Scott_N

This is a good choice. The Hobbit is a children's book so it is naturally very different to Tolkien's other work. You might well read it some time but I think it's a poor introduction to Tolkien because what you get in the Simlarillion etc. is something else entirely. Something outstanding, to be sure, but it is pretty grim.

We don't have to guess as the FA provided a short explanation. From the BBC: The FA spoke with both players and six others who were close to the incident. Video footage was also reviewed and evidence was collected from independent linguistics experts. "None of the witnesses heard the alleged comment, and the player accused strenuously denied the allegation throughout," the FA said in a statement after its "full and thorough investigation". "Whilst the FA is entirely satisfied that the allegation was made in good faith, it is equally satisfied that there is no case to answer."

You are right. I took out my frustrations with the show by belittling you (and anyone else enjoying the show). Uncalled for and I am sorry.

At least this thread helps me understand why the reactions to the show are so different. Someone like Caligula is watching something nonsensical like the The Hobbit or Merlin and, of course, if that is the expectation, RoP is probably perfectly serviceable. I thought I'd watch an adaptation about the second age, which is pretty grim stuff all in all, so clearly I'll be disappointed by this fantasy light show that does not care about the source material at all.

Not only did it not happen over a day, Sauron spent centuries with Celebrimbor. Off hand I can't remember if it was 300 years or 400 years but it certainly wasn't a 30 second flirt as in the RoP show.

I'd disagree but, even so, this show is not LOTR. It is about the second age so I don't really understand the notion that RoP is somehow supposed to be cheesy.

I'm not sure it does imply that he didn't want to be another Morgoth/dark lord. Yes, he said he wanted to heal what had been destroyed but the motivation is two-fold: Firstly, the eternal jealously and resentment of Eru - neither Morgoth nor Sauron can create life, they can only degrade and mimic it. Secondly, through proposing to heal the world, gain by deceit (as he and his master have done so many times previously) and always with the obvious ambition of him ruling this new world single-handedly.

Have you read The Sil or Lost Tales? Cheesy is not what comes to mind. The Hobbit may be cheesy but it is a children's book.

They doubled-down on every single narrative decision I dislike. Compressing the timeline means that nothing has any depth, individuals behave a certain way because the showrunners need them to, no situation or character is allowed time to develop. Not a single thing of the many inventions these showrunners have come up with has enhanced the story. They all detract. The Elven extinction event makes me look away from the screen in disgust every time. The way Celebrimbor is portrayed he is, if possible, even less believable than Galadriel. Fëanor’s blood runs weak in this one. Fake Sauron reveal as if all the fake deaths were not annoying enough. It’s a simple, trite, arrogant show that disrespects its viewers. How can the elves not know the Southland king’s line was broken a thousand years ago? What were the doing all those centuries patrolling and guarding the Southlands? Why would the humans welcome him back as the king if there hasn't been one around for a thousand years! The Priestesses are absolutely ludicrous figures running around in their silly, ceremonial robes. And the magic they wield is out of place. It does not belong here. Were we supposed to think they were ring-wraiths even do the requisite rings have not yet been manufactured? “oh, he is not Sauron, he is the other one”. “I am GOOD”. Ffs. There is not a single person around for a dying king other than an apprentice there on assignment? Not even shouting for help makes someone materialize. OK, Celebrimbor *is* more believable than Galadriel after all. She now knows Sauron is, erm, Sauron but of course does not tell anyone. Even in the context of show-Galadriel this is too much. Face saving is more important than letting people know a minor player called Sauron is afoot. They have also messed up the ring-making lore in a way I don’t understand how it’ll make sense later on. Don’t really mind the Halbrand actor. In a story much better told (like, say, by Tolkien) he could work for me as Annatar. Along with the dwarves (when they are not used for comic relief) one of the few things in this show I don’t dislike (I’m ambivalent on Elrond). But the abruptness with which everything has to happen cheapens every interaction. The actress who plays Miriel has presence, there is something there, but she is never given an opportunity to shine due to inferior writing. When they try to ‘elevate’ the dialog to something serious or purposeful, the opposite happens. It’s a bit like reading a parody of Cormac McCarthy; the original is a thing of marvel, but it is easy to ridicule in parody. Surprisingly I was not upset by the Gandalf-reveal. I suppose I was already resigned to that fact along with Nori traipsing along. Were we told why Halbrand was on a raft in the middle of the sea? I admit I found it hard to watch the Gala-Sauron interaction due to being acutely embarrassed on behalf of the writers. Lastly, the worst character assassination is surely what they’ve done to Gil-galad. And before I’m told to stop watching the show, I promise I shall try. Though I might return to root for Sauron the way things are going.

