Heresy 54

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 54, this week’s edition of the thread that looks below the surface of the Song of Ice and Fire.

It is called Heresy because although primarily interested with what’s happening up north we reject the assumption that the sole threat to Westeros comes from the Others. This is the Song of Ice and Fire, and the Otherlanders are just one side of that conflict.

Thus we question the easy assumptions (amongst others) that Bloodraven is manipulating everything, that the Others are evil incarnate, that the Children of the Forest will teach Bran Stark how to defeat them, that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai, and that he will ride one of Dany’s amazing dragons before taking his place alongside her on the Iron Throne as Jon Targaryen First of his Name.

Instead, prompted by the wealth of clues, Easter eggs and cookies which litter the text, we look at the mythological sources which underpin the magic in the story, especially around and beyond the Wall, leading us through the Arthurian Legends, the Welsh Mabinogion, the Irish Tain bo Culaidh and the Norse Eddas amongst others, to discover Bran the Blessed, Tam Lin, Cu Chulainn, Herne the Hunter and above all the Morrigan – the Crow Goddess, associated with death and exhibiting three human aspects as maiden, mother and crone.

A major influence has been this statement by GRRM: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

That Sidhe reference is not only apposite since what is known of the Otherlanders’ behaviour certainly corresponds to Faerie legend portraying them as beautiful but cruel, given to hunting maidens through the woods and to taking human children as changelings, per Craster’s sons, but its also significant that GRRM describes them as being made of Ice, because that exactly mirrors what we’ve discovered of Mel, Moqorro and Victarion, revealing all three as being Fire made flesh, exactly equal to and opposite those protagonists of Ice – the Otherlanders and their mysterious symbols.

And then there’s the Wall, which is not a defensive structure at all but the boundary between the Realms of Men and the Otherlands beyond. Raised by and maintained by great magics (and not improbably the cause of the Long Night) and so, we suspect, this magic Wall must come down to achieve a resolution and restore the balance of the seasons and everything else, for to quote Janet Clouston: “Blood built it, Blood stopped the building of it, and Blood will bring it down”

In doing that, Jon (apparently soon to be found being pursued alone through a forest near you) seems destined to bridle the Ice as King of Winter, while Danaerys Targaryen, once tipped as his partner, may instead have to go back – to where the Targaryens and their dragons came from - into the smoke and salt of the Smoking Sea of Valyria to sort out the Fire.

All of these theories are just that and matters of controversy rather tenets of faith. We think we’re reaching a better understanding of what’s really going on, but as heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot which is what makes this thread cycle so much fun, but we do reckon that the Starks’ role in all of this is a lot darker and more ambiguous than once it seemed and that the children are not so cuddly as they pretend.

We’ve long since given up providing links to previous heresies since it moves so damn quickly, but in honour of the occasion Heresy 50 contained a series of essays looking at a number of topics in more detail.

http://asoiaf.wester...4200-heresy-50/

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction, but if after reading the essays you want to go deeper, King Tyrion has kindly compiled this set of references

How It All Started:

The Wall, The Watch and A Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...h-and-a-heresy/

Complete Old Nan's Tales:

Heresy 6: http://asoiaf.wester...61905-heresy-6/

Others= Sidhe made of ice email and resulting discussion:

Heresy 10-13: http://asoiaf.wester...60#entry4427128

Extensive Timeline Discussion:

Heresy 14-23: http://asoiaf.wester...60#entry4427128

Reed Oath and several topics:

Heresy 29-34: http://asoiaf.wester...60#entry4427128

The Black Gate:

Heresy 41+ Heresy 42 (The Black Watch edition): http://asoiaf.wester...60#entry4427128

If you’re new, or simply intimidated by the sheer scale of it all, not to mention the astonishing speed with which it moves, and wonder what we’re talking about and why we’ve come to these peculiar ideas, just ask. We’re friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

All that we ask as ever is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Just gonna repost the last few relevant posts from 53:

It occurs to me, in one of those blinding flashes that occurs from time to time, that ultimately Azor Ahai (whoever he or she might turn out to be) is being paraded as the champion of R'hllor, the Lord of Light and of Fire.

