Heresy 54

[Toccs]

Hmm, that's interesting, Toccs!

I can not take all the credit, that particular observation is an old Heresy tidbit. I just thought it was worth pointing out now since the discussion is tending towards raising Jon and we have a lot of new faces.

[Tyryan Lannister]

we have a lot of new faces.

That's been happening a lot lately :commie: :commie: :commie: :commie:

[Melifeather]

Just finished watching episode 7 which was written by GRRM, and I have to wonder

where he's going with Melisandre taking Gendry back to Kings Landing?

A few confirmations/reveals/presented situations: Robb's wife is pregnant, Theon does lose his "manhood", Margaery isn't a virgin, Orell was in love with Ygritte, and it was mentioned more than once that there's power in Kings blood.

[Frey family reunion]

And also worth pointing out is that after his death and his soul moving into One Eye, Varamyr's body did not get raised as a Wight. This would seem to indicate that the Skinchangers soul leaving the body at death, prevents the body being raised by magic.

Which will of course be a problem for anyone who tries to raise Jon while his soul is inside Ghost.

Do you think the situation would be different if instead of say, Thoric's resurrection, it was more akin to Beric's "kiss of life"? I've been wondering just how much of Lady Stoneheart is Cat and just how much of it is Beric.

[Frey family reunion]

The description of the monster's death almost matches exactly with what happened to Drogon when the one Mereenese guard speared him.

Hmm interesting. Now that you mentioned it I seem to remember a back and forth you had with BC about this topic.

Comparing and contrasting several different scenes:

1. Azor's killing of "the monster" with Lightbringer:

In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame.

2. Drogon's killing of the slaver in Astapor:

A lance of swirling dark flame took Kraznys full in the face. His eyes melted and ran down his cheeks, and the oil in his hair and beard burst so fiercely into fire...

3. The spear into Drogon:

His spear remained in Drogon's back, wobbling as the dragon beat his wings. Smoke rose from the wound...His blood was smoking too, where it dripped upon the ground...Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands.

(BTW going back and rereading that scene, made me realize a little joke Martin was having. Remember the movie Dragonslayer? The scene where the "hero" gets on the back of the dragon and gets the spear between his scales? At least that's my memory of the scene.)

The difference between Drogon's wounds and the wounds of "the monster" in the tale of Azor, is that the monster's blood only started to boil when "the sword" was inserted into the belly. Then comes the smoke and steam. I think basically, the monster is being heated to a boil.

When Drogon is struck, his blood does not begin to boil, because his blood is basically liquid fire, smoking as soon as the wound is created and as soon as it hits the ground.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Do you think the situation would be different if instead of say, Thoric's resurrection, it was more akin to Beric's "kiss of life"? I've been wondering just how much of Lady Stoneheart is Cat and just how much of it is Beric.

And how much of it is Thoros? Or the vengeance of the Old Gods incarnated (from the Freys having violated guest right)? :dunno:

[Tyryan Lannister]

Just finished watching episode 7 which was written by GRRM, and I have to wonder

where he's going with Melisandre taking Gendry back to Kings Landing?

A few confirmations/reveals/presented situations: Robb's wife is pregnant, Theon does lose his "manhood", Margaery isn't a virgin, Orell was in love with Ygritte, and it was mentioned more than once that there's power in Kings blood.

Damn it I'm supposed to have the first word! :cool4:

[Black Crow]

Do you think the situation would be different if instead of say, Thoric's resurrection, it was more akin to Beric's "kiss of life"? I've been wondering just how much of Lady Stoneheart is Cat and just how much of it is Beric.

The difference is that both Beric and the rotten corpse were raised while the spirit/soul was inside. The basic theory we have about this business is that at death the spiriit sleeps within the body and ultimately the bones before eventually fading into the earth - cremation obviously cuts across or speeds up this process. Raising the dead, whether by Ice or Fire or any other kind of magic not only arrests the decay but more importantly awakens the spirit. However if said spirit is no longer present you get the Drogo effect which is why we don't see a dead Varamyr walking about.

