies Lord Eddard Stark’s first appearance in the novel A Game of Thrones as he assumes the roles of Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North, and an executioner, and in fulfillment of all these roles, he administers the King’s justice by wielding his Valyrian steel greatsword Ice to decapitate a deserter from the Night’s Watch. Aside from the bloody introduction, this heroic figure is also a father, a friend, and a husband.

Respected and admired in the North, Lord Eddard is the patriarch of a rich legacy, and he sets a good example for his children not only in his duties to the King, but he demonstrates his faith in the old gods by praying regularly beneath the heart tree in the godswood of Winterfell. Ned seeks forgiveness, wise counsel, and spiritual guidance from the old gods.

The blood of the First Men courses through the veins of Lord Eddard Stark and his five trueborn children, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon, all on his wife, the former Catelyn Tully. In addition, Lord Eddard acknowledges paternity for the bastard Jon Snow, although Jon’s true parents are a subject for much speculation. Regardless of Ned’s claim, one of Jon’s parents is indeed a Stark for Jon presents in his countenance the Stark grey eyes and the Stark long face.

So all the Stark progeny inherit a genetic profile that is saturated in historical and familial associations. However, Martin has not confirmed formally in the novels thus far that the “current” Starks of Winterfell attain their warg status on an “as needed” basis. Wargs, a Three- Eyed Crow, greenseers, greendreamers, and magical powers seem to appear in conjunction with the arrival of the Long Night. Moreover, the warging skills develop in each Stark sibling independently and apparently only when the Long Night is inevitable. Otherwise, the warging spirit, greenseeing, and skinchanging remain dormant through generations of Starks.

The Stark powers are associated with magic that is presently awakening for a purpose. Furthermore, storyteller Old Nan, who plays the bard with her tales of the deeds of heroes, does not share much of anything about the Starks turning into wolves or trees or mastering wizardry. Also, Ned and his brother Benjen do not expose themselves as skinchangers either. However, if Martin’s crafting of a blood motif throughout the novels is any indication, then the Stark siblings, with their ancient bloodline, with their own personal greenseer Brandon, and with the other children’s gifts of warging and/or skinchanging, all will disclose a historical past linked by blood and to magic.

To enable the young Starks to discover and master their powers, the forces that are the old gods arrange for Robb to find a litter of orphaned direwolf pups. Jon Snow eloquently convinces Lord Eddard that his five trueborn children each deserve one of the litter. Jon Snow’s personal sacrifice of going without a pup is fortuitously rewarded when the magic of the old gods inspires the bastard to turn back and cross the bridge, where he discovers a sixth direwolf separated from his litter.

Jon Snow immediately declares ownership of the white wolf with red eyes and no voice. The pups are orphaned when their mother dies from a stag antler imbedded in her throat. The stag is the sigil of House Baratheon, and the direwolf is the sigil of House Stark. Because a stag takes down a mother wolf, she leaves behind a litter of six pups.

The significance of the dead mother direwolf is that the Starks will earn the enmity of House Baratheon, who may strike out at the Starks in the same way the stag defeated the mother direwolf.

The direwolf pups act as loyal companions and fierce protectors of the children, but more importantly, the pups are the “conduits” that guide, mirror, and even reinforce the children’s behavior.

As the “wolf dreams” commence, the Starks individually experience an acute awareness of their five senses. Even though the Stark children inherit their warging, skinchanging, and greenseeing gifts through their bloodline, their direwolves will help them to remember what the First Men knew that is now long forgotten in Winterfell. In this fantasy world, it seems that power and knowledge are symbolically bought and paid for with blood.

[TheMtThatRides...Your Mom]

Indeed, and while I remain convinced that his destiny lies up North where its cold, he has been touched by Fire. An interesting philosophical question to follow is whether that touch is indeed in the sense of branding or claiming him, or whether he is thereby innoculated against it.

No, the lantern was only in the show. it was curtains (i think) that he wrapped around his hand and shoved into the fireplace.

[LynnS]

Interesting thought on how the eagle was shot down. If this was how it worked (and to be honest we've no hint of it in Mel's later POV) it does raise the supplementary question as to what would really happen if the popular scenario of Bran or anybody else trying to skinchange a dragon came about. Would one of the other die in in an fiery explosion of insanity?

Mel is keeping herself to herself. We don't get a hint of it in Mel's POV; we get the result in Varamyr's POV. IIRC she and Varys are misunderstood characters. We either give her too much credit or not enough.

I think Mel is the bride of fire mentioned in the undying prophecy rather than Dany. Just as I suspect that Arya, Jon and Bran are named: daughter of darkness, slayer of lies and child of three. .The three stark kids representing three heads of the dragon since they have all been directed or manipulated by the same agency. But who or what is the dragon?

I suspect it's hazardous to skinchange a dragon unless you are made of the same stuff or given immunity like Dany. Her flesh can burn but she was also baptised by fire in Drogo's funeral pyre and chosen by Drogon. If she can skinchange a dragon; can we assume that she drank of the communion cup of fire?.

