Heresy 81

[#Fire and Blood]

I'm not saying that what Othor did was meant as a blessing of any sort,not at all. Why i use the following and as far as initiation goes, at times it can be involuntary.In some cults such as the Malia,initiation was by disease sent to an intended. To be seen as blessed was to overcome the disease.That was how these worshipers were seen as being blessed by the gods because they overcame and were changed.

In some others that are darker in nature, i will not mention,initiation took place as rape which was said to transfer a "spirit" to the intended.Their would be a battle lasting days before the initiate came out or not "touched" and changed in some way.It is after this experience does the veil come off the eyes and one sees anew.

​While the alternative BC has brought up is beautiful and appeals to my girly nature,i'm presenting a more darker aspect that could have been "presented" to Jon not evil but darker.

I've stated that i believe when it comes to his arc, imo Jon is on the left hand path,an aspect of Magik and the path of the Morrigan reserved for initiates that are on her anti path.In the initiation the person is marked ( Jon burning his hand in that fight) and all roads and decisions taken have been left handed basically anti the status quo.i.e Jon. also note to incarnation of the Morrigan were present for this.

1. Forced communion( Othor's hand in his mouth)

2. Branding (burning of hand)

3. Trip beyond the wall starts noticing the beauty of winter.(veil from eyes removed)

How did Jon burn his hand again? I am having trouble finding it.

[Toccs]

How did Jon burn his hand again? I am having trouble finding it.

When he grabbed the lit lantern from Mormont and threw it at the Wight.

[alienarea]

As per the ADWDs prologue, whenever warts die a true death, the last thing they feel is the cold before finding their way to the appropriate animal. We know that Jon is a Warg & that the last thing he felt was the cold.

Jon is dead, no count about it At least until someone trained in Ashai decides to bring him back to life Hmm, do we know anyone like that with in close proximity to the wall?

The clues are all there, the precedence is all there, no need to look further or contrive crazy theories, it is all spelled out for us.

Jon Snow is dead - agreed.

Only a shadowbinder from Asshai can bring him back - not sure if I want that, but yes. So Melisandre.

I still don't see her writing the letter. But maybe resurrecting Jon is the one task she has left to do as she claims in her chapter. And running out of her powders is the least of her worries.

And I guess she is the death that pays for his life and she had to bond with Ghost so all goes well.

Still afraid for Ghost in this scenario.

[Black Crow]

When he grabbed the lit lantern from Mormont and threw it at the Wight.

Indeed, and while I remain convinced that his destiny lies up North where its cold, he has been touched by Fire. An interesting philosophical question to follow is whether that touch is indeed in the sense of branding or claiming him, or whether he is thereby innoculated against it.

[Black Crow]

Jon Snow is dead - agreed.

Only a shadowbinder from Asshai can bring him back - not sure if I want that, but yes. So Melisandre.

Not necessarily; we don't know who else is on hand and possessed of cold powers - and leaving everything else aside, doesn't Mel just seem a tad too obvious?

[alienarea]

Not necessarily; we don't know who else is on hand and possessed of cold powers - and leaving everything else aside, doesn't Mel just seem a tad too obvious?

Leaving aside my pet crackpot that Melisandre is Jon's mother GRRM better starts writing the obvious if he wants to finish the series.

[Eira Seren]

Leaving aside my pet crackpot that Melisandre is Jon's mother GRRM better starts writing the obvious if he wants to finish the series.

if Mel is Jon's mother, then the fact that she tried to seduce him is a bit icky.

[alienarea]

if Mel is Jon's mother, then the fact that she tried to seduce him is a bit icky.

So is twincest

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Indeed, and while I remain convinced that his destiny lies up North where its cold, he has been touched by Fire. An interesting philosophical question to follow is whether that touch is indeed in the sense of branding or claiming him, or whether he is thereby innoculated against it.

Reminds me of that "lightning blasted chestnut overgrown with wild white roses"...

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Reminds me of that "lightning blasted chestnut overgrown with wild white roses"...

...which, lately, I've thought might represent either Jon or Gilly, or both.

[Essan]

Jon Snow is dead - agreed.

Only a shadowbinder from Asshai can bring him back - not sure if I want that, but yes. So Melisandre.

I disagree.

But I do think one of the purposes of the prologue was to instil that thought, that feeling 'the cold' = death, and thus make us think he is dead.

[King of Winters]

Not necessarily; we don't know who else is on hand and possessed of cold powers - and leaving everything else aside, doesn't Mel just seem a tad too obvious?

Yes, the

Theon TWOW sample chapter with Bran and the ravens trying to communicate with Theon and the theory about BranRaven using a sacrifice to wake Jon up

makes more sense and isn't that obvious when compared to Mels trying to wake Jon up from his coma.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Random thought, as I was scanning the prologue to AFFC... but I wonder if Archmaester Walgrave is more than he appears to be. He is described as being old and forgetful, terribly distracted... but I wonder if he isn't actually the "white raven" foil to Bloodraven.

