Heresy 81

[addicted to snow]

Assuming R+L=J is true....

I have a theory about Shireen (and it seems obvious to me so I am sure somebody has suggested it).

Shireen has had nightmares that a dragon eats her.

Jon is possibly mortally wounded

Mel is obsessed with sacrificing something with Kings blood

She could sacrifice Shireen to wake Jon the Dragon (of course where does the Dragon from stone bit come in?....)

Dragon from stone. I believe from could be referring to Shireen's condition. People in Essos (don't remember the exact location, but its where JC got the illness from) that have greyscale are called Stone Men.

Shireen is of Kings blood and she could be considered the stone from which a sacrifice could be made and awake the Dragon.

Jon (the Dragon) would be eating Shireens soul in whatever ritual Mel pulls off to bring him back.

Make sense?

The last time we saw someone brought back to life (or spared from eminent death) in such a way did not require a king's blood… horse blood was all that was required to save Khal Drogo's life… Which is the same state that Jon will be in after Mel works her magic. Instead of being burned like Drogo, Jon will of course be left in the ice-cells (otherwise GRRM wasted countless pages in ADWDs describing the ice-cells, meat-locker below the wall, etc).

I got the impression that the stone dragon that Mel hoped to raise was integral to Dragonstone. After Stannis ventured North, I do not recall her mentioning the idea of waking the stone dragon.

I had forgotten about Shireen's dream of being eaten buy a dragon - that is very interesting. This could be taken to suggest that Dany will not only make it to Westeros, but will engage Stannis at some point, though by itself I don't think this is solid proof.

[#Fire and Blood]

The last time we saw someone brought back to life (or spared from eminent death) in such a way did not require a king's blood horse blood was all that was required to save Khal Drogo's life Which is the same state that Jon will be in after Mel works her magic. Instead of being burned like Drogo, Jon will of course be left in the ice-cells (otherwise GRRM wasted countless pages in ADWDs describing the ice-cells, meat-locker below the wall, etc).

I got the impression that the stone dragon that Mel hoped to raise was integral to Dragonstone. After Stannis ventured North, I do not recall her mentioning the idea of waking the stone dragon.

I had forgotten about Shireen's dream of being eaten buy a dragon - that is very interesting. This could be taken to suggest that Dany will not only make it to Westeros, but will engage Stannis at some point, though by itself I don't think this is solid proof.

You are correct that it only took a horse to raise the Kahl. However he became a vegetable. Also note that mmd more or less said it wasn't so much the horse she used but more Danys baby.

It could also be said Danys baby was of kings blood. However the baby was not a fully formed adult. Perhaps it had something to do with that.

Kings blood to raise a dragon. Danys baby was born a grotesque monster who had wings and other Dragon parts.

I am not making all the connections right now but I think we could say that the ritual was performed incorrectly. It did use kings blood and did attempt to make a dragon.

Any others see some connections here?

[addicted to snow]

I think the ritual was done correctly, only Khal Drogo's spirit was gone. Just like Jon's body will be in a vegetable-like state because Jon's spirit will embark on a journey North, inside of Ghost & alongside Val. Khal Drogo's Spitit had gone elsewhere… But do not worry, MMD prophesized that he would return to Danny in the future.

I'm not so certain that Dany's baby was the real cost. She was taken into the tent during the ritual by accident, MMD did not intend for this to happen. Later, her words were just spiteful, trying to make Dany blame herself. When Dany was taken into the tent, it could be that Drogo's Spirit entered the body of Rheago (Dany's child) instead of his own body.

I am also not so sure that I believe the baby was dragon-like either… This level of magic seems to be a bit beyond the scope of ASOIAF, which makes me doubtful. We have not been told this whole story, Mormont acted as though he had a very guilty conscious when he recalled the event in his mind. I think that he might have acted on some orders from Varys/Illirio to do one of the following:

• I think he may have killed the baby on orders from Varys/Illirio who did not want the 'stallion who mounts the world' to contest their Aegon.
  
• Or Mormont was unable to carry out these orders, so he let one of the new Khals take the "Stallion who mounts the world" as their own to raise (that way they would be assured to be allied with the Stallion when his day comes). I like this scenario the best because it offers MMD's prophesy a means being fulfilled in the next few books, as Dany is back with the Dothraqi, where she started.
  

But Mormont & MMD were definitely hiding something about Dany's Child.

[Black Crow]

Yes, Mels sacrificing Shireen is Mels "eating" her and the waking dragons from stone could be Mels trying to revive Jon (another "dragon") using Shireen's (the stone (because of the greyscale)) sacrifice.