Curiously, when Mel describes her ordeal by fire, she says that she "drank it in" as well. The fire traced patterns on her skin, like a lover (weaving spells?). And yet, it seems that the inner fire could overwhelm her, burn her up, if she stretches her power too far. As we saw on the wall when she burned rattlebones and glamored Stannis sword, she was afraid that she couldn't control the fire or contain it, that it would get away from her. Her ruby, if that's what it is; seems to be a source of her power and her weakness. Mel appears to be a conduit of sorts herself. She is connected or bound in some way to the source. Which makes me wonder what they do with dragons in Asshai.

Does sacrifice by fire constitute feeding the dragon so the undying can live, live live? When BR and Bran jump in a say Boo; is Mel being subverted?

[LynnS]

AN: Here is the first part of a longer work that explores the “blood motif”!

The Blood Motif in George R.R. Martin’s A Game of Thrones, Book 1 of A Song of Ice and Fire:

How Martin Employs the Blood Motif as a Unifying Device that ConnectsThe Starks, their Direwolves, Winterfell, the Crypts,

and the Heart Tree

“Blood sprayed out across the snow, as red as summerwine” (15).

Very interesting and entertaining read Evita. I'm looking forward to the next installment.

[Black Crow]

Likewise :thumbsup:

[Yield.]

I'm not in favor of Mel giving Jon the kiss of fire. It's too obvious. However, Mel is immune to the cold if that is what is required to go north. My question is about Mel and Orel's eagle and what happened there. Since Varamyr's prologue is about skinchanging; did we miss something about Mel? She recognized a skinchanger present in the eagle and up until now only wargs and skinchangers recognize each other. Did she enter the eagle in a manner akin to skinchanging?

When Beric is asked about being revived; he says that his mouth tastes burned and filled with ashes. It only appears that he is risen again, his wounds healed and mortal since he can be killed again When Mel remembers her experience; she describes the agony of it. So does Varamyr except that he escapes and goes mad for a time. My impression is that someone who is being overtaken by a skinchanger gives the appearance of madness as they fight off the intruder. I think that Mel was alive rather than dead when she was wed to fire and she is chained to the source in some way. Was she literally burned or did the fire enter her in the manner that she entered the eagle?

Is it possible for two minds to exist in one body? I think Euron, maddest of them all is the example and Maelor the Monstrous is said to have had two heads.

I think that fire shot to the eagle was used as a weapon rather than an invitation or initiation. They were in battle so I doubt she was being in anyway friendly or holding back. The observations you make about Mel and fire in this post and your last post are not only spot on they lead to interesting questions of how ice transforms a living person too. While I doubt that she is a skinchanger, I agree Mel was and is alive as I think Craster's boys are alive and transformed by the cold in a manner akin to hers. Varamyr accusingly says to the Old Gods that he used the gift they gave him as he saw fit when he thought the weirwood was judging him, so if his assertion is correct and it does come from the gods then Mel would have gotten her ability to recognise them from god as well.

As to whether there are two minds in one body being involved here I am not sure it's a question of that so much as a question of powerful, sentient forces utilising and being utilised by different factions.

And I too continue to be intrigued by Euron who seems to have a foot in both camps.

[Yield.]

Ah, thank you for the clarification. Very intriguing :idea: - have had some thoughts of my own regarding R'hllor and the Great Other as "boogie men" that are simply useful as political tools. Elemental magik available to sensitives, yes...and that in the R'hllor those sensitives are enslaved...hmmm

Sounds interesting, do tell.

While I haven't given much thought to the Fire side of the equation, I for one have posted in past Heresies that I believe the Cold is sentient. However I think there is also this aspect that you bring up of these forces both using and being used. Especially on the Fire side which is outwardly much more structured.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I think Mel is the bride of fire mentioned in the undying prophecy rather than Dany. Just as I suspect that Arya, Jon and Bran are named: daughter of darkness, slayer of lies and child of three. .The three stark kids representing three heads of the dragon since they have all been directed or manipulated by the same agency. But who or what is the dragon?

I'm with you on non-Dany characters being named in those prophetic ramblings. My current candidates are: Jon (child of three), Patchface (child of storm), Arya (daughter of death), Sam (slayer of lies), Brienne (bride of fire).

[Lord Ravenstark]

I don't think Mel can "skinchange."

We know that wargs can be spotted on sight... so is not hard to imagine that someone taught in magic like can spot someone who use some kind of magic. In my view it was just an Wall-enhanced spell.

About skinchanging a dragon... I don't think someone will went up in flames in the trying. Dragons are magical creatures with a high intelligence for a animal. When Drogon was hurt his wound was described as "smoking" not "the Phlegeton flowed out of the dragon". I believe someone can wear a dragon's skin. It won't be easy, and probably will require an extensive training... and I don't think we willsee it in the books (however, I would like to see it).