Heresy 81

[Lord Ravenstark]

I would say that all the Starks are skinchangers whether they progress beyond their wolves or not. Since they all have direwolves as their partners that makes them wargs. GRRM said all wargs are skinchangers but not all skinchangers are wargs. Which to me means something like all sopranos are singer but not all singers are sopranos. Within smaller groups of people we have refining labels which reflect their individual affinity. So a chorus/choir == skinchangers and the member soprano = warg.

ETA

But Yes I agree they should probably not be put up on a pedestal for others to admire on how to do a thing. The are bumbling their way through this the best they can.

I think you didn't understood. I said that Starks skinchangers are naturally powerful among skinchangers and Bran being naturally powerful the Starks skinchangers. Them all warged in their wolves without even trying, Bran skinchanged in weirwoods and at least one person. Since them were the first skinchangers we've met, it made skinchanging look something easy. Them we've meet more skinchangers, learning that not everything is that easy.

[Black Crow]

I rather like the notion of Mel being responsible for the Pink letter, but I don't necessarily think that if so its also related to the stabbing. This story from start to finish has been littered with cunning plans going badly wrong and in general is a tale of unintended consequences.

If we look at the circumstances, Jon is proposing to take a substantial part of the Watch out on another great ranging all the way to Hardhome. Mel isn't keen; that vision of hers showed caves, towers by the sea being overwhelmed etc, lots of skulls around Jon Snow. Whether she's reading the tealeaves properly or not its pretty reasonable to infer that going to Hardhome could be a baaad idea, especially if she is correctly identifying the malcontents nearer to home.

So, if she has written the letter, its most likely a cunning wheeze to persuade him to stay where he is. What she doesn't bargain for is Jon setting up for King in the North and rallying the wildlings to his banner, thus provoking Marsh and Co into doing something silly.

[LynnS]

We have seen Marsh in particular but also Yarwyck complain, protest and try to disuade through reason and conversation from pursing different courses of action that they disapprove of for chapters. The increasing gulf of incomprehension between Jon and his officers is a theme of his arc throughout ADWD. It is not something sudden that pops up out of nowhere in Jon XIII (or indeed John 13 if we want to go out on the Golden Bough) and they have by that point in teh story exhausted more reasonable alternatives at dealing with Jon.

I would say it is not possible for Borroq to control wunwun and be responsible for the mayhem precisely because we have seen Bran warging Hodor! The one thing that we learn from Bran attempting to warg Hodor from ASOS to ADWD is that it is incredibly difficult and takes a long time to gain control - ie prolonged attempts over months if not over a year. Again we have the ADWD prologue to back this up. Varamyr was a powerful warg but he can't just leap in and take over an adult's consciousness. Note that we don't see the yard of Castle Black full of dozens of people squrming and trying to scratch out their own eyes either.

Nor is Wun Wun simply a gentle giant. We know that he is disturbed to rage by the sight of weapons from when Jon led out a party to the weirwood grove to swear the night's watch oath and they discovered Wun Wun and a few other wildlings in ADWD. One of the amusing things in the situation is that Jon precipates the crisis by telling Ser Patrick that wildling women need to be stolen to win them...which he then tries to do with Val.

Yes I agree that Borroq could not be the agent behind Jon's stabbing. After giving thought to what that should look like.

And Jon has been the subject of animosity for some time; with various members of the NW conspiring in one manner or another, notably Janos Slynt, Allister Thorne and the conspiracy at Craster's Keep. Jon has put himself out on a limb inviting attack. So far, all have failed, I think primarily because it wasn't time for Jon to be sacrificed. I'm not sure that Mel is devious enough to engineer Jon's stabbing since his wounds are mortal and I don't know if that's an outcome that she would want. But it's interesting to think about. Whereas men of the NW killing their LC is as much a failure on their part and circles back to the stories of the Night Fort.