[Tyryan Lannister]

K, so, here we go.

Jon snow continues to know nothing; fuel is given to the Jeyne Westerling escaped with Blackfish/preggers with Robb's child fire; more marching Free Folk, Orell horny; Sansa knows she's been an idiot! with advice from Marg, seemingly going to take the T-S relationship to a completely different place than what is in the books; damn it we need more Bronn; gods I love Tywin "We could arrange to have you carried" Beautiful; Dany greets a Yunkish emissary, plus dragon show--the scene makes me wonder, however, if they are going to have Yunkai be a merger of Yunkai and Mereen; Tyrion presents Shae with a golden chain... I foresee this being of importance at the end of Season 4 :devil: plus argument between the two, just a silly lover's quarrel; Mel and Gendry sail past KL, and Mel is "confirmed" as a slave, and Gendry learns his father; Arya is apparently worshiping He-of-Many-Faces already, and then she runs off, and into... well, you know...; awww, tender moment between the Lady Brienne and Ser Jaime, and remind that Qyburn exists, and Roose is leaving for the Twins "Give my regards to Lord Tywin" "Give my regards to Robb Stark" stuff; some ladies "help" out Theon, the transformation into Reek has definitely begun, plus more Ramsay Horn, and heavily implied that a castration has, well, yeah...; Free Folk dine on deer, go past a windmill? Guess it's the stand in for Queen's Crown? Words of wisdom from Jon Snow, plus bunch of hints that he isn't one of them and such; Hodor; Black Magic; Hodor; Hodor; lay down the fact that they are going beyond the Wall--finally taking the 3EC route of things, riff between Reeds and Osha looking like to be what causes her to take Rickon to Skaagos--and apparently Osha's former husband was wightified*; info on Qyburn re: the experiments, and Jaime says he's better than Pycelle; Bear and the Maiden Fair

*And on a Heresy note, she says that it means that "The North is no place for men to be--not any more." Really fits in with our theories on the two realms and such.

So, yeah, seems only the one thing as pointed out in my footnote there is Heresy worthy this episode--please point out ones that I might have missed

[Black Crow]

Look forward with interest. Its a GRRM episode of course and while adding the caveat that in this business the director not the writer has the final say on what goes down, I would say that the outline isn't inconsistent with the book as already modified.

As to the pregnant whatshername from Volantis I suspect thats GRRM's joke. He's already squashed the Jayne Westerling theory...

[Tyryan Lannister]

Look forward with interest. Its a GRRM episode of course and while adding the caveat that in this business the director not the writer has the final say on what goes down, I would say that the outline isn't inconsistent with the book as already modified.

As to the pregnant whatshername from Volantis I suspect thats GRRM's joke. He's already squashed the Jayne Westerling theory...

I would hope so, or maybe

she gets punched real hard in the gut at the RW and is given an abortion? :dunno: Provided the theories of her surviving the RW so as to be the person that Ramsay marries in place of a fake Arya being true

[Frey family reunion]

Do the heretics have a theory on the topic of penises? (what a great segue by the way). It is strongly suspected that burning someone alive can be used to put life into the lifeless. At least according to Melisandre and what happened during Drogo's funeral.

Why would you remove and then burn someone's genitals? If what Varys said is true, someone took enough trouble to track him down and use his twig and berries in ritual by fire. The only thing I could think of (admittedly in the crackpot stage) is that the ritual is being used to change the bloodlines of an unborn child. Let's say that Varys is a Targaryen could there have been someone who wanted these bloodlines inserted into an unborn child?

[TheButcherCrow]

I strongly suspect that like the rest of the lore, the reference to "monster" might be a reference to something else, like the Ghiscari empire.

I suggested (half-jokingly, tbh) a while ago that the monster AA slew was the Harpy. A metaphorical interpretation is far more likely but you never know...

