Daeron the Daring

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Where is this implication? GRRM has said Robert could have kept SE if he wanted, or given it to someone else:

Wasn't familiar with the quote. But in a medieval society, it is insanely unthinkable to just give away lands and titles these big like it's nothing. But it's not the first time George does this, so it's on me.

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Also, by convention Dragonstone goes to the heir, which Stannis was at the time, so I don't think Robert would then be obliged to give him Storm's End on top of that.

But Dragonstone isn't a hereditary title.

It's like being a Dauphin in the Kingdom of France. Always goes to the heir, and it doesn't pass trough him.

Viserys abandoned that rule, and Robert too, altough it is much reasonable for Robert to not care too much about a Targaryen custom.

23 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

We both disagree so it cancels out? Like multiplying negative numbers?

Depends. Do they cancel each other out or not?

30 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I disagree here

No, I disagree.

15 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

That's because it wasn't Stannis' birthright, it was Robert's, and therefore Robert's to do with as he pleased. Stannis is a second son who is lucky he got anything (so is Renly). Under normal circumstances, Stannis would have been Robert's castellan or something. Benjen doesn't get his own castle, Garlan only gets one because the Florents rebelled, Loras doesn't get his own castle, Bran is told he will get to hold a castle in Robb's name, there is no discussion of Rickon getting anything, Kevan gets no lands of his own, Tyrion was going to have to make do with his wife's castle, etc.

Not how it works. There's the implication that Storm's End, and the overlordship of the Stormlands can't remain royal domains/ titles. 

Under hereditary law, it becomes a case of natural succession. And it's never Robert's to an extent that he can do anything to or with it anyway.

That's the assumption we should make, if we were to take a look at what automatically disinherited certain people in lines of succession in real life.

39 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I mean, everybody is ultimately responsible for their own actions.

I know, I'm just smokin copium cuz there was this time I was like 8 and I was sleepwalking and I went to the bathroom while sleepwalking because I had to, except that I didn't go to the bathroom, because I went to the kitchen (just one door to the left, they are very close to each other), and then i took a piss on one of the chairs instead of the toilet, and then when I got confronted, I was like: "Mom, it ain't my fault, I was sleepwalking."

But it was my fault, and I'm selfresenting ever since. 

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Given I've had to explain how Aerys is a sadist to some people I can't say I'm surprised.

Well, you really could make the argument that both Joffrey and Aerys should have been lifted from the burden of their own actions. I mean, I know it's not the right setting, but just because society still expected something from them that they simply did not have the capability to fulfill (one for being a fucked up child, the other for being mentally ill) doesn't really makes them capable of holding responsibility for what they were and did.

And don't get me wrong, I hate Joffrey or Aerys when I read what dey do and did. But I can't blame them, and I don't think we should.

3 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

You still haven't answered why every other House marries their vassals instead of their sisters.

Mostly the established religious boundaries. 

If you're looking for a real answer tho, you should ask yourself why the Tyrells isolate themselves from the Florents. Because they're the ones to do it among the houses of the Reach. It's because they are their competitors for their status and land-based belongings, along with their societal position in the established hereditary hierarchy.

There isn't an established rule saying that marrying your children off to great houses is haram, but there's a reason why you wouldn't want to hand out claims for smiles to people like Tywin Lannister, altough others may not give a single tought about challenging their overlord based on inherited claims: The perfect example would be Robert, who just couldn't care, to a point that, for example, he probably didn't even notice how he 'stole' Stannis' birthright, and gave it to Renly.

Just as there isn't an established rule saying that every marriage is an alliance, nor that it cannot be weaponized against you. From what I can tell based on the text, nobles were doing nobility stuff when the shitstorm hit the fan, and they got caught up in it. Hoster wasn't seeking allies in the sense you mean it, because he had no reasons to. He or his status wasn't endangered, and he didn't need 60000 men to his own for anything for the foreseeable future, nor afterwards. Nobody's planning in fear of the Crown Prince causing a continent-wide civil war for his heart's desire or anything infinitely bigger than that.

Now of course, we can talk of political alliances, which is very much a thing a noble in peacetime should and would pursue. I don't see a reason why he would do it, but it might just be a 'for reasons' cliché.

Either way, we can't come up with generic rules regarding this stuff, because what the (tactically) good thing is can vary from situation to situation. There may come a time when the strategically right thing for a Tyrell is to marry a Florent, and the Florent in charge just happens to not care about centuries old claims, or stops believing in them, etc.

