James Steller

You got me...

That is the optimistic outcome. More likely it would tear the kingdom apart in other ways. The peace depended on the grand alliance between the North, Stormlands, Vale, and Riverlands. Renly can say what he wants, but his bid for kingship helped tear that alliance apart. Blame Stannis for his part, but Renly was no innocent in this story.

So, his claim to the throne rests on the use of brute force and torture. The only way he seems better than any of the others so far is because he’s more charming than them. The Faith of the Seven was horrifically bigoted. They burned or cut down most of the weirwoods during the Andal conquest. That’s like saying Christianity is pretty tolerant of pagan faiths nowadays while discounting hundreds of years of colonization, appropriation, and persecution prior to the milder present day.

Even CravingPeaches isn’t this sycophantic towards Renly.

Fair. But I was thinking about how the city eventually turns against their heroes when they fail to live up to their reputations (Rhaenyra). Renly would have to do a lot to cement his kingship and it would be a rough road. Who knows if people would stay loyal. Making prostitution illegal was an awful suggestion, I agree with you in that. I can work to make it be about Littlefinger and cutting off his main source of income, but frankly I think it’s because Stannis has profound issues with sex and women. It’s the biggest issue I have with him, honestly. That said, Stannis was the one who tries to remove corruption from Robert’s administration. He presented evidence that Janos Slynt was a terrible lord commander and Robert didn’t care. Renly didn’t seem to care either. Ah-ha, I forgot about that. That’s another serious hurdle for Renly. Tommen and Myrcella would exist to potentially rally support against Renly in case people don’t believe his claims of incest. And given that many people thought Stannis’ claims were made up for selfish reasons, I don’t think Renly would be any more convincing. What’s he gonna do that Stannis couldn’t? Parade the kids around Westeros for everyone to see? How many smallfolk even know what Robert looked like? He’d have the same issues Stannis has, sooner or later. Before House Targaryen, the seven dynasties had endured for thousands of years despite all the wars and competition. The Targs threw everything into chaos and couldn’t even keep their position for three hundred years without nearly disintegrating at least five times in their history as rulers. That sounds like Westerosi bigotry rearing it’s ugly head again (to be fair I think almost all the religions in the series are equally intolerant and bigoted towards each other. I’m only in favour of the Summer Isles’ faith) That’s a charitable assumption. He was quite happy to have stannis killed to get him out of the way. I know Stannis was stubborn and unwilling to compromise but at least stannis offered terms to Renly. Renly didn’t even bother, he was too busy mocking his brother or bragging about the size of his… army. Again, why would anyone believe him if he tried to use that to justify his rule? His only grounds seem to be brute force, and who knows how long that will last if the Reach decides he isn’t quite favourable enough to them? Or if the other kingdoms manage to break enough of the Reach’s armies? Given that the Reach couldn’t even conquer the Stormlands after thousands of years, I don’t think Renly’s superiority in strength is guaranteed forever.

I could make this all about how we never have any proof that Renly is a worthy candidate for kingship, that we never see him actually doing his alleged job as Master of Laws, that the most he does is be a charismatic dinner guest (I see you fuming, Peaches ). But for the sake of fairness, let’s assume that Renly did have the potential to be a good king. Hard to be worse than Robert, really, but anyway. First, Renly will not have a good reputation in King’s Landing. He is a conqueror who first abandoned King’s Landing to the Lannisters (whom the King’s Landing people despise for the sack, Ned Stark’s unholy execution, and the whole starvation thing). But Renly would also be potentially held responsible for that starvation, and not unjustly so. He deliberately chooses to prolong the war and the suffering of the smallfolk for his own game strategy. But assuming all that doesn’t affect his kingship, we are still not accounting for the games being played by those around Renly. He would have to put down the armies of Tywin Lannister, Robb Stark, and Balon Greyjoy. Littlefinger has no loyalty to him, nor do Pycelle or Varys. Varys would easily be able to kill him in order to throw the realm into chaos and pave the way for fAegon. And even if Renly did somehow defeat all these people, Daenerys was going to come back to Westeros and fry the Usurper’s brother with some Dracarys action.

Tywin’s most stupid act was to work so hard to make Tyrion an enemy instead of an heir. Anyone could see that Tyrion is a deeply intelligent man, if only they stopped judging him by his appearance. Tywin should have recognised how useful Tyrion was, given how well he was able to take advantage of people’s estimations.

Speaking of, since when are you a Renly fan?

Stannis Baratheon: A fascinating portrayal of a good man with serious flaws that threaten to undermine anything he wants to do. He has one of my favourite character arcs in fantasy lit, never mind this series. Stannis defies people’s assumptions. He is described as humourless, but he has some of the funniest lines in the books. He is derided as being friendless, inspiring no loyalty, even as he wins the loyalty of men and lords alike, in victory and in defeat. He is one of the few men in the story who doesn’t judge based on rank or titles, and he alone has no interest in playing a dirty game. All things considered, I find his flaws and his potential downfall to be tragic more than anything. Aegon III: Fire and Blood was a great book, not least of which because it made me really appreciate Aegon the Dragonbane. He shares a lot in common with Stannis, but not too much that he’s a carbon copy. He is a tragic figure, and after so many years of manipulation and neglect, it was so satisfying to see him take charge of his life. Edmure Tully: another character which the abomination destroyed. He is hotheaded and proud, but he is also perhaps the only lord in the Seven Kingdoms who actually cares about his own people. It is sometimes to his detriment, of course, but I will always respect him for it. Tywin and Cersei Lannister: if we’re going by the OP’s standards, I think Tywin and Cersei are two of the best written villains I’ve come across in literature. They both do evil things and feel utterly justified in doing so because of pride, ambition, or even madness. They are blind to their own faults, their own hypocrisies, and their own mistakes. I have no problem despising them, and I take great schadenfreude in their destructions. Wyman Manderly: Wyman is an underrated figure, given how clever he is and also how loyal he is to House Stark. It’s nice to see him subvert expectations and I look forward to seeing him emerge on top when all his enemies find out just who they’ve been dealing with.