Sounds like Walgrave could be a warg who spends too much time in his ravens. Or he could be some alternative version of a greenseer. Bloodraven seems sort of slow, too, when he speaks to Bran in person - and there is an ancient, half-dead weirwood in the courtyard of the Ravenry on Raven Isle:

The building and the tree seem almost to have grown into one another - they are described much the same - and the tree seems half dead. The white and the black ravens quarrel, and are kept apart, but both reside here. Another House of Black and White? I wonder what Walgrave will look like if and when we see him? The long lost triplet to Bloodraven and the Kindly Man? "The [crow] must have three [eyes]," right?

Possible breakdowns of "Walgrave":

-- "Wal" + "Grave" .... "wal" could be a variant of "wall," or a reference to root words meaning "death/slaughter", "choice", "whale" (Leo Tyrell calls Sam "a black-clad whale"), or possibly "king"

-- "Walg" + "Rave" ... looks kind of like a variation on "warg" + "raven"

Another clue that Walgrave is a Bloodraven equivalent: his age. Sounds like he could well be ~120 yrs old...

In AFFC Prologue, Pate says Walgrave often mistakes him for somebody named "Cressen". So I looked over the ACOK Prologue, to see whether Cressen's POV makes any reference to Walgrave... and it doesn't. That's in spite of the fact that he shows and explains the white raven to Shireen.

So the main thing I take from the Pate/Cressen mix-up is that Walgrave is so old that he would have been a Maester (possibly even an Archmaester) when Cressen was still a novice. Cressen may even have been Walgrave's assistant, same as Pate.

Can't find the reference in the text, but the wiki puts Cressen's age at "nearly eighty" years, and that can't be far wrong...

.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Another clue that Walgrave is a Bloodraven equivalent: his age. Sounds like he could well be ~120 yrs old...

In AFFC Prologue, Pate says Walgrave often mistakes him for somebody named "Cressen". So I looked over the ACOK Prologue, to see whether Cressen's POV makes any reference to Walgrave... and it doesn't. That's in spite of the fact that he shows and explains the white raven to Shireen.

So the main thing I take from the Pate/Cressen mix-up is that Walgrave is so old that he would have been a Maester (possibly even an Archmaester) when Cressen was still a novice. Cressen may even have been Walgrave's assistant, same as Pate.

Can't find the reference in the text, but the wiki puts Cressen's age ,at "nearly eighty" years, and that can't be far wrong...

.

Aemon was the oldest maester Alive...

I don't think Jon was "introduced" to the cold/winter. Every single POV (and some named characters) have it's own plot. Stark children's plot are not clear to me... Bran and Arya are clearly being prepared to their. I don't know what's happening to Sansa and Rickon. Robb had it's own finished, and was useful no more. Jon's plot may already be over (let the Wildlings enter the Gift, and then being killed... Creating chaos an war) however Jon have a huge fan protection... And I'm not sure that GRRM will kill Jon...

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Aemon was the oldest maester Alive...

Yes, so we are told. But what do you mean by "alive"...? (Death ain't what it used to be.)

[LynnS]

Not necessarily; we don't know who else is on hand and possessed of cold powers - and leaving everything else aside, doesn't Mel just seem a tad too obvious?

Yep, there are still two wights in the ice cells and we don't really know what animates them and whether or not IT is strictly confined to their bodies. They seem to be quiescent, but they are confined in ice woven with spells and the cold has arrived.

[LynnS]

And I'm not sure that GRRM will kill Jon...

I think more specificially, GRRM will not kill him off.

[LynnS]

Indeed, and while I remain convinced that his destiny lies up North where its cold, he has been touched by Fire. An interesting philosophical question to follow is whether that touch is indeed in the sense of branding or claiming him, or whether he is thereby innoculated against it.

I have to go with his "beserker" dream that he is armored in ice and wielding fire. I think he has already been claimed by Bran who appears to Jon as "fierce and shouting" and connects him with the Holy Ghost. Even after Othor and the ice crystal vision; he still rejects ice when he sees widlings playing in the snow. Unlike Sansa who builds a snow castle.

[Black Crow]

Yep, there are still two wights in the ice cells and we don't really know what animates them and whether or not IT is strictly confined to their bodies. They seem to be quiescent, but they are confined in ice woven with spells and the cold has arrived.

But they are not and never were wights. They were just two dead wildlings that were brought back to see if they would rise. To date of course they haven't, but that was no doubt the point of the exercise, not to see whether the magic contained within the Wall was effective but to see if perhaps they were carrying something within - like a virus which could be activated.

[Lord Ravenstark]

But they are not and never were wights. They were just two dead wildlings that were brought back to see if they would rise. To date of course they haven't, but that was no doubt the point of the exercise, not to see whether the magic contained within the Wall was effective but to see if perhaps they were carrying something within - like a virus which could be activated.

Or they are just waiting to rise... I see no reason to bring them back while they are inside the cell.

EDIT: Or the Other's magic cannot reach.