We've established that the agents of Fire; Mel, Moqorro and unwittingly Victarion, are themselves Fire made Flesh. Does it not follow therefore that their champion Azor Ahai must in turn be "reborn" as Fire made Flesh, and that simply tapping the chosen one on the shoulder, handing over a flaming sword and telling him or her to go out and fight the good fight isn't enough.

Would all those who are so keen to promote say Jon as Azor Ahai reborn would be quite so keen if they realised it meant turning him into a fire demon?

The one thing that makes me trepidacious about going in the AAR = Fire Made Flesh route is that the original AA was a known dragonslayer; as such, it would make since for his "reincarnated" form to also be a dragonslayer. Outside of a FMF somehow coming to control a dragon and thus engage in a Dance of Dragons that results in at least one of Dany's trio getting killed, I don't see a FMF slaying any dragons.

Now, to that point, IF AAR is indeed a FMF, in order to keep with the tradition of AA having been a dragonslayer, the person who is currently in the best position to fulfill all these requirements is Victarion.

So, yes, putting it out there: Victarion is Azor Ahai Reborn???? :dunno:

EDIT: spell

I'm not into the idea that Azor Ahai MUST be Fire made flesh.

BC, I think you got it when you said Dany will be Azor Ahai by being reborn in salt and smoke when she traverses the Smoking Sea and goes to Valyria.

But with that crowd we do have some possibilities. Vic is Fire made flesh so he could become Azor Ahai while going to Valyria with Dany. Or maybe Marwyn is the one that convinces Dany to go to Valyria and maybe he knows a way to make her Fire made flesh without her dying.

All things are possible and Marwyn certainly has some kind of role to play here, although as we've been discussing the transformation into Fire made Flesh seems to involve live subjects rather than dead ones, doesn't obviously kill them in the process, and appears to leave them oblivious to just how much they have changed.

Dany seems a perfect candidate, and arguably she may need to turn in order to survive long enough in Valyria to do what she has to do. Similarly if the Land of Always Winter is as unhospitable as its cracked up to be, then Jon might need to turn in order to go up there.

:commie: :commie: :commie: :commie:

[King Tyrion VIII]

:commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie:

[Marmelodov]

Hello all new here. I do not believe bloodraven is the 3-eyed crow; based on his conversation with Bran. When asked he admits to only being at one point a member of the nights watch.

Since the majority appears to believe bloodraven is indeed the 3-eyed crow does that then make me a heretic?

[Joken79]

I don't know if this is my own thought or if it occured some threads ago but speaking of mirroring ice and fire we have the interest of Melissandre in King's blood, also strengthened by the fact that it plays a role in the TV show (Gendry taking the role of Edric Storm).

Melisandre is convinced that great magic can be performed through King's blood ("wake the stone dragon").

On the side of ice we haven't seen this yet, at least not in direct form.

Perhaps something about Craster and his sons might somehow fit into it.

Someone needs the boys!

Assuming that King's blood has great power and great magic can be performed through it

or King's blood is even the requirement to perform great magic, it might be that

magic events like the building of the Wall required King's blood or even

the sacrifice of a King.

Didn't Ygritte say something about blood was involved in the creation of the wall?

What do you think?

[Tyryan Lannister]

Hello all new here. I do not believe bloodraven is the 3-eyed crow; based on his conversation with Bran. When asked he admits to only being at one point a member of the nights watch.

Since the majority appears to believe bloodraven is indeed the 3-eyed crow does that then make me a heretic?

It makes you in line with some Heretical ideas... dive into some of the linked threads from BC's intro and see if you agree with the discussions (in particular the ones from H30-Present--almost everything that we had discussed prior to H30 has since been brought up into discussion again at least once, plus some new insights into those things. In particular dive into H50 which opened with a bunch of essays related to the Core Heresies

[Tyryan Lannister]

I don't know if this is my own thought or if it occured some threads ago but speaking of mirroring ice and fire we have the interest of Melissandre in King's blood, also strengthened by the fact that it plays a role in the TV show (Gendry taking the role of Edric Storm).

