Heresy 81

[Eira Seren]

Let me give it some more thought. I admit the reading borders on the grotesque... but like much of Martin's work, there are multiple levels of meaning in play. I would not say this is an either/or situation - so my first phrasing of the theory should probably be adjusted. What do you think?

I'm not sure I'm entirely in agreement, either. But. Cannibalism is a running theme in the series. And it would make sense that Craster, given his position (isolated, without defenses, and desiring to keep control of all his wives and daughters) would greatly benefit from being able to create and maintain this image: A man who engages in some kind of sinister deal with the Others/magic. This protects him both from outside and inside.

Except he must actually be doing something to keep the Others away.

[GoldenVale]

They're both outsiders, as far as the social climate of the Citadel goes (Marwyn for is eccentricity and Walgrave for the infirmity his age gives him) , so there's probably nothing to that. As far as Walgrave himself I'd have to see actually see him for myself, as IIRC we've only heard characters talk about him so far and haven't actually "seen" for ourselves what he's really like.

I don't quite see what we'd learn fro him also being a warg, especially one who seems to have lost his wits, no matter how selective the loss seems. It's seems more likely he's just a kooky old man to me.

[addicted to snow]

Have you ever considered Jon is not going to be mentored? I could see him figuring out how to do things on his own but while he is figuring them out, he begins to do things that he shouldn't do....like bind people to his will. Even though people would recognize it as bad or evil, Jon would most likely not recognize the destructive nature of it as he thinks he is doing is for good reasons. The absence of having somebody teach Jon how to use his powers seems to be essential in creating the another grey charachter in the reincarnation of the Nights King.

I don't think that he will be mentored…

I know that he does't have enough time to become a proficient Warg/Skinchanger with out something supernatural taking place.

[Eira Seren]

Deleted, wrong thread.

[Black Crow]

Possible breakdowns of "Walgrave":

-- "Wal" + "Grave" .... "wal" could be a variant of "wall," or a reference to root words meaning "death/slaughter", "choice", "whale" (Leo Tyrell calls Sam "a black-clad whale"), or possibly "king"

-- "Walg" + "Rave" ... looks kind of like a variation on "warg" + "raven"

Just to throw a minor wobbler into this one, or rather an English peculiarity; the name Walgrave or Waldegrave is actually pronounced Wargrave

[addicted to snow]

I have to disagree with you on a few points so to be accurate. Haggon never lied or not lied to V.Sixskins about anything. He only laid down a moral code to which he wanted V6 to follow.Of the things he did tell him about skinchanging they were true not once did he say that Haggon lied he only called Haggon a coward It is in response to that did V6 respond that Haggon was afraid of his gift. For the same reason he admonished Jon in his mind for not "glorying" in his gift.Not breaking the abominations that he V6 did himself.

Secondly, he didn't "think" he would loose his gift he expected to loose it,V6 skins i'm sure must have guess that the gift is tied to his blood.He would no longer be a skinchanger,he would just fade into one eye.

I don't know how your reading this but when it comes to what happens it is clear. Currently,one eyeV6 is a part of Bran's pack now.Beaten into submission by Bran and slowly dissolving into one eye.

If what your saying was even probable it would be Summer not Ghost.V6 being a strong skinchanger when he was alive does not negate what Haggon,Leaf,BR and the examples of Orell and Bran's own experience in the Raven show us.

V6 gave us insight into skinchanging and he gave us an eye witness account of what happens when a person turns to a Wight. That was his purpose.

Haggon never lied to Varamyr… Haggon was just speaking on a subject that he was not well educated on. Yes, He was a Warg, but he was scared of his abilities, he did not probe or explore his powers, and because of this he provided inaccurate information to Varamyr. It is known.

--

It will be interesting to see how GRRM makes all this work. I don't know how he will get there, I can only tell you that this is where he's going...

[addicted to snow]

:agree:

Old Nan is telling the family stories, "the ancient traditions" to the Stark children; that does indeed appear to be her sole function. She is bringing them up with those stories from an early age, preparing them for the day when they are old enough to understand what they mean and why they are important. The problem here is that Ned was sent away long before his father sat him down, and Benjen too, although still at home may not have been "big" enough to know everything, albeit he no doubt filled in the gaps on the Wall. Whatever the precise circumstances, whether a simple failure to communicate or a reluctance on Benjen's part to tell his older brother, that knowledge gap is there.

Benjin was likely filled in when he became the Stark in Winterfell… Because the Stark Secrets seem to be directly tied to this position in some way.

I don't really recall Old Nan ever telling them any stories that one wouldn't expect to be told at Last Hearth or Barrowton.