I'm still not so sure about Mel using Shireen to raise Jon. Its not a trick she's tried before (and most of what she does is apparently tricks and glamours - or smoke and mirrors if you prefer) and a very high price demanded for an uncertain and very limited object.

Sacrificing Shireen for the sake of her "king's blood" might conceivably be justified by Mel if Azor Ahai was dangerously wounded unto death, but while she regards Jon as useful, she hasn't actually identified him as Azor Ahai - much as many readers would like her to and go banging their heads against the Wall at what they see as her denseness in "failing" to read the tea-leaves properly.

And again we have Selyse. Blind faith is all very well but Jon isn't Azor Ahai.

[Eira Seren]

I think its something that is going to depend very much on circumstances and in particular what happens in the immediate aftermath of the stabbing. If the mutiny is successful whether with or without the assistance of the Queen's Men I don't see him lasting long enough to find out. If he's not already dead they'll make sure that he is without bothering to shove him in the ice cells. If Mel gets her hands on him he'll be her slave. On balance, given that we've been told we'll see the Land of Always Winter and learn of the Others and their close relationship with the children, I would say the probability is that Jon is going north. That to my mind offers two or three options. Either he's not as badly hurt as we thought and capable of being chased through the forest by his enemies, or he is badly hurt and will require a period of recuperation when Borroq can tell him the facts of life, or he can simply weake up dead like Coldhands. The latter might be useful for going up north, but the fact he seemingly needs something to eat suggests we may be closer to the first option.

I am still trying to figure how Tormund's wildlings and (possible) remaining Flints/Norreys will figure into the mix. I can see Borroq perhaps coming to his rescue, but what LynnS says makes a lot of sense to me:

Here's my crackpot for the evening on Jon's last chaptern ADWD. The whole thing feels like a set up. We have Jon receiving news that his attempt to rescue the wildlings at Hardhome is a disaster. He goes to Queen Selyse to tell her that he plans to mount a ranging to rescue them. She declines to offer help and Jon is chased down by Mel; who also demands that he stay telling him that all is lost at Hardhome and that she has seen it in her fires. He disbelieves her and says he's going anyway. Strangely, Mel didn't bother to tell him what she had seen in the fires until then.

Then almost immediately, Jon recieves Ramsey Bolton's letter with it's strange contradictions. He says that he has destroyed Stannis except that the last time we saw both parties they were snow bound and weak and I think neither side able to mount an effective offensive. Ramsey demands that Jon return Reek and Arya except that if he had destroyed Ramsey; he would already have Reek and Jon already knows that Arya is fake Arya. Jon doesn't decide to go to Winterfell for any other reason except that his honor has been attacked by that creature.

Mel and Borroq along with two of Selise knights attend the meeting in the Hall of Shields. Mel leaves when John recieves the support of all present. Jon then goes to the courtyard where he is distracted by the Wun Weg swinging Ser Patrick around with apparent sword wounds on his belly. It appears that Ser Patrick attacked the giant. Jon attempts to restore order but is taken by surprise by Wick Whittlestick who immediately yields after slashing Jon's neck with his hands upraised as if to say "Not me, it was not me." Followed by Bowen Marsh who is weeping as he too stabs Jon For the Watch.

Sorry, I don't believe it. I don't think there was an unspoken rule saying the four men would act in concert so quickly after the news from Winterfell; that they would come up behind Jon while conveniently distracted by the giant dismembering Ser Patrik. I think it would be more likely that the men of the night's watch would try to talk Jon out of it or reason with him first.

But I do think it is contrived and not through skinchanging by the obvious suspect Borroq. This is Mel taking things into her own hands since she cannot persuade, convince or seduce Jon by any other means. I think she meant to stop him from going to Hardhome and has seen Jon in the fires doing just that. And I think she knows something of Ramsey's letter. It would be a simple thing for Mel to use hypnotic induction on certain members of the NW and create a distraction using Ser Patrick. Any number of words from the letter would suffice to kick her puppets into action.

Mel has suggested that she is capable of hypnosis; that glamors are part suggestion and I when Stannis says that he has seen visions in the fire; I imagine this is Mel's doing as well.

So now she has Jon right where she wants him; if she can take control of the chaos. It may be that Mel is tyhe author of the letter herself since it arrives so conveniently after Jon declines to listen to her.