I'm pretty fucking sure marrying into your vassal's house, into another fellow vassal's house, into your liege's house, and even marrying into your own family was sometimes the right decision to do, other times maybe not so much.

George was skilled enough to create a world that more often than not does not feel static.

7 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Nah. Rhaegar, Lyanna and Aerys need to be blamed for the war. Not Brandon. As far as he was aware, his sister had been kidnapped and was being raped. I'm not going to victim blame him.

So we're not blaming an adult and sane man for threatening the king to kill his son and heir (based on assumptions), but we're blaming a clinically insane person for doing insane shit? 

On 9/11/2023 at 1:19 PM, Alester Florent said:

merely referred to the Targaryen preoccupation with "keeping the blood pure", something which is taken directly from the text itself. 

I don't think anyone's being racist here, but the thing Lord Varys, much more extensively than me is thinking about is that there isn't a metric this "keeping the blood pure" preoccupation (which is fairly common, but not the rule for Targaryens) is working with. Viserys III probably tought of himself as "as pure as it gets", if you were to ask him. The proof of that would be the dragon he rides, but lacking dragons, he'd make this assumption based on his looks, I'm assuming. And I think Daemon Targaryen, Jaehaerys I or Aegon I would think the very same thing, regardless of the much more diverse ethnic background they would have in Viserys' situation.

42 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Unless I'm missing something, Sandy Clegg didn't make any such assertion: any such inference is entirely yours.

What Lord Varys says is that keeping it in the family isn't to preserve the 'purity' of the blood, but to ensure a control over who is capable of riding dragons. 

I personally disagree with this, as we can very much point at a couple of Targaryens/valyrians who were supremacists/purists in nature for the sake of it, but he is right in that the major reason was indeed to preserve the ability to dragonriding to themselves only, especially while they (the dragons) were alive.

To look at the Targaryens after the death of the dragons is a trickier question, but one important thing to remember is that they never gave up on hatching new dragons. Not even Egg, who saw the hipocrisy of supremacism both in Targaryen 'customs' and noble privilege, hence why he tried to get rid of both.

9 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

But he can't, can he? If the Lannister regime falls, exactly 0 riverlords and at most a couple of lords from the Vale would follow him.

For a Targaryen invader who wants the backing of the lords of the Vale, it seems to me that it would be wiser to negotiate with Lord Royce than with Littlefinger

No, not necesarilly.

If Harry does become Lord of the Vale, he will be indebted by Petyr. The reason is Sansa. At the same time, once a Stark restoration rolls trough the North, it becomes inevitable that the Vale and the North Act together. And he wouldn't even need Sansa to be Lady of Winterfell. Family all around, and the same goes for the Riverlands, as she is a Tully trough Catelyn.

The point I'm making is that Sansa is his most valuable asset, once and if the Lannister regime is out of picture.

On 7/27/2023 at 1:01 PM, The hairy bear said:

He betrayed all his benefactors:

True, but:

On 7/27/2023 at 1:01 PM, The hairy bear said:

first Hoster Tully by deflowering his daughter,

Doesn't matter.

On 7/27/2023 at 1:01 PM, The hairy bear said:

Jon Arryn and Lysa by murdering them.

Doesn't matter either.

On 7/27/2023 at 1:01 PM, The hairy bear said:

He also betrayed the Starks (leading to Ned's execution)

Doesn't matter.

On 7/27/2023 at 1:01 PM, The hairy bear said:

the Lannisters (playing a part in Joffrey's murder),

He betrayed them in far too many ways to count, but they still don't matter.

Littlefinger made the mistake of actually entrusting Sansa with a lot of shit. If he can handle her, or at least be far enough to not suffer from the possible nuclear meltdown of intricacies caused by Sansa.

Varys, as we see it, shouldn't have anything against him, except the possible petty rivalry they may have had at court. If Petyr can offer a third of Westeros to Daenerys/Aegon, with possibly no strings attached, just for his survival and prevail, then I find no reason why anyone would object.

8 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

That's insane, it's art

I know. 

You can visit the builds, if you have the original version of the game. (Minecraft)

Bro, look up Westeroscraft.

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

That title does not depend on the Lannisters.

It does thou. Lady Shella Whent wa stripped of her title, and Petyr just recently got his hands on Harrenhal. There is noone in the world who would reinforce his claim over Harrenhal but the Lannisters, because he got it for doing something for them. My point is that if the Tullys were to be restored by anyone, he could hardly keep anything.