[Black Crow]

Have you ever considered Jon is not going to be mentored? I could see him figuring out how to do things on his own but while he is figuring them out, he begins to do things that he shouldn't do....like bind people to his will. Even though people would recognize it as bad or evil, Jon would most likely not recognize the destructive nature of it as he thinks he is doing is for good reasons. The absence of having somebody teach Jon how to use his powers seems to be essential in creating the another grey charachter in the reincarnation of the Nights King.

I think its something that is going to depend very much on circumstances and in particular what happens in the immediate aftermath of the stabbing. If the mutiny is successful whether with or without the assistance of the Queen's Men I don't see him lasting long enough to find out. If he's not already dead they'll make sure that he is without bothering to shove him in the ice cells. If Mel gets her hands on him he'll be her slave. On balance, given that we've been told we'll see the Land of Always Winter and learn of the Others and their close relationship with the children, I would say the probability is that Jon is going north. That to my mind offers two or three options. Either he's not as badly hurt as we thought and capable of being chased through the forest by his enemies, or he is badly hurt and will require a period of recuperation when Borroq can tell him the facts of life, or he can simply weake up dead like Coldhands. The latter might be useful for going up north, but the fact he seemingly needs something to eat suggests we may be closer to the first option.

Be that as it may. We have had the Varamyr prologue explaining the basics of skinchanging and we have Bloodraven teaching Bran to be a Greenseer. I really don't see GRRM spending a great deal of time telling it all over again just for Jon's benefit. What is perhaps more likely is that he might come into his powers without the benefit of an education in the ethics of it all and so use them recklessly.

[Black Crow]

Benjin was likely filled in when he became the Stark in Winterfell… Because the Stark Secrets seem to be directly tied to this position in some way.

I don't really recall Old Nan ever telling them any stories that one wouldn't expect to be told at Last Hearth or Barrowton.

Yeah, but the point is that there was no-one there to fill him in. It was that Maester who encouraged the Southern ambitions who was there in Lord Rickard's day and so is hardly likely to be well enough versed in the family lore, while Maester Luwin arrived after Lord Rickard was dead.As you say most of Old Nan's stories could easily be told elsewhere, but at some point somebody had to sit the kids down and tell them what was real.

In this context its worth bearing in mind that while Ned worries about his children he isn't getting his knickers in a twist because he never told Robb what really happens on the second full moon after the white raven... presumably because nobody told him either.

[GoldenVale]

I think its something that is going to depend very much on circumstances and in particular what happens in the immediate aftermath of the stabbing. If the mutiny is successful whether with or without the assistance of the Queen's Men I don't see him lasting long enough to find out. If he's not already dead they'll make sure that he is without bothering to shove him in the ice cells. If Mel gets her hands on him he'll be her slave. On balance, given that we've been told we'll see the Land of Always Winter and learn of the Others and their close relationship with the children, I would say the probability is that Jon is going north. That to my mind offers two or three options. Either he's not as badly hurt as we thought and capable of being chased through the forest by his enemies, or he is badly hurt and will require a period of recuperation when Borroq can tell him the facts of life, or he can simply weake up dead like Coldhands. The latter might be useful for going up north, but the fact he seemingly needs something to eat suggests we may be closer to the first option.

Be that as it may. We have had the Varamyr prologue explaining the basics of skinchanging and we have Bloodraven teaching Bran to be a Greenseer. I really don't see GRRM spending a great deal of time telling it all over again just for Jon's benefit. What is perhaps more likely is that he might come into his powers without the benefit of an education in the ethics of it all and so use them recklessly.

I think the first is the more likely to happen. I don't see Borroq giving up life lessons to Jon for any reason whatsoever (and if IIRC correctly we don't even know if the two have ever interacted) and as far as being dead like ole Frigid Fingers, we still have no idea how Coldhands got the way he is. Assuming that Jon will somehow undergo the process right there at the Wall, even without knowing what that process is seems like reaching to me. If he does die and get re-animated then wouldn't the more likely source be Mel?

AS far as ethics goes I doubt Jon will have trouble seeing right from wrong when warging. Or at least he shouldn't.

[wolfmaid7]

"Kevan was cold as ice, and every labored breath sent a fresh stab of pain through him"

Wolfmaid, I am hoping you could embelish on this a bit. This is the description from after Kevan Lannister was mortally wounded in the tower of the hand. I can take this one of three ways.

1. The cold has made its way down to KL and prehaps Kevan will be wighted after his death? (I think this one very unlikely as we have not seen anybody south of the wall turn yet)

2. GRRM is again highlighting that when charachters are dying, they all have a cold sensation. Maybe just what they are feeling when they die, or maybe he is trying to tell us something about cold and death being closely related metaphorically.

3. This cold described is not the same as the cold described by those who have felt this at or North of the wall

Anything here?