Melisandre is convinced that great magic can be performed through King's blood ("wake the stone dragon").

On the side of ice we haven't seen this yet, at least not in direct form.

Perhaps something about Craster and his sons might somehow fit into it.

Someone needs the boys!

Assuming that King's blood has great power and great magic can be performed through it

or King's blood is even the requirement to perform great magic, it might be that

magic events like the building of the Wall required King's blood or even

the sacrifice of a King.

Didn't Ygritte say something about blood was involved in the creation of the wall?

What do you think?

We actually have yet to see a definitive case of where king's blood (as opposed to just a regular blood sacrifice) was needed for any magic. But, yes, blood sacrifices in and of themselves likely were involved in the Wall and many other Northern magicks.

[Joken79]

We actually have yet to see a definitive case of where king's blood (as opposed to just a regular blood sacrifice) was needed for any magic. But, yes, blood sacrifices in and of themselves likely were involved in the Wall and many other Northern magicks.

We know of human sacrifices of Melisandre, burning them as a sacrifice for R'hllor.

She seems very interested in King's blood, at least she is convinced of its power.

But you are right, we haven't seen a definitive case where it is needed for magic.

[Hrafntýr]

Re: King's blood: there was some speculation in an earlier Heresy thread about the First Night tradition, which, although I don't think it's the primary purpose of this tradition, has the effect of producing bastards of noble houses. This, in combination with the view that bastard babies should be thrown down a well and the strange form that the Night's Gate takes (namely a well, with wells serving this function at numerous sites in the British Isles, though generally of animal, not human sacrifice) caused some to speculate that perhaps there might be a ritual element of the sacrifice of noble-born bastards, which could imply that noble blood makes a difference. But there's not much in the way of evidence to support this view. Mel's really the only one who seems to have this view. Though, didn't some Targaryen or Targaryens attempt to birth dragons through some sort of self-sacrifice; sorry, I can't remember which Targaryen(s) this involves, but isn't there something along these lines?

[Black Crow]

Its all snobbery. If you want to work great magic you need a great man (or woman); some snotty-nosed peasant brat with dirt in its fingernails and crap between its toes really won't do at all. As for bastards they're inconvenient and therefore expendable.

[Black Crow]

Didn't Ygritte say something about blood was involved in the creation of the wall?

Did indeed, which is why I quote Janet Clouston in the OP - she also said that the Wall is evil.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Aerion Brightflame attempted to become a dragon by drinking wildfire.

[firepoet]

It might simply be intent. A lot of pagan sacrifices were about giving up something that was valuable to you as a way of showing thanks. Someone sacrificing blood belonging to someone that they personally view as a King, might be enough to make the blood magical even if the person has no legitimate claim to any thrones. Their value of the blood is what gives it its power. But I'm not sure if there's anything in the text to back that up.

[wolfmaid7]

Hi Guys:

This is going to be a long one,but i believe it ties into why Kings blood is of such an import. Irish myths contain the idea of sacred marriage: the ritual union of the goddess of the land, the earth itself, with the mortal king. This meant that on his inauguration, the king entered into a sacred partnership with the Spirit of the land. The union with the goddess legitimized his rule and gave him sovereignty, allowing the land to prosper.

The goddess would only enter this marriage if the king was suitable, and even after marriage, she could reject a weak ruler in favor of a man who was better for the land's well-being.

She therefore validated a king’s rule, and was the symbol of the land’s fertility through crops, livestock,good weather and peace.

In Celtic mythology, there is a relation between the ruler and deity, and that of the ruler and the land. The king was wedded in a sacred marriage to the goddess that was supposed to ensure the fertility of the land.

Quite often in ancient religions or myths, the earth and land was often represented by the feminine entities, such as the goddesses, or they were the personification of the land or earth. The goddess of the land often had the attributes of the mother goddess or the fertility goddess. The future fertility and prosperity of the kingdom depends upon the king mating with the sovereignty of the land.