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

Harrenhal isn't worth that much to him.

Harrenhal and the lands belonging to it are jackpot. A long-term investment, sure, and it served his short-term goals well, but that doesn't mean he would just throw away a literal fortune because he simply doesn't care.

Harrenhal is worth to him as much as it is worth. And once things settle, it becomes much more than what it nowadays is.

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

Catelyn/Sansa isn't so much an ultimate goal as an unhealthy obsession.

I don't see how or why couldn't it be both.

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

He regards Sansa as his protege and future partner.  He'll teach her everything he knows, and she'll turn around and use those skills and knowledge to take him down.  She will realize he is venal, uncaring, depraved, and dangerous.

Any plans Littlefinger might have for supporting Aegon would depend on Sansa's cooperation, which would not necessarily be forthcoming.  Her interest is the North.  Kings Landing is in the rear view and likely to stay there.  By the way, her marriage to Tyrion could still be an obstacle to a remarriage.  It might get annulled, but that's not a foregone conclusion.  And if Sansa doesn't wish to remarry, she could easily drag her feet on the matter.

I am yet to see why things should play out this way. Because it's meant to be? 

What I'm saying is that bad people, for example, and especially people like Petyr could very easily end up on the ultimately winning side. We almost take it for granted that villains will all pay for what they did, but they almost never do. Not IRL, nor in Westeros.

5 hours ago, Aebram said:

Who are you referring to? I thought that the details of the murder conspiracy are still something of a mystery.

It isn't. The Tyrells did it, and Petyr at least knew around everything about it.

But what I was saying is that the Crown deemed Sansa as Tyrion's right hand in Joffrey's murder, making Sansa a public enemy of the Lannisters. 

Which makes Littlefinger lose his partnership with them, once he reveals who Alayne is.

On 6/29/2023 at 10:58 PM, The Commentator said:

Jon doesn’t deserve a good ending. He won’t get one.

Neither will you. Nor will I. 

38 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

In all seriousness, I think Littlefinger could maybe make it work under the Targaryens, but based on how Varys speaks of him I get the impression Varys doesn't trust him, which means that he could pre-emptively poison F/Aegon's opinion of him. Tyrion didn't trust him either, so Daenerys might be biased against him by the time she gets there. So he would have a lot of work to do to get them to see him in a favourable light.

Both Littlefinger and Varys think they are one step ahead of the other, and while we know how deep Varys can see, Petyr is a bigger mistery in these matters.

He's confident, and he is yet to make a mistake.

To me it seems, he is at the very leats a big enough obstacle that Varys wouldn't want to tackle, especially if he doesn't have to. 

And if the triple alliance of the Starks, Arryns and Tullys goes in motion (fully or partially), his death will hardly solve anything for Aegon/Daenerys, and with an increasing amount of attention needed to be paid to what's coming from beyond the Wall, it becomes quite obvious that all sides better reconcile than wage war in the Winter. Something they don't need the Others to see is  easily beneficial for both sides, with a little sacrifice and the burial of grudges.

Littlefinger, ever since he was bested by Brandon Stark in that infamous duel, has been constantly seeking ways of securing more and more power to his name.

He succeeded at breaking the steps of the societal ladder, but couldn't get what he ultimately wanted: Catelyn.

It doesn't take much to figure out that his ultimate goal had always been Catelyn's hand. However, since she's in her Lady Stoneheart period, and considered dead, it is Sansa who is the 'furtunate' inheritor of Littlefinger's attention and care. It does seem genuine (may or may not be romantic as well), and it feels like Petyr once again sees noone ahead of him he couldn't cross, or wouldn't want to. 

He wants Tyrion dead, but he harbors Joffrey's murderer, whom he intends to put in charge of Winterfell. It's easy to see he wants to get on Sansa's good side: His power comes from the Lordship of Harrenhal and the overlordship of the Riverlands, but it was given to him by the Lannisters, who don't seem too likely to keep the crown. There's nothing and noone to reassure him of this position thou, and considering that the other half of his power comes from his regency over Robert Arryn (whom he sees as a dead man walking), it's easy to se4e he can lose it all.

But that's just another reason to be on Sansa's good side, once she becomes a player, who, besides the North and Winterfell, has a good claim on the Riverlands as well as on Harrenhal (altough an alive Edmure is much more likely to get all that back), through her grandmother, Minisa Whent (altough Robert Arryn is already a stronger claimant, being a male). Just the domains of Petyr.