This is the most convincing case I've heard yet for Mel writing the Pink Letter. I agree that the entire scenario seems contrived. The first time I read the book, I thought it might even have been contrived by Jon himself, but after reading it again, I don't think so. However, this is a good explanation. I still want to know what Jon and Tormund were discussing for ever so long, but haven't worked it out yet.

I'm not so certain that Dany's baby was the real cost. She was taken into the tent during the ritual by accident, MMD did not intend for this to happen. Later, her words were just spiteful, trying to make Dany blame herself. When Dany was taken into the tent, it could be that Drogo's Spirit entered the body of Rheago (Dany's child) instead of his own body.

well, Rhaego was only one. Drogo and MMD were the other two. Three deaths for three dragons.

[LynnS]

Yes that bit about Jon calling to Ghost makes me wonder again how it is that other skinchangers recognise each other on sight. Is there some strange radio wave they are all attuned to? Can they pick up on the distress signals of others when they are broadcast so desperately the way I would image Jon did in that moment. Or would Borroq's boar have felt what was happening and alerted Borroq the way the DWs feel things and given warning?

Even if they had no clue and arrive a bit late to the party, I agree entirely that the beastie would make short work of those involved. All hunters, even those with guns agree boar is dangerous game to go after.

I'm very curious about Borroq and his black boar and the fact that there is immediate animosity between Ghost and the boar. Tormund tells Jon that they should be kept apart... it is known. This reminds me of Snowfyre's observations about the white and black ravens at the Citadel; that they must be kept apart as well.

I assume that Borroq calls Jon brother when they meet, because he is acknowledges Jon as a warg/skinchanger; a part of Borroq's community. And then Tormund identifies Borroq as one of their rangers. But there is quite a bit of tension between them. Borroq asks Jon if he is a coward when Jon says he won't lead the ranging to Hardhome and asks the whereabouts of Jon's white dog .

It's possible that Borroq is responsible for the mayhem and stabbing Jon. The nature of the boar is to rip apart their foes and this is exactly what Wun Weg is doing to Ser Patrik. It wouldn't be the first time that a skinchanger used a gentle giant since we have Bran doing the same thing with Hodor who also doesn't know his own strength. Then we have Wick Whittlestick and Bowen Marsh's equally strange behavior. Why would Borroq react this way?

Jon has made an incredibly bad decision. By sending Tormund to Hardhome and taking any wildling who wants to go with him to Winterfell; he is leaving the Wall without any defenses against the enemy about to descend on the them. Incapacitating Jon, puts a stop to all that.

There seems to be more to Borroq than meets the eye. And I go back to Snowfyre's observation about the House of Black and White; white vs black ravens; white wolf vs black boar. Death pays for life. .

[LynnS]

I am still trying to figure how Tormund's wildlings and (possible) remaining Flints/Norreys will figure into the mix. I can see Borroq perhaps coming to his rescue, but what LynnS says makes a lot of sense to me:

This is the most convincing case I've heard yet for Mel writing the Pink Letter. I agree that the entire scenario seems contrived. The first time I read the book, I thought it might even have been contrived by Jon himself, but after reading it again, I don't think so. However, this is a good explanation. I still want to know what Jon and Tormund were discussing for ever so long, but haven't worked it out yet.

Well it could be that Mel isn't responsible if you look at the angles. Jon's death could be a convergence of multiple plots. Mel as the author of Jon's demise is a rather complicated means to an end. Simpler to lay this at Borroq's feet, a reaction to events rather than something premeditated for reasons that are not as clear. I'd say he is suspect and that his part has more to do with Jon as a sacrifice.

I have some trouble with the idea that this was a plot within the NW to remove Jon or that they were acting on their oath. But it's fun to think about the possibilities. I usually take the position that it's not going to turn out the way I think it will. LOL.

[Eira Seren]

Well it could be that Mel isn't responsible if you look at the angles. Jon's death could be a convergence of multiple plots. Mel as the author of Jon's demise is a rather complicated means to an end. Simpler to lay this at Borroq's feet, a reaction to events rather than something premeditated for reasons that are not as clear. I'd say he is suspect and that his part has more to do with Jon as a sacrifice.

I have some trouble with the idea that this was a plot within the NW to remove Jon or that they were acting on their oath. But it's fun to think about the possibilities. I usually take the position that it's not going to turn out the way I think it will. LOL.