I have to agree with the guys on this,i think this is just the body going into shock and dying.What i have noted is a rapid drop in temperature and pretty much Thistle's reaction. Which i believe is our first look at when someone is Wighted.

Haggon never lied to Varamyr… Haggon was just speaking on a subject that he was not well educated on. Yes, He was a Warg, but he was scared of his abilities, he did not probe or explore his powers, and because of this he provided inaccurate information to Varamyr. It is known.

--

It will be interesting to see how GRRM makes all this work. I don't know how he will get there, I can only tell you that this is where he's going...

Then who is educated Addicted....What was his point according to you he had little idea of what he's talking about so what was his point. Not everything everyone says is unreliable. As i said Haggon was trying to teach V6 a code of conduct.In addition,what he told V6 would happen to him actually happened so he did not lie.

What he didn't glory in according to V6 were the abominations and the unrestrained behavior V6 was doing.

Your argument is not supported by the text.

The text says,at present One eye and the rest of his pack was taken over by Summer,One eye got in a fight with Summer for control of his pack and he got his butt kicked.He didn't try to do anything,Bran wasn't invaded by V6 because it just can't happen. It works one way and one way only,he can't jump from one eye to claim someone else.....and that is known.

You keep focusing on what Haggon taught V6. But it is not only Haggon saying this,Leaf,BR,the creeps(Jojen and Meera) are all saying this.....so to you all of them are unreliable.

I don't think soooo

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Just to throw a minor wobbler into this one, or rather an English peculiarity; the name Walgrave or Waldegrave is actually pronounced Wargrave

Actually, that is very helpful. The wikipedia page for Wargrave village (Berkshire, England) says this about the origin of the name:

The name Wargrave is derived from 'Weir-Grove', 'Weregreave', rather than a literal meaning of War Grave and the village dates back to medieval times.

[alienarea]

Currently I like the thought that Jon Snow is and stays dead.

[#Fire and Blood]

I think the first is the more likely to happen. I don't see Borroq giving up life lessons to Jon for any reason whatsoever (and if IIRC correctly we don't even know if the two have ever interacted) and as far as being dead like ole Frigid Fingers, we still have no idea how Coldhands got the way he is. Assuming that Jon will somehow undergo the process right there at the Wall, even without knowing what that process is seems like reaching to me. If he does die and get re-animated then wouldn't the more likely source be Mel?

AS far as ethics goes I doubt Jon will have trouble seeing right from wrong when warging. Or at least he shouldn't.

Jon will definitely struggle with what is right and wrong about warging. Bran (granted he is younger) already commits one of the most grievous warging sins every time he goes into Hodor. Bran thinks to himself that he shouldn't tell anybody about it as they might be afraid or tell him it is wrong, but Bran has convinced himself that what he is doing when he goes into Hodor is a good thing.

We have already seen Jon's values come into question. He was very gung ho about keeping with the Nights Watch and their traditions several times. He turned Stannis down to be lord of winterfell, he turned a life with Yrigritte down, he ultimately came back to the wall after Ned was executed. He choose to take another path that blatantly goes against what the rules of the NW are. *I should note that I am referring to marching the NW to WF to take it back* If he is willing to do that, why would he not use his warging powers in such a way that may seem like a good thing to do at the time but in fact are seen as monstrous?

I am reminded of the scene in Lord of the Rings (the movie, though I did read the books but don't recall if this is actually how it went down), when Frodo offers the ring to Galadriel and she ultimately turns it down because even though she thinks she will be doing the right things with the rings, the ring will still corrupt what she is doing and will be doing it for evil.

ASOIAF is not as black and white when it comes to morality codes as LOTR is. Just saying that should be proof enough that Jon very well may not use his abilities for the best of things, even if he has good intentions.

[wolfmaid7]

Fire@ blood you are correct noting the grey involved with done of the tenets. I would like to point out that the moral code Haggon tried to instill in V6 may not have been an abomination to others.

V6 had said not all Skinchangers believed as Haggon did. Therefore I don't think this morality applies to Bran, his teachers are not going out of their way to tell Bran he must do X and not do Y.

So this may not be an abomination to creatures such as the COTF. But as V6 teacher Haggon felt it neccassary to give him some moral instruction which may have had some beginning as a no no .

[Lord Ravenstark]

Currently I like the thought that Jon Snow is and stays dead.

I would like it too... But I want to see what will happen.

Walgrave: Haggon said that people start to adopt the behavior of the skin they wear... Maybe it's happening to him. Or crack potting, he is being skin weared by BR.

Just a curiosity: anyone have noticed that Ned's children (except Rickon, cause we don't know what's happening to him... Or even if he's alive) are being tutored/watched by different religious views? Sansa - Petyr (atheism/seven), Jon - Melisandre (R'hllor), Arya - House of Black and White (many-faced god) and Bran - Children/Bloodraven ("old gods", he's even married to the trees)?