Not really, no. Even the Valar themselves were not all-powerful and each had a natural propensity to certain strengths/duties. The same would typically apply to Maiar as they tended to associate with an individual Vala (though some did develop associations with several Valar). I cannot see servants of Morgoth being able to do what The Stranger did. I expect only one associated with Yavanna or Vana would have the ability.

I actually think the Bard of B is correct, commercially speaking. Most people who love the LoTR trilogy of films have not read the book. Even more so for The Hobbit. So, to an awful lot of people Hobbits are intimately associated with Tolkien and Middle-earth. Therefore to reach that large, casual audience - an audience that has already been infantalized by decades of superhero fare - Hobbits must be included. I understand why Amazon insisted on it. I just vehemently disagree with it. Only Tolkien-nerds quite appreciate the volume of first and second age writing he did. Ages where there is no hint of Harfoot or Hobbit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_(Tolkien)#Characteristics You are right that Glorfindel's case is special but that is because, the second time around, he was sent to Middle-earth as an emissary of the Valar. He was also imbued with additional powers, iirc, thanks to his self-sacrifice. Nonetheless, he had been re-bodied for some 1,600 years already over in Valinor before he was sent back.

Whether they perish in Valinor or Middle-earth, Elves definitely reincarnate. After having spent a period of time in the Halls of Mandos, they would reincarnate into bodies identical to before. Now, their spirit could refuse to - but the opportunity was provided by the Valar. By the same token, the Valar could also delay reincarnation, or withhold it altogether, if they felt it was merited.

There are many people on here who know the lore far better than I, but the way I remember it: Elves are of Arda, and tied to Arda, so only when/once Arda ends, do the Elves end. I.e. they are for all sense and purpose immortal. They can be physically killed but their spirit would live on and after some time they would typically be re-bodied in Aman/Valinor (I’m only aware of Fëanor having been refused). Now, and this is the bit the show has twisted, Elves in Middle-earth (maybe also Valinor, I don’t recall) could eventually die of grief and weariness with their spirits essentially consuming their bodies. But this is not a sudden extinction event for all Elves like in the show and, furthermore, it can most certainly not be cured by god damned mithril.

Agreed, nonsense questions. What I want to hear, more than anything, is their defence of the Elves going extinct next spring with mithril being the cure. It's just unforgivable.

Ah, that's where I know her from! Yes, she is very good in Counterpart. Her character in ROP is hopeless though but at least this knowledge helps me to stop blaming the actress.

Agreed and it was hardly subtle and difficult to miss. Of all the things to be upset about this is not one of them.

The showrunners clearly intended it. From that THP article: "Fans have eagerly speculated certain characters might be Sauron in disguise, which is precisely the sort of engagement the writers hoped to see."

I too remember being a bit nonplussed by Dylan's win but, on reflection, once you delve into his lyrics and listen/read to the quality he has put out over decades, it seems to me a perfectly deserved win. I'd be happy for the prize to be awarded to Rushdie or Ngugi. Or course, my true wish is McCarthy wins it, but exceedingly unlikely. I cannot truly connect with Chinese writers. Mo Yan and Gao Xingjiang are both writers I have been through out of obligation rather than anything else. I believe that is due to an inherent difficulty translating Chinese to English (I cannot read pinyin); more gets lost than in other translations making the translated work inferior to the original.

What is ridiculous is you constantly repeating this even though I'm sure you know it's not true. Plenty of people have turned against the show because they think it's a poor one. I resent this implication that the only people who could possibly dislike RoP do so due to nefarious, ulterior motives.

Not a guy though. Or the actor isn't at least. 'The Dweller' is played by actress Bridie Sisson.

It's funny how we watch the very same things yet see them so differently. Arondir's battle had zero stakes as we all know, you too I'm sure, not only how it would end but *exactly* how. This show is so cliche-ridden I don't think the writers deserve a salary. I have disliked the Southlands story from the start. It's basically a cheap romance (and a terribly poor use of Cruz-Cordova). Anyway, the subsequent cavalry charge that we've seen a thousand times before is so predictable and also so entirely implausible. At this stage I cannot recognize anything Tolkien in this show, really, other than them using names from his works. It's a brash fantasy melodrama of mediocre quality. Quite where all the money has gone I don't understand either. Everything feels so small-scale.

It really doesn't. It would barely work on CW. I agree there is even worse writing than that.

Well, Elves in this show appear to me as wholly human, just with added pointy ears. They do seem impoverished, the poor bastards, only having one set of clothes each, so I suppose some allowances need to be made. And when it comes to Gil-galad, I just don't know what to say. We have junior supervisors at my firm with more gravitas than he has. Though that goes for most Amazon Elves.