Bowen Marsh I could see. The other NW stabbers not so much. But Mel. . . she's been warning Jon that he's in danger. She told him his sister was headed for the wall, but got Alys Karstark instead. Jon has already begun to see through her. So if she could prove to him that she's right, it might be worth it. But not everything is a giant conspiracy, and I'm sure Borroq must have a significant part to play. Probably I'm just running in circles :)

[alienarea]

I don't believe that Melisandre had a hand in it because we have never seen her resurrecting anyone. It would be a very high gamble to have Jon killed only to resurrect him if she isn't sure she can deliver the second part of that plan.

[Lord Ravenstark]

I don't think Melisandre will even try to sacrifice somebody to resurrect Jon... If she is going to try it, will not require a sacrifice. I don't Borroq was controlling anybody... at least not directly. A Wildling Conspiration? Far from absurd. However, I think that Jon was stabbed simply cause he broke his vows and betrayed the North. "He did it for good" you might say, however it's your view of fan but I doubt if anybody seeing thousands of wildlings wavering through the gates will think the same.

[Eira Seren]

Am not sure Mel can resurrect anyone, either. And those wounds seemed pretty real, not just some kind of glamour, which is her method of doing things so far (Mance/Rattleshirt).

It brings me back to V6 and the scene with Thistle. The purpose of this scene must be quite important, since it serves to illustrate how the process of death/warging works. Plus the abomination part. Plus, it's the Prologue, a kind of framework for important events in the book (like in AGOT, the framework is the confrontation with the Others, which foreshadows a later one that will have to be reckoned with before the series concludes).

Also, in reading V6's Prologue again, it talks about how he holds the wolves and shadowcat "in thrall." Sounds a lot like the NK "binding men" to himself.

[Lummel]

...Sorry, I don't believe it. I don't think there was an unspoken rule saying the four men would act in concert so quickly after the news from Winterfell; that they would come up behind Jon while conveniently distracted by the giant dismembering Ser Patrik. I think it would be more likely that the men of the night's watch would try to talk Jon out of it or reason with him first...

We have seen Marsh in particular but also Yarwyck complain, protest and try to disuade through reason and conversation from pursing different courses of action that they disapprove of for chapters. The increasing gulf of incomprehension between Jon and his officers is a theme of his arc throughout ADWD. It is not something sudden that pops up out of nowhere in Jon XIII (or indeed John 13 if we want to go out on the Golden Bough) and they have by that point in teh story exhausted more reasonable alternatives at dealing with Jon.

...It's possible that Borroq is responsible for the mayhem and stabbing Jon. The nature of the boar is to rip apart their foes and this is exactly what Wun Weg is doing to Ser Patrik. It wouldn't be the first time that a skinchanger used a gentle giant since we have Bran doing the same thing with Hodor who also doesn't know his own strength. Then we have Wick Whittlestick and Bowen Marsh's equally strange behavior. Why would Borroq react this way? ...

I would say it is not possible for Borroq to control wunwun and be responsible for the mayhem precisely because we have seen Bran warging Hodor! The one thing that we learn from Bran attempting to warg Hodor from ASOS to ADWD is that it is incredibly difficult and takes a long time to gain control - ie prolonged attempts over months if not over a year. Again we have the ADWD prologue to back this up. Varamyr was a powerful warg but he can't just leap in and take over an adult's consciousness. Note that we don't see the yard of Castle Black full of dozens of people squrming and trying to scratch out their own eyes either.

Nor is Wun Wun simply a gentle giant. We know that he is disturbed to rage by the sight of weapons from when Jon led out a party to the weirwood grove to swear the night's watch oath and they discovered Wun Wun and a few other wildlings in ADWD. One of the amusing things in the situation is that Jon precipates the crisis by telling Ser Patrick that wildling women need to be stolen to win them...which he then tries to do with Val.

[Eira Seren]

We have seen Marsh in particular but also Yarwyck complain, protest and try to disuade through reason and conversation from pursing different courses of action that they disapprove of for chapters. The increasing gulf of incomprehension between Jon and his officers is a theme of his arc throughout ADWD. It is not something sudden that pops up out of nowhere in Jon XIII (or indeed John 13 if we want to go out on the Golden Bough) and they have by that point in teh story exhausted more reasonable alternatives at dealing with Jon.

I would say it is not possible for Borroq to control wunwun and be responsible for the mayhem precisely because we have seen Bran warging Hodor! The one thing that we learn from Bran attempting to warg Hodor from ASOS to ADWD is that it is incredibly difficult and takes a long time to gain control - ie prolonged attempts over months if not over a year. Again we have the ADWD prologue to back this up. Varamyr was a powerful warg but he can't just leap in and take over an adult's consciousness. Note that we don't see the yard of Castle Black full of dozens of people squrming and trying to scratch out their own eyes either.

