Heresy 81

[#Fire and Blood]

Assuming R+L=J is true....

I have a theory about Shireen (and it seems obvious to me so I am sure somebody has suggested it).

Shireen has had nightmares that a dragon eats her.

Jon is possibly mortally wounded

Mel is obsessed with sacrificing something with Kings blood

She could sacrifice Shireen to wake Jon the Dragon (of course where does the Dragon from stone bit come in?....)

Dragon from stone. I believe from could be referring to Shireen's condition. People in Essos (don't remember the exact location, but its where JC got the illness from) that have greyscale are called Stone Men.

Shireen is of Kings blood and she could be considered the stone from which a sacrifice could be made and awake the Dragon.

Jon (the Dragon) would be eating Shireens soul in whatever ritual Mel pulls off to bring him back.

Make sense?

[Yield.]

The meaning of smoke and salt is so illusory and variable that it reminds me of the magicians illusion of smoke and mirrors another form of red herring.

I'm actually more intriqued by Borroq. He is the last of community of skinchangers I think. His boar is monstrous, twice the size of Ghost. Ghost takes an immediate dislike to the boar. He is the last to enter the gate and tells Jon that the enemy is close behind. The boar is a powerful symbol in celtic mythology and associated with Cernunnos, the horned god, the wild hunt and the warrior. Borroq takes up residence in an old tomb in the lichyard and keeps to the shadows in the Shield Hall meeting. Echos of Sandor Clegane and the stranger. Ghost and Mormont's crow are frantic and unsettled.

Boars have an association with death, devouring and the underworld, they dismember and tear their prey apart. As Jon lays dying, he calls to Ghost but then says "stick them with the pointy end", Borroq's boar has tusks as long a swords and Borroq has named Jon "brother". I suspect it will be the boar that makes short work of the attackers rather than Ghost who is locked up.

http://meadhall.homestead.com/BoarsPigsandMyth.html

Yes that bit about Jon calling to Ghost makes me wonder again how it is that other skinchangers recognise each other on sight. Is there some strange radio wave they are all attuned to? Can they pick up on the distress signals of others when they are broadcast so desperately the way I would image Jon did in that moment. Or would Borroq's boar have felt what was happening and alerted Borroq the way the DWs feel things and given warning?

Even if they had no clue and arrive a bit late to the party, I agree entirely that the beastie would make short work of those involved. All hunters, even those with guns agree boar is dangerous game to go after.

[Black Crow]

Here's my take on how that magic could kick in, if it is not Mel that saves that is.

Since wolfmaid and I seem to be the only ones to believe that the Cold is what's responsible for raising the wights I am going to go on and say that it agree with Lynn and others that opt for the Cold rather shock accounting for Jon's numbness and the smoke coming from his wounds.

While it will sound contradictory to what addicted and I have been arguing about, I will say that the only way in which a 'dead' skinchanger can move once again out of his second life is if his body is animated. Like Lord R says and the text says, the gift is with the body of the skinchanger.

I believe that is what happened with Coldhands and why he still has all those ravens following him around. They are his rangers like Bran believes and that's how he knows they are being pursued. With him and what might be significant to Jon is that he over comes the influence of whatever that blue light is.

Nice! Could this be the invitation to dance with control of his soul perhaps?

We have discussed this dance with me invitation before, and comparisons have been drawn with Sansa's snowflake communion. Wolfmaid is of the opinion that Jon received his communion when Othor (deceased) rammed his hand into Jon's throat, but given the Sansa parallel I'm more inclined to look at the snowflakes which tempt him, and that by this means the cold he feels is not the proximity of Craster's boys but his taking of that communion and receiving Winter inside him.

If so, its important because if we turn to the Ice Dragon its having Winter inside her which allows Adara to feel no cold and so interact with the dragon - something which would be rather necessary if Jon is to venture northwards into the Land of Always Winter. There would presumably be a price and Coldhands may already have paid it.

[Black Crow]

Assuming R+L=J is true....

I have a theory about Shireen (and it seems obvious to me so I am sure somebody has suggested it).