There is still a strangeness to the manner in which Jon is attacked that defies explanation. As Jon says "Night falls and now my war begins." I think there is an agency at work but I can't pinpoint it. I have noticed in many of the inner monologues of key characters. Something that I call "second voice"; a voice that prods characters to specific conclusions or to take decisions. I mean to go through the books and make a collection of them but I keep diverting to other stuff. It reminds me of characterizations of Varys; that his tongue was like a lash.

I ponder the similarity between Jon's Dream and Tyrion's Dream:

That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees.

"Stand fast," Jon Snow called. "Throw them back." He stood atop the Wall, alone. "Flame," he cried, "feed them flame," but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. The have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen, scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she appeared.

The world dissolved into red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled...

...and woke with the raven pecking at his chest.

Are we getting a glimpse of Jon's battle frenzy in the aftermath of his stabbing.

[Lord Ravenstark]

I rather like the notion of Mel being responsible for the Pink letter, but I don't necessarily think that if so its also related to the stabbing. This story from start to finish has been littered with cunning plans going badly wrong and in general is a tale of unintended consequences.

If we look at the circumstances, Jon is proposing to take a substantial part of the Watch out on another great ranging all the way to Hardhome. Mel isn't keen; that vision of hers showed caves, towers by the sea being overwhelmed etc, lots of skulls around Jon Snow. Whether she's reading the tealeaves properly or not its pretty reasonable to infer that going to Hardhome could be a baaad idea, especially if she is correctly identifying the malcontents nearer to home.

So, if she has written the letter, its most likely a cunning wheeze to persuade him to stay where he is. What she doesn't bargain for is Jon setting up for King in the North and rallying the wildlings to his banner, thus provoking Marsh and Co into doing something silly.

If Mel knew that much, why would she let Stannis ride to his death? And, why she would even play with the idea of Stannis' death?

[LynnS]

At some point along the way - as I was researching Patchface - I came across this: Harlequin-type Ichthyosis.

I wonder if Patchface is keeping Shireen's greyscale in check, under control? I wonder what would happen if Patchface were to disappear? If he were killed, or driven away - if he and Shireen were separated?

Oh my word! Addicted might be onto something here with Dany's son. Does this not fit the description? Who would take charge or have the authority to take the boy if it isn't the crones of the Dosh Khaleen. Interesting idea about Patchface keeping Shireen's greyscale in check! I like it..

[LynnS]

The wounds however, and I not thought of it quite this way before, could be a different point of ingress. I thought that Jon breathed in the cold and that his core temp had already dropped which is why they smoked like dry ice does. But if you look at from another angle they could be tendrils of white mist snaking their way into him and shifting as he shifts.

Now the thing I see with the communion in this is that it's not so much an invitation as implant. Can an initiation be forced? I suppose it can.

I'm not sure what I think about Othor ramming his hand down Jon's throat. Something tells me that if his arm wasn't hacked off that he would be strangling Jon about the throat in the same way the Will is attacked by Waymar and Sam by Small Paul (and oddly the way Cersei dreams of her jalonqar). I don't know if this was a communion or not. I have been looking for a passage I came across in Jon's POV where he finds himself somewhere in Castle Black and doesn't know how he got there. I'll see if I can find it today.

[LynnS]

I rather like the notion of Mel being responsible for the Pink letter, but I don't necessarily think that if so its also related to the stabbing. This story from start to finish has been littered with cunning plans going badly wrong and in general is a tale of unintended consequences.

If we look at the circumstances, Jon is proposing to take a substantial part of the Watch out on another great ranging all the way to Hardhome. Mel isn't keen; that vision of hers showed caves, towers by the sea being overwhelmed etc, lots of skulls around Jon Snow. Whether she's reading the tealeaves properly or not its pretty reasonable to infer that going to Hardhome could be a baaad idea, especially if she is correctly identifying the malcontents nearer to home.

So, if she has written the letter, its most likely a cunning wheeze to persuade him to stay where he is. What she doesn't bargain for is Jon setting up for King in the North and rallying the wildlings to his banner, thus provoking Marsh and Co into doing something silly.

That is the most sensible conclusion. LOL!