Now from my understanding the first kings of Westeros were the Targs,so they would have become the consort to the magic there,the magic existing there when the COTF roamed what is now called Westeros. However,the Starks have long since been Kings, so each king,then lord already had a geis( bond) to the "gaia" of the North so to speak. There use to be a rep of the goddess over each province. In this case Wardens or Kings of the N,S,E,W.

So if the King consort makes a petition the "gaia" recognizes him because of the marraige that was solidified by him the king spilling his blood for her "the land". So the "gaia" recognizes her lord by his blood because it is the land's connection to her consort King.Therfore, i can see why King's blood is important in these rituals because he is the consort to the land "gaia" I use gaia to speak about the magic of the land or whatever form it chooses.i.e Morrigan

[Tyryan Lannister]

Hi Guys:

This is going to be a long one,but i believe it ties into why Kings blood is of such an import. Irish myths contain the idea of sacred marriage: the ritual union of the goddess of the land, the earth itself, with the mortal king. This meant that on his inauguration, the king entered into a sacred partnership with the Spirit of the land. The union with the goddess legitimized his rule and gave him sovereignty, allowing the land to prosper.

The goddess would only enter this marriage if the king was suitable, and even after marriage, she could reject a weak ruler in favor of a man who was better for the land's well-being.

She therefore validated a king’s rule, and was the symbol of the land’s fertility through crops, livestock,good weather and peace.

In Celtic mythology, there is a relation between the ruler and deity, and that of the ruler and the land. The king was wedded in a sacred marriage to the goddess that was supposed to ensure the fertility of the land.

Quite often in ancient religions or myths, the earth and land was often represented by the feminine entities, such as the goddesses, or they were the personification of the land or earth. The goddess of the land often had the attributes of the mother goddess or the fertility goddess. The future fertility and prosperity of the kingdom depends upon the king mating with the sovereignty of the land.

Now from my understanding the first kings of Westeros were the Targs,so they would have become the consort to the magic there,the magic existing there when the COTF roamed what is now called Westeros. However,the Starks have long since been Kings, so each king,then lord already had a geis( bond) to the "gaia" of the North so to speak. There use to be a rep of the goddess over each province. In this case Wardens or Kings of the N,S,E,W.

So if the King consort makes a petition the "gaia" recognizes him because of the marraige that was solidified by him the king spilling his blood for her "the land". So the "gaia" recognizes her lord by his blood because it is the land's connection to her consort King.Therfore, i can see why King's blood is important in these rituals because he is the consort to the land "gaia" I use gaia to speak about the magic of the land or whatever form it chooses.i.e Morrigan

Hmmm... makes me think that the noble bastard surnames are a hint towards this--in which case it wasn't so much a King of the North, King of the West, etc., but instead King of the:

Ice - North (Snow)

Mountains - Vale (Stone)

Ocean - Iron Islands (Pyke)

Hills/Rolling Plains - Westerlands (Hill)*

Fertile Plains - Reach (Flowers)**

Air/Storms - Stormlands (Storm)

Desert - Dorne (Sand)

With the addenda of:

Islands - Crownlands (Waters)

Rivers - Riverlands (Rivers)

*I feel that the Westerlands are meant to evoke a feeling of Austria, with its rolling hills and gold mines (and ruling family that often wed cousin to cousin)

**As with the Westerlands, I feel that the Reach is mean to evoke France, with its very fertile land and the Fleur-de-Lis being a very important symbol, a la the Tyrell Rose.

ETA: the reason for the Riverlands and Crownlands being set apart is because they were none existent before the Conquest and are therefore made up regions that have no regi-deific ties to the land beneath them.