Shireen has had nightmares that a dragon eats her.

Jon is possibly mortally wounded

Mel is obsessed with sacrificing something with Kings blood

She could sacrifice Shireen to wake Jon the Dragon (of course where does the Dragon from stone bit come in?....)

Dragon from stone. I believe from could be referring to Shireen's condition. People in Essos (don't remember the exact location, but its where JC got the illness from) that have greyscale are called Stone Men.

Shireen is of Kings blood and she could be considered the stone from which a sacrifice could be made and awake the Dragon.

Jon (the Dragon) would be eating Shireens soul in whatever ritual Mel pulls off to bring him back.

Make sense?

Its an interesting idea that could make sense but I think there are a couple of big arguments against it. First Selyse has an overdeveloped sense of protectiveness towards her daughter and doesn't think much of Jon. She aint going to give her up to bring Jon back and Mel doesn't have the backing to get away with it, glamours or no glamours.

Secondly Val's extreme reaction towards her and insistence that even supposedly dormant greyscale is deadly, allied to a remark by GRRM that disease will be a bigger factor in the books, suggests that Shireen's role will be as a plague-carrier rather than a sacrifice.

[LynnS]

Assuming R+L=J is true....

I have a theory about Shireen (and it seems obvious to me so I am sure somebody has suggested it).

Shireen has had nightmares that a dragon eats her.

Jon is possibly mortally wounded

Mel is obsessed with sacrificing something with Kings blood

She could sacrifice Shireen to wake Jon the Dragon (of course where does the Dragon from stone bit come in?....)

Dragon from stone. I believe from could be referring to Shireen's condition. People in Essos (don't remember the exact location, but its where JC got the illness from) that have greyscale are called Stone Men.

Shireen is of Kings blood and she could be considered the stone from which a sacrifice could be made and awake the Dragon.

Jon (the Dragon) would be eating Shireens soul in whatever ritual Mel pulls off to bring him back.

Make sense?

In a strange way, Patchface pantomimes the Horned Lord. He sometimes wears a bucket on his head with antlers attached. Cernonnus is pictured as sitting cross-legged; which is how Jon finds Patchface when he goes to talk to Selyse. He offers to lead the ranging into the sea and out again.

He is the checkered hazard with his red and green motley on his face. A tattoo game board. Illyrio tells Tyrion that the grey plague came to Pentos on a Braavosi ship and although they killed the oarsmen as they tried to come ashore; they couldn't stop the rats that used the oars to leave the ship walking on stone feet, the first indication of grey scale. I would say that Shireen is a carrier, a kind of typhoid Mary and there are plenty of rats in the broken down forts along the wall.

[King of Winters]

Assuming R+L=J is true....

I have a theory about Shireen (and it seems obvious to me so I am sure somebody has suggested it).

Shireen has had nightmares that a dragon eats her.

Jon is possibly mortally wounded

Mel is obsessed with sacrificing something with Kings blood

She could sacrifice Shireen to wake Jon the Dragon (of course where does the Dragon from stone bit come in?....)

Dragon from stone. I believe from could be referring to Shireen's condition. People in Essos (don't remember the exact location, but its where JC got the illness from) that have greyscale are called Stone Men.

Shireen is of Kings blood and she could be considered the stone from which a sacrifice could be made and awake the Dragon.

Jon (the Dragon) would be eating Shireens soul in whatever ritual Mel pulls off to bring him back.

Make sense?

I think that, since I read the theory about Mels being daughter of Shiera and Bloodraven, Mels might be the "dragon" that "eats" Shireen as she would be a "dragon" being the daughter of two Targ bastards. So I think she'll try and sacrifice Shireen to wake Jon up, but fail.

[#Fire and Blood]

Its an interesting idea that could make sense but I think there are a couple of big arguments against it. First Selyse has an overdeveloped sense of protectiveness towards her daughter and doesn't think much of Jon. She aint going to give her up to bring Jon back and Mel doesn't have the backing to get away with it, glamours or no glamours.