[wolfmaid7]

I don't see Jon being tutored by Rhlorr he is highly distrustful of Mel. If anything the Wildlings have a greater influence and the Old gods

[GoldenVale]

Jon will definitely struggle with what is right and wrong about warging. Bran (granted he is younger) already commits one of the most grievous warging sins every time he goes into Hodor. Bran thinks to himself that he shouldn't tell anybody about it as they might be afraid or tell him it is wrong, but Bran has convinced himself that what he is doing when he goes into Hodor is a good thing.

We have already seen Jon's values come into question. He was very gung ho about keeping with the Nights Watch and their traditions several times. He turned Stannis down to be lord of winterfell, he turned a life with Yrigritte down, he ultimately came back to the wall after Ned was executed. He choose to take another path that blatantly goes against what the rules of the NW are. *I should note that I am referring to marching the NW to WF to take it back* If he is willing to do that, why would he not use his warging powers in such a way that may seem like a good thing to do at the time but in fact are seen as monstrous?

I am reminded of the scene in Lord of the Rings (the movie, though I did read the books but don't recall if this is actually how it went down), when Frodo offers the ring to Galadriel and she ultimately turns it down because even though she thinks she will be doing the right things with the rings, the ring will still corrupt what she is doing and will be doing it for evil.

ASOIAF is not as black and white when it comes to morality codes as LOTR is. Just saying that should be proof enough that Jon very well may not use his abilities for the best of things, even if he has good intentions.

I'm well aware of the fact that morals aren't black and white especially when it comes to ASOIAF. Bran had other reasons apart from him being 8. He's crippled and bitter about it and warging Hodor allowed him to "walk" again. He wargs Summer when Summer eats because he (and his travelling companions) were practically starving at the time.

The circumstances with Jon are, in my opinion very different. Outside of whatever his state will be when the next book starts, I feel he's much more up to the task of understanding and handling the ethics his gift comes with. In part actually to some of his recent experiences at the NW.

We have already seen Jon's values come into question. He was very gung ho about keeping with the Nights Watch and their traditions several times. He turned Stannis down to be lord of winterfell, he turned a life with Yrigritte down, he ultimately came back to the wall after Ned was executed. He choose to take another path that blatantly goes against what the rules of the NW are. *I should note that I am referring to marching the NW to WF to take it back* If he is willing to do that, why would he not use his warging powers in such a way that may seem like a good thing to do at the time but in fact are seen as monstrous?

He was gung-ho about keeping his NW vows at the start because of the new sense of purpose being in the NW gave him. Being a brother of the Watch was something he could refer to himself as other than "Ned Stark's Bastard".

I can't quite bring myself to understanding his refusal of Stannis' offer as a moral choice and as far as him turning away form a life with Ygritte and the Wildlings he arguably made the right choice in that regard.

His asking the NW to take up arms against Bolton doesn't strike me as a typically orally objectionable choice either. He ASKS them for their help, and explicitly states that no one had to fight if they didn't want to. The act that he ask them in the first place was unavoidable considering Bolton claimed he'd be on his way there.

I also think it'd be good to consider another point in the story where Jon is faced with such a choice. When he first meets Ygritte, the Halfhand orders Jon to kill her. Despite the orders from his superior, Jon ultimately lets her go, because he thought it was morally wrong to kill her.

I'm not saying the situations won't come up that will test Jon and give him pause about his abilities, I just think that when those situations come up he'll more than likely figure things out for himself.

[#Fire and Blood]

Fire@ blood you are correct noting the grey involved with done of the tenets. I would like to point out that the moral code Haggon tried to instill in V6 may not have been an abomination to others.

V6 had said not all Skinchangers believed as Haggon did. Therefore I don't think this morality applies to Bran, his teachers are not going out of their way to tell Bran he must do X and not do Y.

So this may not be an abomination to creatures such as the COTF. But as V6 teacher Haggon felt it neccassary to give him some moral instruction which may have had some beginning as a no no .

I would agree with you there. I guess my main point is that we hear stories of the nights kings binding the NW to his will. With a little interpretation if what that means, I would think that he perhaps was influencing them through some type of warging. How else would he "bind" them to his will?

That said the rules of warging are I'm sure just as grey as everything else in the series. My main lint is, I can see him doing things with his abilities that are well intentioned but may look monstrous or evil to the general onlooker.

[addicted to snow]

Secondly, he didn't "think" he would loose his gift he expected to loose it,V6 skins i'm sure must have guess that the gift is tied to his blood.He would no longer be a skinchanger,he would just fade into one eye.

Expect: to think that something will probably happen

If Varamyr had been certain, GRRM would have used a different word...