The whole point of Daena and Baelor’s relationship was that they *didn’t* consummate it. Daemon would have been Baelor’s legitimate heir, and he wouldn’t have bothered to starve himself to death when Daena got pregnant, and why in seven hells would she be called Daena the Defiant if she didn’t cheat on Baelor from within the Maidenvault?? I swear, some theories are just blatant fanfiction.

Proximity to the capital, presumably. On topic, though, it’s interesting how GRRM, for all his name-dropping and creating a huge world of people, wouldn’t bother naming the squires of the Kingsguard. They have no presence whatsoever apart from the aforementioned casual mentions. Where were their squires during Jaime’s meeting? Why do they seem to have zero presence?

His “real” father is Ned. To hell with biology trumping actual parenting. But as to your point, yes, it’s really weird how Ned is characterized in regards to that possible twist.

I mean, aren’t all monarchs basically tyrants?

You still don’t know??? After everything I’ve said to explain my own position on Stannis?? I’m almost hurt.

Exactly! Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not Jaime. GRRM made that clear enough to me.

Well, I wasn’t naming anyone in particular as a Renly stan. I was simply pointing out the problem they would face. And I won’t ever say that I’m objective about these characters. I have my biases and my preferences, and I very much prefer Stannis to Renly. I don’t always support his actions, and I probably wouldn’t like him in real life, but I do find him to be my favourite literary character in this series. But in any case, you make a good point about my cosplay comment. I sincerely apologise for that, it was unworthy of Renly and his supporters.

Agreed. I don’t dispute that what Stannis did was a dark deed. I do dispute the notion that Renly stood any higher on that moral hill than Stannis, though. Based on my impression of Renly, he would have done the same and maybe worse in the name of power and self preservation (the same motivations behind Stannis’ actions in ACOK)

Heh, this puts the Renly stans in a bit of a predicament. Either Renly secretly knew about the incest and blatantly pretended otherwise (which isn’t supported in the text), or he was willing to put all his nieces and nephews (who were, as far as he was concerned, his blood relatives) to death so that he could seize their inheritance for himself. At least Stannis knew that the kids were illegitimate incest products. Renly just wanted to cosplay as his older brother and play conqueror to seize power.

Stannis would have backed Renly if their ages had been reversed. He backed Robert all his life when Robert did nothing (as far as I can see) to deserve stannis’ loyalty. He did it because of blood, and duty. Renly cared about neither of those things, clearly. And as for the whole “Stannis didn’t warn anyone or declare his bid for kingship”, I honestly think that’s more of a plot hole on GRRM’s part. He was still writing the first book, and he needed Stannis out of the way so that it was a mystery. Stannis would absolutely have told Ned if he’d already worked with Jon Arryn.

I disagree with you on Renly. He needed to die. Renly had betrayed his elder brother by not joining his side as fury had once compelled Stannis to join Robert’s Rebellion and support his own elder brother. It was a betrayal, and Renly showed himself quite certain capable and willing to order Stannis’ death. Plus his death did grant Stannis the strength he needed to attack King’s Landing. I do agree that killing Cortnay Penrose was such a waste of a shadow baby. Stannis could have accepted Cortnay’s challenge and ordered one of his many knights to kill this middle aged guy. Or if you’re desperate, have Lomas Estermont or Elwood Meadows usurp him or kill him and take charge. Wasting a shadowbaby on Cortnay instead of Tywin was a huge mistake,

If it was so easy to kill him that way, why hasn’t anyone done it? EDIT: never mind, I misunderstood what you said, sorry

To be fair, it’s not like Jaqen would have been able to kill Tywin or Gregor immediately. AFAIR, he didn’t promise her an ETA for his killings, so if she’d named Tywin, it might have taken him some time to do it. Maybe Tyrion still would have gotten to him before Jaqen did.

If that’s what it took to save humanity, I’d rather root for the Others to win. It was bad enough when Mel convinced Stannis that sacrificing people was how he would win. If what you say is true, Rhaegar and Lyanna sacrificed untold thousands of people’s lives without their consent to fulfill a prophecy. The idea of ASOIAF boiling down to another Chosen One story would be a disappointing direction, in my opinion.

No, I don’t think that’s accurate. How could Tywin would have known when Stannis would attack King’s Landing? He would have had to know everything the readers know, and the readers themselves were surprised by Stannis’ shadowbaby plan to take over Renly’s army and kill Cortnay Penrose. Tywin must have figured that he’d have weeks while Stannis besieged Storm’s End. Nobody could have guessed that the castle would fall that quickly.

Then where was he?