Angel Eyes

My point is that Ned and Catelyn's marriage already tied Hoster to the rebels and he wound up shooting them in the foot with the other since Lysa was unhappy with a husband who was four times her age and Littlefinger found a vulnerable link to pick at and break the alliance apart.

Maybe not even the North, given how the Karstark sons were saying that Bran should kill himself (which also makes Tyrion appear rather foolish).

I don't think so; Ned and Cat would have aligned the Tullys with Robert's cause without needing Jon and Lysa's match.

Or maybe Tywin had Tysha's throat slit and dumped her corpse in a privy.

I just think that Tywin meant to throw Tyrion off completely; since whores are everywhere, there's an inordinate amount of places she could be.

I thought Victarion killed her.

Plus Oldtown in Obara's case. As for Oberyn losing the trial, Martin wanted to subvert Inigo Montoya.

Well, like how you suggested, Sansa does wind up being all alone in the show which is what I was getting at.

Like how she ended in the show?

Well, I wouldn't put it past Jaime to choose not to know; he'd already lived through the Sack of King's Landing where the kids he was supposed to protect were killed on Tywin's orders and their mother raped. There's no way he couldn't know unless he blinded himself to it. When it comes to Tyrion's bastards I'd say that most wouldn't want to keep his. There's always that outside chance of their child inheriting Tyrion's dwarfism and given how Tyrion is marginalized even at the upper echelons of society, they'd at least think twice. As for getting someone else to care for the kid or funds from the father? Forget about it for Tywin will make a Mountain of trouble for you.

I always wondered why Jaime decided to go along with Tywin on that...

That's the other thing; did they even need the Jon Arryn/Lysa match if Catelyn was already going to be bound to the Rebellion via marriage to Ned?

Something during Catelyn's first chapter in ASOS says that Hoster wasn't the type to sire illegitimate kids, so I would imagine that Hoster would disapprove of Walder's open acknowledgement of them. As far as selling both daughters, he chose to follow through Catelyn's betrothal with Brandon by swapping Ned in, but with Lysa, he could have chosen to marry her away from the land of the schmuck who sired a bastard on her, who Hoster knew was a bad influence.

Always wondered how disguising Jeyne as "Arya" would be pulled off and allowed. Technically Ramsay would be bedding an 11-year-old.

Do you think it's possible that Catelyn dislikes Jon because Ned looked out for him like Walder and Hoster made his dislike of Walder's practices plain? Hoster wasn't just a jerk but also an idiot.

So... Creatively it'll make sense because he wants it to happen?

Given Martin's emphasis on realism in the books, it's surprising he'd be so lax with logistics. Something else the show copied over.

Not to mention Sandor since Clegane Sr. covered the burning up.

As far as the muppet Tullys are concerned, Martin wasted an opportunity to throw in an Eddard, Gordyn, and Henryk.

You forgot Sansa the Traitorous.

Well who'd have thought this happened in the show.

And some kids suffer less and become killers. Look at Joffrey or Aerys the Mad.

Two. There was a Vale tribesman whose throat she slit in AGOT.

That tends to happen as a zombie, not to mention GRRM's dislike of resurrections where the person who comes back is mostly normal.

Another one to throw in: Randyll and Sam. Not even Tywin directly threatens to murder his son unless he goes to a monastic order (and for some reason Tywin never considers sending Tyrion to the citadel and enables his whoring by giving him money despite his public disapproval).