[wolfmaid7]

I'm not sure what I think about Othor ramming his hand down Jon's throat. Something tells me that if his arm wasn't hacked off that he would be strangling Jon about the throat in the same way the Will is attacked by Waymar and Sam by Small Paul (and oddly the way Cersei dreams of her jalonqar). I don't know if this was a communion or not. I have been looking for a passage I came across in Jon's POV where he finds himself somewhere in Castle Black and doesn't know how he got there. I'll see if I can find it today.

With the strength he had he could have accomplish strangling Jon with one hand around the neck. It evokes that scene with Thistle she sucked down that fridgid air then it was bye bye Thistle and hello crazy woman .

Not saying that the intent wasn't to kill Jon at that point I'm pretty sure the Wight was going to . If not for Mormonts Raven and Ghost Jon would be dead . I think it was imperative that though touched he would survive.

I think that intimate encounter with the Wights was important.I think something ( winter ) was imparted to Jon he was fortunate in that he did not die

[#Fire and Blood]

Just read an interesting post about an unexpected outcome of the battle for ice.

What if during Stannis battle with Ramsey the Others show up with a massive army of wights! We have seen major snow storms in WF during the chapters that lead up to the battle.

The wall very well may be a great warded barrier, but what if they can totally bypass it by going around through Hardhome? Bodies in the water could easily wash around the wall and land on the shores below the wall.

Or, better yet they just start to pour out of the crypts in Winterfell.

Plus, if Wolfmaids theory is correct about the Cold, what would stop that entity from making its way progressively south?

This would move the story along very well and finally get the attention of the Westeros people and change up the story!

[Black Crow]

I think that intimate encounter with the Wights was important.I think something ( winter ) was imparted to Jon he was fortunate in that he did not die

Fortunate yes, but perhaps if he did die Coldhands might have had a brother :devil:

[GoldenVale]

I'm not convinced that Othor's touch did anything. If Jon was the target why not just attack him with the group that found the bodies? And Jon almost died in that encounter, if the intention wasn't to kill him but just touch then the way they went about it was just odd. Not to mention that all that cloak and dagger combined with one intended target suggest a quality of purpose we haven't seen in wights before (with the exception of Coldhands who is different).

If "Winter" has been imparted to Jon why hasn't he changed? What is 'winter"? What does it do? Why him? Why do it then? If it's in him what else has to happen now? For me it just raises way to many questions.

[Black Crow]

:agree:

...which is why my money's on the snowflake.

As to what taking the cold inside him will do, if that's truly what's happening as he goes down, I still reckon that Adara provides the model and shows what having Winter inside him can do. I know Adara "grew up" by becoming warm after the Ice Dragon died, but Jon has yet to escape through the forest to the Land of Always Winter.

And with that, good night all.

[wolfmaid7]

I'm not convinced that Othor's touch did anything. If Jon was the target why not just attack him with the group that found the bodies? And Jon almost died in that encounter, if the intention wasn't to kill him but just touch then the way they went about it was just odd. Not to mention that all that cloak and dagger combined with one intended target suggest a quality of purpose we haven't seen in wights before (with the exception of Coldhands who is different).

If "Winter" has been imparted to Jon why hasn't he changed? What is 'winter"? What does it do? Why him? Why do it then? If it's in him what else has to happen now? For me it just raises way to many questions.

Ah yes you misunderstand my meaning . What I'm saying is that Jon surviving what happen would prove useful. I believe had it not been for Ghost and the Raven Jon would be dead, or Othor and Jaffa may never have come in contact with Jon had it not been for Ghost, for Jon would have still been sleeping in his cell.

If Ghost wasn't there with Jon in the first place in the cell he probably would have woken up to a lot if ruckus on the walk ,with them finding Mormont dead but he would be a live .

I'm saying plot wise it was important to have that initiation for the fact that he would and should survive it . Othor IMO was trying to do something but not because he was targeting Jon specifically but because Jon was the person in his way at the time .

It is the fact that he survived that is the point .I think he was " touched" . He after that initial attack was able to recognize the sensual components the next time he did . One the fist the same queer smell and feel he liken to that attack.