Nor is Wun Wun simply a gentle giant. We know that he is disturbed to rage by the sight of weapons from when Jon led out a party to the weirwood grove to swear the night's watch oath and they discovered Wun Wun and a few other wildlings in ADWD. One of the amusing things in the situation is that Jon precipates the crisis by telling Ser Patrick that wildling women need to be stolen to win them...which he then tries to do with Val.

This explains why Varamyr had so much trouble with Thistle.

Poor Ser Patrick. I can only imagine the reward he would have gotten from Val had his attempt to go wildling progressed. :lol:

Kindof funny that he, at least, was willing to try out a new custom if it got him what he wanted.

[LynnS]

Bowen Marsh I could see. The other NW stabbers not so much. But Mel. . . she's been warning Jon that he's in danger. She told him his sister was headed for the wall, but got Alys Karstark instead. Jon has already begun to see through her. So if she could prove to him that she's right, it might be worth it. But not everything is a giant conspiracy, and I'm sure Borroq must have a significant part to play. Probably I'm just running in circles :)

Yes that is the problem with Mel wrote the Pink Letter. She had previously offered to give up the names to Jon. But it reminds me of the Three Kings Prophecy and Mel attempting to take advantage of what she saw to appear to be responsible for all three deaths instead of just Renly. There may have been a conspiracy, but I think that ended when Jon took off Janos Slynt's head. IF she did "chain" Marsh and Wittlestick; she could then claim that she saw it coming as a means of convincing Jon of her power (and too bad he didn't listen to her the first time).

On the other hand, did Borroq slide into the giant and four men at once? That's quite a feat, even for Varamyr. Unless Borroq is some kind of super-skinchanger; wouldn't these men be fighting like Thistle? It's curious that Bowen is weeping and once the deed is done and the words are said; Whittlestick is released from whatever it is that has him in it's grip.

Tyrion's dream in ADWD:

That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

The words that Tyrion most often repeats are "where do whores go". Words to trigger a killing rage? Planted by whom? If we are talking about hypnosis and glamors as a form of "chaining" as we saw with Mance; certain words dispel the chain. The word that left Mel's mouth turned like a worm in the ear (lock and key) and each man heard a different word.

So perhaps this supports Mel as the author of the letter. It also opens up some suspicions concerning Varys and his capabilities and perhaps the meaning of the "dragon has three heads".

[Yield.]

We have discussed this dance with me invitation before, and comparisons have been drawn with Sansa's snowflake communion. Wolfmaid is of the opinion that Jon received his communion when Othor (deceased) rammed his hand into Jon's throat, but given the Sansa parallel I'm more inclined to look at the snowflakes which tempt him, and that by this means the cold he feels is not the proximity of Craster's boys but his taking of that communion and receiving Winter inside him.

If so, its important because if we turn to the Ice Dragon its having Winter inside her which allows Adara to feel no cold and so interact with the dragon - something which would be rather necessary if Jon is to venture northwards into the Land of Always Winter. There would presumably be a price and Coldhands may already have paid it.

Having finally read Ice Dragon (the sanitised version sadly) I understand what you mean now. And agree that it would be of ineffable value to Jon to commune with Cold, not only to further understand it and ultimately bring peace and balance, but to travel through it. Adara however was born to it and her journey is the reverse of Jon's, she needs to find Heat in order to grow and fulfill her role as whole person. Also noted an interesting Azor Ahai/Last Hero parallel in her with her using her dragon as sacrifice to save her village.

As to the communion bit I see what you are both saying. If I understand correctly then the parallel is pretty clear between Sansa taking the flake on her toungue and Othor's hand in Jon's mouth because that's where Christians imbibe the body of Christ. Other religions do this too, the Maoris eat their warrior dead in order to obtain their fighting skills, again a communion. I can't think of others at the mo, but you get the gist. Take something from without to make the inner stronger and better prepared.

The wounds however, and I not thought of it quite this way before, could be a different point of ingress. I thought that Jon breathed in the cold and that his core temp had already dropped which is why they smoked like dry ice does. But if you look at from another angle they could be tendrils of white mist snaking their way into him and shifting as he shifts.

This is something i compare to in Paganism: Initiation,invitation and invocation.The scene that played out LC Mormont's solar was so odd it really jumped out. I admit the red part is a bit ambiguous to me,i don't know if Othor released Jon because he was done,or because Ghost bit him.But what Othor did imo is akin to a communion/initiation though forced. I just felt he could have gone about killing Jon more easily than shoving his had down his throat Eye to eye he held Jon hand in mouth as if force feeding him.