Secondly Val's extreme reaction towards her and insistence that even supposedly dormant greyscale is deadly, allied to a remark by GRRM that disease will be a bigger factor in the books, suggests that Shireen's role will be as a plague-carrier rather than a sacrifice.

I can certainly see your point with both of these, but...

It would be interesting to see how Selyse reacts to Mel's suggestion to sacrifice her daughter. She was the one in the first place who really gave Mel backing on Dragonstone. She is a devout follower, sacrificing her child (whether she knows its for Jon or not) would be an excellent test of how much faith she has. Mel seems capable of doing things that will piss some people off if she thinks that the end result will be good for the fire team.

True about Shireen perhaps spreading the disease. But, we also have Connington who now has the disease on Westeros as well. I think there are many other possiblities that could lead to this plague spreading.

On a side note, I know George said that a plague will play a big part in the series, but haven't we already seen that with the Bloody Flux? Isn't that a potential disease that could spread in Westeros as well when and if Dany arrives?

[#Fire and Blood]

I think that, since I read the theory about Mels being daughter of Shiera and Bloodraven, Mels might be the "dragon" that "eats" Shireen as she would be a "dragon" being the daughter of two Targ bastards. So I think she'll try and sacrifice Shireen to wake Jon up, but fail.

Mel could be the Dragon that eats her too, but this still could be the event that wakes another Dragon from Stone.

[King of Winters]

Mel could be the Dragon that eats her too, but this still could be the event that wakes another Dragon from Stone.

Yes, Mels sacrificing Shireen is Mels "eating" her and the waking dragons from stone could be Mels trying to revive Jon (another "dragon") using Shireen's (the stone (because of the greyscale)) sacrifice.

[LynnS]

It looks to me like the Baratheons have a drop or two of dragon's blood from Rhaelle Targaryen. Targs are known for dreaming of dragons. It seems that Shireen was born at Dragonstone. In ACOK prologue, Maester Cressen says that Shireen will be 10 on her next name day and that he came to Dragonstone with Stannis twelve years past.

It's Maester Cressen who says that Shireen is now a princess and that Stannis is King of smoking rock in the great salt sea. Shireen has come to see the white raven and tells Cressen that she dreams that the dragons were coming to eat her. It could be said that Shireen was born of smoke and salt and that she is the stone dragon. Perhaps Mel attempts some kind of magic that backfires and greyscale is released or awakened through Shireen.

Patchface also chimes in to say that under the sea, the birds have scales. This sounds like a reference to the crows, men of the NW and greyscale. He also says that the shadows are coming to dance (Dance with me Jon Snow.) while the bells in his antlers clang and the white raven shrieks Lord, lord, lord. Bell ringers were employed to ring bells for the dead. (They were also exposed the the hazard of being struck by lightening.)

Shireen like Bloodraven is marked on her cheek and throat. Perhaps it is the greyscale that is consuming her flesh; the breath of the stone dragon that she dreams of.

[mediterraneo]

Sorry, this is unrelated to the actual debate, I was fulgurated by the question reading another post on timelines.

People in Westeros calculate time in years.
There are possibilities about this, like astronomical years being evident to the human civilizations since well before the european middle ages, like "years" being an imported concept from places with a more seasonal climate than Westeros (it is not THAT clear that climate is so locked in Essos too).
But if you don't have reason from the climate that reigns your agricultural process, why to actually "invent" the year as a time measure?
Because 21th century civilization lives on it?
I give for granted that it is not an overlook by Martin, and I'd like to consider the possibility that in Westeros's past there actually was a seasonal cicle that made the concept of "year" appearent and useful in everyday life.

I think that this idea has been already thought in some way or the other in this thread: the idea that before some point in the past (the Pact? the Long Night? the buliding of the Wall as a "hinge of the World"? the Night's King? last wednesday?) weather was "normal" and then something actually unbalanced it.

What do you think?

If that has been debated before, where has it been?

[Black Crow]

Sorry, this is unrelated to the actual debate, I was fulgurated by the question reading another post on timelines.

People in Westeros calculate time in years.