In his stabbing he didnt feel cold he felt " the cold " because IMHO he felt it twice before.

[wolfmaid7]

:agree:

...which is why my money's on the snowflake.

As to what taking the cold inside him will do, if that's truly what's happening as he goes down, I still reckon that Adara provides the model and shows what having Winter inside him can do. I know Adara "grew up" by becoming warm after the Ice Dragon died, but Jon has yet to escape through the forest to the Land of Always Winter.

And with that, good night all.

I'm going to go into crackpot territory again as I stated Jon encounter though terrible could be a important " accident" had it not been for Ghost he probably still would have been sleeping in his cell . The wights killed his guard then moved on so he wasn't the target or a threat .

He became that the moment Ghost woke him up and led him to Mormonts tower, and the moment the raven went bat shit crazy when Jon walked in alerting him .

The peculiar action wasn't that of Orhor but Ghost and the raven.

I'm not sure had he died he would be like CH's , if Jon is also a Dragonseed it may complicate things. That's for another theory which I should really get on .

[addicted to snow]

As per the ADWDs prologue, whenever warts die a true death, the last thing they feel is the cold before finding their way to the appropriate animal. We know that Jon is a Warg & that the last thing he felt was the cold.

Jon is dead, no count about it… At least until someone trained in Ashai decides to bring him back to life… Hmm, do we know anyone like that with in close proximity to the wall?

The clues are all there, the precedence is all there, no need to look further or contrive crazy theories, it is all spelled out for us.

[wolfmaid7]

As per the ADWDs prologue, whenever warts die a true death, the last thing they feel is the cold before finding their way to the appropriate animal. We know that Jon is a Warg & that the last thing he felt was the cold.

Jon is dead, no count about it… At least until someone trained in Ashai decides to bring him back to life… Hmm, do we know anyone like that with in close proximity to the wall?

The clues are all there, the precedence is all there, no need to look further or contrive crazy theories, it is all spelled out for us.

I have to disagree with you on your statement that when a warg dies they feel "the cold" that is incorrect in how you are defining it . We have had POV characters like Kevan who report feeling cold like ice.However when you add an article in front you are drawing specificity and uniqueness.

Therefore,to say that only Wargs feel cold is incorrect,what is being singled out is a different kind of cold that warrants that specificity.The cold that killed V6 was un-natural.

Jon is a toss up he may or may not be dead,and him feeling "the cold" could be its proximity to the wall. He is dying for sure,but he whether through force or acceptance may have already accepted "the cold".

[addicted to snow]

I have to disagree with you on your statement that when a warg dies they feel "the cold" that is incorrect in how you are defining it . We have had POV characters like Kevan who report feeling cold like ice.However when you add an article in front you are drawing specificity and uniqueness.

Therefore,to say that only Wargs feel cold is incorrect,what is being singled out is a different kind of cold that warrants that specificity.The cold that killed V6 was un-natural.

Jon is a toss up he may or may not be dead,and him feeling "the cold" could be its proximity to the wall. He is dying for sure,but he whether through force or acceptance may have already accepted "the cold".

That situation is totally different… Kevan was cold before he died due to blood-loss / shock.

I do not see how Jon accepting or not accepting "the cold" has any bearing on the process of his 'true death' as a warg.

[wolfmaid7]

That situation is totally different… Kevan was cold before he died due to blood-loss / shock.

I do not see how Jon accepting or not accepting "the cold" has any bearing on the process of his 'true death' as a warg.

So was V6,he had suffered severe blood loss from the bone knife wound, which was my point in bringing it up .While he was back at Thistle he stated he was feeling cold on the inside a chill that clung to his lung,that how he knew he was dying.He was also feverish indicated by snow melting on him and that melting snow let him know that on the outside he was feverish.

My point was under the same conditions being stabbed and blood loss the same symptoms happen, its no different be it Warg or regular man.

In addition,we have no idea if Jon is dead and we have nothing pass the initial statement of feeling "the cold" he maybe dead or he might be clinging to life for a while bleeding out on the ground.