[wolfmaid7]

Hmmm... makes me think that the noble bastard surnames are a hint towards this--in which case it wasn't so much a King of the North, King of the West, etc., but instead King of the:

Ice - North (Snow)

Mountains - Vale (Stone)

Ocean - Iron Islands (Pyke)

Hills/Rolling Plains - Westerlands (Hill)*

Fertile Plains - Reach (Flowers)**

Air/Storms - Stormlands (Storm)

Desert - Dorne (Sand)

With the addenda of:

Islands - Crownlands (Waters)

Rivers - Riverlands (Rivers)

*I feel that the Westerlands are meant to evoke a feeling of Austria, with its rolling hills and gold mines (and ruling family that often wed cousin to cousin)

**As with the Westerlands, I feel that the Reach is mean to evoke France, with its very fertile land and the Fleur-de-Lis being a very important symbol, a la the Tyrell Rose.

ETA: the reason for the Riverlands and Crownlands being set apart is because they were none existent before the Conquest and are therefore made up regions that have no regi-deific ties to the land beneath them.

My mind did go to the bastards that maybe they were suppose to be the houses gifts to "gaia" so to speak as a consort.There gift of a suitable( if the gods accept) man-child.

[Frey family reunion]

All right, I've been patiently waiting for the Heretics to mention my favorite topic of Azor Ahai. Please bear with me, this is one of the few remaining threads that one can have an intelligent discourse without either inane comments or a constant parade of crackpot catcalls. . I've pondered the possibility for a while that AA and the legend of the forging of his sword might be a bastardized story of how the first dragonrider(s) of the Valyrian Peninsula came about.

The chain of events that lead to the hatching of Dany's eggs made me think that Dany either accidently or through some trigger of her unconscious, was going through the rituals to allow not only the hatching of dragons, but also in hatching dragons that could be ridden and could be bound to the dragonrider.

The first ritual occurred two nights before the hatching. It appeared to be a blood ritual similar to the ritual Moqorro performed on Victarion. It involved the sacrifice of both Dany's unborn son and Drogo's stallion. The morning after her ritual, Dany holds the white and gold egg and feels life stirring within. This is the egg that will hatch Viserion. Not coincidentally, Viserion's egg is the first to hatch in Drogo's funeral pyre.

Now fast forward in time as the dragons get older and their personalities begin to come forth and see how Viserion is described:

"...Viserion flapped at her and tried to perch on her shoulder, as he had when he was smaller. 'No' Dany said, trying to shrug him off gently. 'You're too big for that now, sweetling.'" ASOS Chpt. 23.

Viserion is the dragon that shows affection to Brown Ben, presumably because of his Valyrian bloodline(s).

When Dany makes her trip to the pit, it is Viserion that tries to makes his way to her. Rhaegal apparently makes no such attempt.

When Quentyn tries to steal Dany's dragons, Viserion heads to Pretty Meris sniffing her out, "The woman, Quentyn realized. He knows that she is female. He is looking for Daenerys. He wants his mother and does not understand why she's not here." ADWD the Dragontamer.

I believe that the rituals that hatched the dragons, caused Dany's unborn son, Rhaego to be reborn in his "second life" as Viserion.

Drogon, I believe is Drogo reincarnated. The dragon to show the most wanderlust and independence. Just as Drogo was attracted to the fighting and battles at his wedding, Drogon is attracted to the fighting pits. Drogon is also a protector of Dany, and is drawn back to the Dothraki Sea. This is the dragon that Dany rides. My guess is the emotional bond that Dany and Drogo shared in life is the bond that enables her to ride Drogon now.

Finally, that would leave Rhaegal as MMD. "...where Rhaegal had made his lair hulked in the gloom like a fat woman bedecked with orange jewels". "He wondered, where Rhaegal was. Thus far the green dragon had shown himself to be more dangerous than the white". ADWD The Queen's Hand.

My guess is that the Valyrians made human sacrifices with fire to bond a dragonrider with a dragon. I also think that the human sacrifice had to have an emotional connection to the dragon rider or else the bond would "break" between rider and dragon. The dragon horn was probably used as a substitute to having an actual magical practitioner casting the necessary spells.