There are possibilities about this, like astronomical years being evident to the human civilizations since well before the european middle ages, like "years" being an imported concept from places with a more seasonal climate than Westeros (it is not THAT clear that climate is so locked in Essos too).

But if you don't have reason from the climate that reigns your agricultural process, why to actually "invent" the year as a time measure?

I can't quote chapter and verse but GRRM apparently answered this one by saying that the years are reckoned astronomically.

The way some of us figured it way back in Heresy is that there are ordinary seasons each year, which govern the sowing, planting, reaping and so on, but these are governed by "great seasons". During a Long Winter spring will be short and tempestuous, summers will be short and wet, autumns miserable and winters awful. During a Long Summer the winters will be short and mild, Spring will be glorious, Summer will be hot and parched and Autumn golden.

[mediterraneo]

I can't quote chapter and verse but GRRM apparently answered this one by saying that the years are reckoned astronomically.

The way some of us figured it way back in Heresy is that there are ordinary seasons each year, which govern the sowing, planting, reaping and so on, but these are governed by "great seasons". During a Long Winter spring will be short and tempestuous, summers will be short and wet, autumns miserable and winters awful. During a Long Summer the winters will be short and mild, Spring will be glorious, Summer will be hot and parched and Autumn golden.

Fast and informative, I like this as always!

[Lady Dragon]

Black Crow & Heretics ~ :bowdown:

I would appreciate your feedback on post #61 in this thread about my crackpot theory of the COTF being Greek Dryads (wood nymphs).

It seems my post was overlooked amidst the shuffle of other more exciting topics! :ohwell:

[Urrax]

Black Crow & Heretics ~ :bowdown:

I would appreciate your feedback on post #61 in this thread about my crackpot theory of the COTF being Greek Dryads (wood nymphs).

It seems my post was overlooked amidst the shuffle of other more exciting topics! :ohwell:

I think your suggestion that the dryads were GRRM's major inspiration for the CotF is a shrewd one and probably right. As to your further conjectures, most of them seem possible but there is simply not enough information to make a judgment one way or the other. (I doubt, though, that the Pact would have included human sacrifice.)

[Black Crow]

Black Crow & Heretics ~ :bowdown:

I would appreciate your feedback on post #61 in this thread about my crackpot theory of the COTF being Greek Dryads (wood nymphs).

It seems my post was overlooked amidst the shuffle of other more exciting topics! :ohwell:

Trouble with such a fast moving thread I'm afraid.

I liked your past at the time, and I don't recall we've specifically discussed Dryads in this context. There certainly seem to be some points of similarity and in particular the significance of the destruction of trees and yes, as Bran's vision appears to show there is at least a case for arguing that the Pact required sacrifices.

I have to disagree however about the Children being female. Although Leaf has a relatively prominent role, there do appear to be both sexes down there in the cave and Maester Luwin mentions that both hunted. From time to time we've puzzled over the Wood Dancers and although we still don't know I'd say our best guess is that the Wood Dancers are certainly the warriors and perhaps all of the Children who aren't greenseers.

On the whole I'd say this is another instance of GRRM drawing upon but not slavishly replicating traditions, ie; they share a number of characteristics with Dryads but are not Dryads since they also display traits and characteristics of Celtic Faerie folk, just as GRRM has likened the White Walkers to the Sidhe and Hescox has drawn upon imagery of those Sidhe known as the Wild Hunt.

[Black Crow]

"A chattering crow lives out nine generations of aged men, but a stag's life is four times a crow's and a raven's life makes three stags old, while the Phoenix outlives nine ravens, but we, the rich-haired Nymphai, daughters of Zeus the aigis-holder, outlive ten phoenixes." Hesiod, The Precepts of Chiron Fragment 3 (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or 7th BC)

I'm intrigued by this bit suggesting crows and ravens live much longer than men.

This could explain that bit in the cave where Bran goes flying and realises there is the shadow of a long dead singer in the crow he is skinchanging.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Black Crow & Heretics ~ :bowdown:

I would appreciate your feedback on post #61 in this thread about my crackpot theory of the COTF being Greek Dryads (wood nymphs).