Either way, the ground is slippery under him, and he desperately needs a confirmation of his authority over almost everything he owns, once the Lannisters are done in King's Landing. But it's not like they aren't in his way too.

So what I'm ultimately asking is: Is there a reason why he, and his plans couldn't fit into whatever Varys has been planning for the Targaryens? 

The two reasons I see are Tyrion and Daenerys' thirst for blood.

Tyrion IS married to Sansa, but that marriage is relatively easy to dispose of, even with a Tyrion who returns to Westeros.

And of course, if Daenerys ever gets to Westeros, she should be over her "I will avenge my family on anyone I find" period, especially because of Tyrion.

So, does anyone see why wouldn't Littlefinger couldn't fit his own visions and plans into Varys'/an invading Targaryen's? Or why Varys wouldn't allow that?

And could he actually dodge all the bullets, and make it to the 'winning' side, along with his protegee, Sansa? He is a player, after all, and his skillset makes him more than capable of pulling this much off.

No.

It's the genius of George that makes you dislike Sansa intially, and it's still his genius that makes the reader realise that she doesn't need to be forgiven for her mistakes, because she is a child.

Catelyn is a little different. A lot of people see her as the worst, which is unrealistic. Nobody of the main characters lost as much as she. Her mistakes and flaws are understandable.

Daenerys, on the other hand, is always filled with good intentions, but things don't go her way, or her solutions are shallow to begin with.

I guess they all fulfill the requirements for the 'Flawed' category, more or less.

I'm honestly much more bothered by people who think certain characters don't need a reality check on their behaviours and actions. Be it Daenerys, Stannis, Arya, Tyrion or Jon Snow. (These are the characters who get the most simps claiming they are 100% on the right, and they always get there by ignorance.)

But I don't think sexism is any bigger of a problem here (right now), than it is IRL.

If I had to bet on wether Jon or Quentyn is alive after the injuries they suffered, I'd place my bet on neither, because both are 100% dead, and if GRRM was to tell me that one of the two is alive, I'd go with Quentyn. 

18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think Daeron is remembered necessarily in a positive way.

Here's the things he's remembered for: 

1. He's had two terrible persons as older brothers.
2. He was forced into collaborating with Hugh and Ulf, whom he despised for their amorality, along with everyone else.
3. He has avenged the death of his nephew.
4. He had a cool nickname, and stayed humble in his victory.
5. He rode a dragon. (again cool)
6. He died an unfortunate death, and had a clean enough name to have pretenders pretend to be him, after a Black victory.

I'm not saying he was ever widely considered a shining beacon of chivalry, but the guy definitely had an overall good reception to his name after his death.

What he did at Bitterbridge isn't considered, by Westerosi standards, as something he shouldn't have done, a taboo even in wartime. It is seen as another unfortunate situation of the conflict, and it is actually not so much different to what happens every single time it comes down to war in ASOIAF.

On 7/18/2023 at 5:59 PM, SeanF said:

It's hard to say what is the correct standard in these books.

Even the nicest leaders are war criminals, if you're judging them according to the standards of the Hague and Geneva Conventions as currently interpreted.

Executions without trial, taking hostages, torture for information, pillage, arson, employment of child soldiers,  sacking strongholds that are taken by storm, are practised on all sides.  But it would be daft to hold people to human rights standards that are hundreds of years in the future.

IMHO war crimes (in this world) are wanton murder, rape, torture for fun, breach of guest right (on the part of either host or guest) , breach of the terms of surrender, murder of prisoners (nobody is required to accept a surrender, but if prisoners are taken, their lives ought to be safe) , sacking a stronghold that offers no resistance, oathbreaking.

A lot of war crimes in this world involve perfidy.

 

Well, yes, but the point I was making is that Daeron isn't condemned for in any special way for what he did, altough he clearly did something horrible. 

Yes, the book does describe him in this sequence in a worse light than usually, but it basically comes up to you saying: "Well, yea, he came and slaughtered us, but what can you do? The guy's a prince, and has a dragon too. It is what it is." 

It's not much different to any other military campaign, where nobles give a round zero fucks about the life of peasants, when they need them sacrificed.

And I'm not here to defend Daeron, just here to point out that this goes all around, regarding everyone, and it's been the way things went IRL too. In a catholic on catholic armed conflict, the lives of the catholic peasantry rarely ever mattered to the nobility, or even the Church itself (which was humanitarian (and even then only for their own) in like 10% of scenarios, while it still had political weight).