The invitation i believe took place with the hold "Dance with me anon". Beyond the wall Jon's eyes were open to sea the magic of Winter. The hold snow flake forming and covering leaves etc things that he found to be beautiful.

I see the stabbing and Jon's subsequent feeling of the Cold to be that of an invocation,he called Ghost's name the vestibule i see as the Old God's then he felt the Cold.Prelude to my Jon/Frozen fire theory.

I agree with you ,the Cold has reached the Wall,its just hard to pinpoint exactly how Jon will play into that.

That's very interesting! And I can see what you mean about why on put his hand in his mouth when strangling him would have rendered him speechless just as easily and killed it.

Now the thing I see with the communion in this is that it's not so much an invitation as implant. Can an initiation be forced? I suppose it can. Regardless we do see Jon tempted to accept numerous times the beauty of the cold and snow and make them his own. That snow flake that follows him in the cage, the white wilderness he awakes to when Gilly appears, how the Wildlings live in hillocks in a sea of snow. He is constantly invited and he wants to say yes, but it is duty that stops him. I think with this stabbing his duty will finally be over and he will be able to commune fully.

I agree that his call to Ghost could finally be the invocation to the old gods and acceptance of these invitations. Will we have another Coldhands or Berric or even something like Euron with one black eye and one normal?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

The last time we saw someone brought back to life (or spared from eminent death) in such a way did not require a king's blood… horse blood was all that was required to save Khal Drogo's life…

This is true. But - aside from the fact that things didn't go as planned (or at least, as Dany expected) with MMD's blood magic - there is significant historical evidence to connect horse sacrifice with kingship: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_sacrifice

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

In a strange way, Patchface pantomimes the Horned Lord. He sometimes wears a bucket on his head with antlers attached. Cernonnus is pictured as sitting cross-legged; which is how Jon finds Patchface when he goes to talk to Selyse. He offers to lead the ranging into the sea and out again.

He is the checkered hazard with his red and green motley on his face. A tattoo game board. Illyrio tells Tyrion that the grey plague came to Pentos on a Braavosi ship and although they killed the oarsmen as they tried to come ashore; they couldn't stop the rats that used the oars to leave the ship walking on stone feet, the first indication of grey scale. I would say that Shireen is a carrier, a kind of typhoid Mary and there are plenty of rats in the broken down forts along the wall.

At some point along the way - as I was researching Patchface - I came across this: Harlequin-type Ichthyosis.

I wonder if Patchface is keeping Shireen's greyscale in check, under control? I wonder what would happen if Patchface were to disappear? If he were killed, or driven away - if he and Shireen were separated?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...about the white and black ravens at the Citadel; that they must be kept apart... the House of Black and White; white vs black ravens; white wolf vs black boar. Death pays for life. .

Related to this, I've always been intrigued by this line, describing Ned as he sat the Iron Throne to administer the King's Justice while Robert was off hunting:

"Ned was clad in a white linen doublet with the direwolf of Stark on the breast; his black wool cloak was fastened at the collar by his silver hand of office. Black and white and grey, all the shades of truth."

-- AGOT Chapter 43

[Lord Ravenstark]

While most Skinchangers are able to wear human skin, it's said that Starks are specially powerful skinchangers... Bran being specially powerful among the Starks. All Starks warg in their wolves (except Sansa) unintentionally at first, Bran skinchanges into Weirwoods and humans unintentionally, also. It can be easy for some (Starks) but hard to the others. I wouldn't take the Starks as exemples for skinchanging.

[Yield.]

While most Skinchangers are able to wear human skin, it's said that Starks are specially powerful skinchangers... Bran being specially powerful among the Starks. All Starks warg in their wolves (except Sansa) unintentionally at first, Bran skinchanges into Weirwoods and humans unintentionally, also. It can be easy for some (Starks) but hard to the others. I wouldn't take the Starks as exemples for skinchanging.

I would say that all the Starks are skinchangers whether they progress beyond their wolves or not. Since they all have direwolves as their partners that makes them wargs. GRRM said all wargs are skinchangers but not all skinchangers are wargs. Which to me means something like all sopranos are singer but not all singers are sopranos. Within smaller groups of people we have refining labels which reflect their individual affinity. So a chorus/choir == skinchangers and the member soprano = warg.

ETA

But Yes I agree they should probably not be put up on a pedestal for others to admire on how to do a thing. The are bumbling their way through this the best they can.