It seems my post was overlooked amidst the shuffle of other more exciting topics! :ohwell:

I wasn't able to read your post. Sorry.

As Black Crow said, there are references about the CotF's sexes, Others too (Night's Queen). It's very likely that Dryads were subjects of some inspiration

[Lord Ravenstark]

I'm intrigued by this bit suggesting crows and ravens live much longer than men.

This could explain that bit in the cave where Bran goes flying and realises there is the shadow of a long dead singer in the crow he is skinchanging.

It could xplain why a CotF would choose a raven as their second life. I've found that crows can live up to 20 years, and the oldest one was 59 when it died but the oldest in wild was 30. The common Raven can live 10-15 years, and found something about one being 21. I also found something we already knew: in many places ravens were seen as spiritual figures or even gods... In Ireland, Scandinavia... Even in Siberia and North America.

[wolfmaid7]

We have discussed this dance with me invitation before, and comparisons have been drawn with Sansa's snowflake communion. Wolfmaid is of the opinion that Jon received his communion when Othor (deceased) rammed his hand into Jon's throat, but given the Sansa parallel I'm more inclined to look at the snowflakes which tempt him, and that by this means the cold he feels is not the proximity of Craster's boys but his taking of that communion and receiving Winter inside him.

If so, its important because if we turn to the Ice Dragon its having Winter inside her which allows Adara to feel no cold and so interact with the dragon - something which would be rather necessary if Jon is to venture northwards into the Land of Always Winter. There would presumably be a price and Coldhands may already have paid it.

This is something i compare to in Paganism: Initiation,invitation and invocation.The scene that played out LC Mormont's solar was so odd it really jumped out. I admit the red part is a bit ambiguous to me,i don't know if Othor released Jon because he was done,or because Ghost bit him.But what Othor did imo is akin to a communion/initiation though forced. I just felt he could have gone about killing Jon more easily than shoving his had down his throat Eye to eye he held Jon hand in mouth as if force feeding him.

When he opened his mouth to scream, the wight jammed its black corpse fingers into Jo n's mouth. Gagging, he tried to shove it off, but the dead man was too heavy. Its hand forced itself farther down his throat, icy cold, choking him. Its face was against his own, filling the world. Frost covered its eyes, sparkling blue. Jon raked cold flesh with his nails and kicked at the thing's legs. He tried to bite, tried to punch, tried to breathe . . . And suddenly the corpse's weight was gone, its fingers ripped from his throat. It was all Jon could do to roll over, retching and shaking. Ghost had it again. He watched as the direwolf buried his teeth in the wight's gut and began to rip and tear. He watched, only half conscious, for a long moment before he finally remembered to look for his sword . . .agot,Jon,pg.497 electronic.

The invitation i believe took place with the hold "Dance with me anon". Beyond the wall Jon's eyes were open to sea the magic of Winter. The hold snow flake forming and covering leaves etc things that he found to be beautiful.

I see the stabbing and Jon's subsequent feeling of the Cold to be that of an invocation,he called Ghost's name the vestibule i see as the Old God's then he felt the Cold.Prelude to my Jon/Frozen fire theory.

Here's my take on how that magic could kick in, if it is not Mel that saves that is.

Since wolfmaid and I seem to be the only ones to believe that the Cold is what's responsible for raising the wights I am going to go on and say that it agree with Lynn and others that opt for the Cold rather shock accounting for Jon's numbness and the smoke coming from his wounds.

While it will sound contradictory to what addicted and I have been arguing about, I will say that the only way in which a 'dead' skinchanger can move once again out of his second life is if his body is animated. Like Lord R says and the text says, the gift is with the body of the skinchanger.

I believe that is what happened with Coldhands and why he still has all those ravens following him around. They are his rangers like Bran believes and that's how he knows they are being pursued. With him and what might be significant to Jon is that he over comes the influence of whatever that blue light is.

Nice! Could this be the invitation to dance with control of his soul perhaps?

I agree with you ,the Cold has reached the Wall,its just hard to pinpoint exactly how Jon will play into that.