And it's not like people in charge were always unaware that they control their own kind, who are capable of the same level of feeling and thinking. Sure supremacist and elitist ideas always existed troughout history, but they simply developed a conscious ignorange towards these issues.

On 4/21/2023 at 10:06 PM, Craving Peaches said:

But that's the problem. The village was not responsible. A few individuals were and they were punished according to the law of the land. There was no one left alive who was responsible at that point.

True, but was X village(r) responsible for the kidnapping of Lyanna? Or the murder of Brandon and Rickard?

No, yet noone bothered to make a point about their deaths, just as noone did regarding the also innocent citizens of Bitterbridge, once the damage was done.

In-universe, you could make a religious argument, saying the damage done to the church is a huge sin in the eyes of God(s), but overall what Daeron did is just something that the blanket of feudalism doesn't entirely cover up for us, unlike many other characters' ignorance, wrath and arbitration, including our favorites and most beloved. 

17 hours ago, sifth said:

To be honest my biggest issue with the ages comes from the Mercy chapter; where 11 year old Arya is seducing a grown man. While reading that chapter I had to imagine Raff was a pedo for it to make sense.

Well, the part literally exists to disturb you.

But to put that away, I think it should entirely be possible for Arya, with her training focusing on posing as others, to pose as someone slightly older than herself (we're talking 3-4 years here).

I don't think Raff is a pedo for what he did (or intended to do with a young girl who claims she works in the industry). We've seen worse from him, and thank fucking God he can't exceed the stuff he did anymore.

2 hours ago, sifth said:

It honestly should have always been that way. All of the kids act older than they should, the younger ones in particular. I love GRRM, but the guy clearly doesn't spend enough time around kids, to know the way they think.

Well, yes and no.

While I agree that the characters would've been much better off with an additional (for example) 2 years to begin with, I think many people do also not give credit to how emocionally developed kids can be.

Two weeks ago I was volunteering in a summer camp for kids (12-14 yo children), and even thou I never had a low opinion on the level of their development mentally, it was a bit of a shock to see how mature, understanding or consciously bad they can be, while also being on par with my popcultural knowledge (which I can humbly claim to be unusually developed) for me to feel comfortable talking to these kids. And I'm 21.

What I mean is that the characters are capable of developing the maturity they show off. What's unrealistic is the responsibility adult people are willing to leave on their shoulders. 

Sure, there were young people throughout history with great achievements, but people in positions of power like Jon Snow or Daenerys always had so much stuff taken care of by others that we see these characters handle directly. Like, if you are 20 or under in high medieval Europe, you can be the lovechild of the Pope and the Queen of England, you won't lead an army alone. You can get into leading armies at, say 16 (absolute minimum), but you would have an army of experienced commanders surrounding you, who feel entitled to their position, where they have the power to influence your decisions, since they actually know what is actually up.

A good reference would be Edward the Black Prince.

2 hours ago, James Arryn said:

My 3 year old twins play this game where one shouts “Blue is better!” and the other one acts exasperated and says “No, Pink is better!” And they laugh, and go back and forth, each acting more and more fed up with the other’s refusal to see the obvious.

It ain't like adult people don't do the same. I would bring up how football ultras/fans work, vot I don't have to dig that deep, because most people nowadays root for politicians and parties the way only football fans should support their own team: Blindly, and always.

There isn't a difference between that and what we (quite) often have here, I'd say it's even more of a  chaotic nonsense, because the two are not opposing sides, and will most likely have a deeply intertwined and cooperative story together, once they meet up. Or at least they're meant to, we might not live long enough to see that.

Lem Lemoncloak is Rhaegar himself. 

Since Richard Lonmouth was a good friend of Rhaegar, he got in his armor and died at the Trident, whispering Rhaegar's name, which can easily sound like the feminine valyrian version (Rhaenys, Rhaenyra, Rhaena, etc.) of the name.

Rhaegar, after this, decided to go to the TOJ, but Ned got there faster, Lyanna died, and so he became a hedge knight, plotting his return, posing as a poser of his deceased friend for reasons I'm not telling you, because my story is already too credible.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Possibly some issues when the male parent isn't Targ also, Rhaego was born disfigured, resembling a dragon & while I know MMD's magic may have had something to do with it, this isn't the first time a Targ baby was born this way. I've not looked back to see if it tends to happen when the baby isn't full Targ though. 

Visenya (daughter of Rhaenyra and Daemon) was born disfigured. I would say they count as incest.