I have a feeling that the ancestors to the Dothraki horde were the sources of these sacrifices. I think that this is why Dothraki culture requires the Dothraki's horse to be burned with the Dothraki upon his death. This custom came from the fact that the Dothraki and horse were burned together during the ritual to create a rideable dragon.

My guess is for the sacrifice it was considered a great honor, where they could be reborn as a dragon. This "sacrifice" also needed to have an emotional connection with the intended dragonrider. I believe that they were actually wed to the intended dragonrider.

All of Aegon's dragons had come from Valyria before the doom. The number of dragons did not increase until after the invasion of Westeros. I believe that the loss of the dragonhorn during the Doom probably prevented the Targaryens from creating more dragons. However, by the time of Jaehaerys they had at least six dragons. I think the Targaryens (and more specifically Visenya) came across a witch that was able to perform the necessary magic for the dragon ritual. A wild guess, but the legend of Maegor the cruel executing his wives might have actually been sacrifices for their rituals.

Now what does this have to do with the AA story and lightbringer? I think the oral tale of the forging of lightbringer might actually be a version of how the first dragon rider came about. Breaking of the sword refers to the breaking of the bond between dragon and rider. Breaking it in water might be a reference to attempting to use the people of the Rhoyne or the Lhazareen (people of the grassland sea) in the sacrifices. This was insufficient to create the bond. Through the heart of a lion, might refer to the fact that the sacrifice needed to have a certain quality of courage to help create the bond, yet even this by itself was not enough. The final quality had to be the emotional connection between rider and sacrifice, which is through the heart of AA's "spouse".

"Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame" ADWD.

Now compare that to the slaver who gets a face full of Drogon: "A lance of swirling, dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire.."

I think the reference to "sword" actually references the dragon.

Finally, and I won't go into the full theory here, but I believe that the birth of Jon Snow, is Rhaegar's creation of "Lightbringer" forging the blade through the heart of the spouse (Lyanna). While Rhaego is Daenerys' creation "Lightbringer" in that Rhaego's "birth" was through the sacrifice of Drogo. Rhaego is already "living" within Viserion, is perhaps Jon going to join his cousin? (after all the Dragon has three heads)

"Viserion woke and opened his jaws, and a puff of flame brightened even the darkest corners." ASOS Chpt. 27. Certainly seems like a bringer of light to me.

"Viserion sensed her disquiet. The white dragon lay coiled around a pear tree, his head resting on his tail". ADWD Daenerys 1. Two interesting symbols here: one is the Ouroboros which represents cyclicality and re-creation. And the pear tree which in Christianity represents mankind's salvation.

Now I know that this is not the heretically held belief that Jon Snow's importance lies with his ties to the north. But my guess is that Jon Snow may fulfill the mythologies of both the Lands of always Winter and the Lands of the endless Summer.

[King Tyrion VIII]

How will Jon fulfill both mythologies?

[Joken79]

It is also not mentioned (as far as I remember) that there was ever blood of a woman needed.

I mean there was also Shireen at Dragonstone. Perhaps Melisandre didn't want their blood because she knew she will never get the permission from Stannis.

And remember Crasters sons. He "sacrifices" only the boys.

[Black Crow]

My mind did go to the bastards that maybe they were suppose to be the houses gifts to "gaia" so to speak as a consort.There gift of a suitable( if the gods accept) man-child.

Not necessarily as sacrifices. I think another way of putting it is that is that just as the land and the king are one, so bastards belong not to the family that produced them but to the land. Obviously the vast majority of bastards doen't get thrown down wells or otherwise sacrificed and some of the bondings are meaningless - like the Tanners of Kings Landing - but in some of them the bond, perhaps if it is royal blood dedicated to the land (we're talking Jon Snow here of course) then there could well be significance.

Conversely if this is the case, will legitimisation have any effect?

In Jon Snow's case possibly not since he's assumed to really be the son of Lyanna, not Ned, but it would be ironic if Ramsay's link had been cut by his legitimisation as the son of Roose. In other words his desire to become recognised as heir to the Dreadfort and to gain Winterfell had negated his link to the land as a Snow.