[LynnS]

I have to disagree with you on your statement that when a warg dies they feel "the cold" that is incorrect in how you are defining it . We have had POV characters like Kevan who report feeling cold like ice.However when you add an article in front you are drawing specificity and uniqueness.

Therefore,to say that only Wargs feel cold is incorrect,what is being singled out is a different kind of cold that warrants that specificity.The cold that killed V6 was un-natural.

Jon is a toss up he may or may not be dead,and him feeling "the cold" could be its proximity to the wall. He is dying for sure,but he whether through force or acceptance may have already accepted "the cold".

I can accept Sansa's snowflake communion and perhaps Bran's baptism at the Black Gate; but I still think Othor is a bit iffy and I'm not sure that Jon has been touched by winter at this point. But I do think that Jon has been blessed. In the sense that a blessing purifies or sanctifies an object or vessel; or confers on a person a connection with the Holy Spirit; confers on them to ability to see or behold visions.

From wiki:

A blessing, (also used to refer to bestowing of such) is the infusion of something with holiness, spiritual redemption, divine will, or one's hope or approval.

The blessing is given by touching or marking the person on the forehead. This has happened to Jon in ACOK.

A Weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a thin sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he cicrled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth, and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

And then Jon is transported for the first time and can see the land and wildlings from above. At this point Jon still doesn't realize that he is a warg. But he has been transformed by Bran's touch.

ETA: I'll also add a thought about Jon finding the dragonglass. I think the real significance is not so much who put it there; but that the Pact has been renewed through Jon. He describes the sentinel trees:

The trees stood beneath him, warriors armored in bark and leaf, deployed in their silent ranks awaiting the command to storm the hill.

[wolfmaid7]

I can accept Sansa's snowflake communion and perhaps Bran's baptism at the Black Gate; but I still think Othor is a bit iffy and I'm not sure that Jon has been touched by winter at this point. But I do think that Jon has been blessed. In the sense that a blessing purifies or sanctifies an object or vessel; or confers on a person a connection with the Holy Spirit; confers on them to ability to see or behold visions.

From wiki:

A blessing, (also used to refer to bestowing of such) is the infusion of something with holiness, spiritual redemption, divine will, or one's hope or approval.

The blessing is given by touching or marking the person on the forehead. This has happened to Jon in ACOK.

A Weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a thin sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he cicrled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth, and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

And then Jon is transported for the first time and can see the land and wildlings from above. At this point Jon still doesn't realize that he is a warg. But he has been transformed by Bran's touch.

ETA: I'll also add a thought about Jon finding the dragonglass. I think the real significance is not so much who put it there; but that the Pact has been renewed through Jon. He describes the sentinel trees:

The trees stood beneath him, warriors armored in bark and leaf, deployed in their silent ranks awaiting the command to storm the hill.

I'm not saying that what Othor did was meant as a blessing of any sort,not at all. Why i use the following and as far as initiation goes, at times it can be involuntary.In some cults such as the Malia,initiation was by disease sent to an intended. To be seen as blessed was to overcome the disease.That was how these worshipers were seen as being blessed by the gods because they overcame and were changed.

In some others that are darker in nature, i will not mention,initiation took place as rape which was said to transfer a "spirit" to the intended.Their would be a battle lasting days before the initiate came out or not "touched" and changed in some way.It is after this experience does the veil come off the eyes and one sees anew.

​While the alternative BC has brought up is beautiful and appeals to my girly nature,i'm presenting a more darker aspect that could have been "presented" to Jon not evil but darker.

I've stated that i believe when it comes to his arc, imo Jon is on the left hand path,an aspect of Magik and the path of the Morrigan reserved for initiates that are on her anti path.In the initiation the person is marked ( Jon burning his hand in that fight) and all roads and decisions taken have been left handed basically anti the status quo.i.e Jon. also note to incarnation of the Morrigan were present for this.

1. Forced communion( Othor's hand in his mouth)

2. Branding (burning of hand)

3. Trip beyond the wall starts noticing the beauty of winter.(veil from eyes removed)