[Boulderbum]

Do the heretics have a theory on the topic of penises? (what a great segue by the way). It is strongly suspected that burning someone alive can be used to put life into the lifeless. At least according to Melisandre and what happened during Drogo's funeral.

Why would you remove and then burn someone's genitals? If what Varys said is true, someone took enough trouble to track him down and use his twig and berries in ritual by fire. The only thing I could think of (admittedly in the crackpot stage) is that the ritual is being used to change the bloodlines of an unborn child. Let's say that Varys is a Targaryen could there have been someone who wanted these bloodlines inserted into an unborn child?

Good observation given the shows added emphasis on Varys sorcerer.

I know this has been brought up in Heresy in the past, but I don't believe it is "blood" behind all of the magic, but rather life-force (see Mel's shadow baby, emphasis on bones in the series, "only death can pay for life")

Castration may prove to be significant. What other examples do we have? Varys, unsullied, Theon & ????)

[Tyryan Lannister]

Do the heretics have a theory on the topic of penises?

Nope

Good observation given the shows added emphasis on Varys sorcerer.

I know this has been brought up in Heresy in the past, but I don't believe it is "blood" behind all of the magic, but rather life-force (see Mel's shadow baby, emphasis on bones in the series, "only death can pay for life")

Castration may prove to be significant. What other examples do we have? Varys, unsullied, Theon & ????)

Do like how this ties into a possible theory on them though

ETA: and it being Life-Force really helps with our theory of different manifestations of magic based on the one true Magic--that being the Magic of the Life-Force (which also happens to tie into the theory that me and some others--but, for the record, not Black Crow--subscribe to about the relation between Craster's boys and the White Walkers, wherein it is not that they actually are the babes, but rather the Life-Force of the babes in an Icy, corporeal form.

[Black Crow]

I suggested (half-jokingly, tbh) a while ago that the monster AA slew was the Harpy. A metaphorical interpretation is far more likely but you never know...

Its possible of course, but what we discussed a little ways back was that it was the other way around. Writing the Azor Ahai prophecy in Asshai 5000 years ago would be contemporary with the Ghiscari fight against the expanding Valyrian empire. Hence the suggestion Azor Ahai might have been a Ghiscari dragonslayer and the darkness wasn't the long night but the metaphorical darkness of Valyria casting its shadow upon the land.

Which again gives us a backstory for what Dany and her amazing dragons are doing way out there in the first place and why its relevant to the Song of Ice and Fire.

[alienarea]

Good observation given the shows added emphasis on Varys sorcerer.

I know this has been brought up in Heresy in the past, but I don't believe it is "blood" behind all of the magic, but rather life-force (see Mel's shadow baby, emphasis on bones in the series, "only death can pay for life")

Castration may prove to be significant. What other examples do we have? Varys, unsullied, Theon & ????)

The Night King gave his seed. We don't know if this is metaphorical, or just the seed or the seed by giving all parts required to produce it.

Looks like the giving the seed belongs to the white lot and blood sacrifice to the red lot (how fitting ... isn't that a bit trivial for GRRM?).

Following this, Varys might have fueled the white lot, giving an added spin to his "for the children".

[Black Crow]

I think there's too much being read into this. As I've said before I think the Nights King (Sherrit Stark?) giving his seed to the Sidhe Queen was metaphorical in the sense of giving her his sons, since it was afterwards found that he and his men had been "sacrificing" to the Otherlanders.

Theon having bits carved off him was just down to Ramsay being sadistic

Varys? Who knows, but it seemed like some kind of low level summoning spell rather than anything significant, especially the way he was casually abandoned afterwards.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Varys? Who knows, but it seemed like some kind of low level summoning spell rather than anything significant, especially the way he was casually abandoned afterwards.

Well, you could make the case that if Mel had been able to burn Edric, the bastard would have been casually abandoned in the process, while potentially fulfilling a significant part in a high level magic

[FuriousGeorge]

How on earth have I only just found this thread

ETA - I had shit to do today :bang: