Castellan

When I considered myself a chocoholic, I could never understand people who say they are chocoholics and then say they have have chocolate in the fridge. If I buy chocolate, it ends up in me, not a fridge, and pretty damn quick. I seem to have aged out of chocoholism, though. I can now pass it by, amazing! I will join you by trying to eat sensibly, which I pretty well do, but do it more consistently and no lapses, so that maybe I will lose a small amount of weight. Also I will resume my morning walks which have fallen by the wayside.

I think Petyr hides his cards and its hard to know if he even likes Sansa. He might be aiming to ultimately marry her but the Tyrells and Tywin were also keen to capture her as a political tool.

I agree that Olenna and Margaery poisoned the wine. I personally think it was a shared enterprise and that Olenna could have passed the crystal to Margaery as she is in the best position to get it into the chalice unseen and to choose her moment. In the quote supplied upthread, GRRM says this is what the careful reader will think and then adds he has two more books to write and there may be some surprises. I think there is so much evidence for it that if that turns out not to be true it would be a really cheap HA! I TRICKED YOU! reveal. I can picture something like Petyr has made them THINK they poisoned him while really arranging a more certain dispatch, or, more likely, that we just don't know yet everything that was going on. Thematically part of what makes his clues that Margaery and Olenna did it is just the old 'poison is a woman's weapon'. And in this case with a woman's motive. From the point of view of their house, its a great alliance. From Margaery and Olenna's view, it is an unacceptable one. Olenna is not going to let her granddaughter marry and sadistic and erratic husband. And the solution is obvious - Joffrey has a brother. Instead of trying to measure the seconds required to do this and that, I take account of the characters as they've been shown so far, and their behaviour. Margaery and Olenna's reactions to the choking seem well rehearsed. Margaery gasps out her line "He's choking!" ("not poisoned, but choking" and Olenna then takes charge Her grandmother moved to her side. "Help the poor boy!" the Queen of Thorns screeched, in a voice ten times her size. "Dolts! Will you all stand about gaping? Help your king!"and in a stenatorian voice tells all to Help your king! (aren't I helpful trying to save Joffrey?) and then after a few paragraphs of description of Joffrey's ghastly end Margaery Tyrell was weeping in her grandmother's arms as the old lady said, "Be brave, be brave." (Keep yourself together and stick to the plan! Be strong like me!) But later, they are a bit let down a bit by their family who are not in the know. When Joffrey has been pried from his mothers arms and drops lifeless to the floor: The High Septon knelt beside him. "Father Above, judge our good King Joffrey justly," he intoned, beginning the prayer for the dead. Margaery Tyrell began to sob, and Tyrion heard her mother Lady Alerie saying, "He choked, sweetling. He choked on the pie. It was naught to do with you. He choked. We all saw." That's a very strange way to comfort someone! No-one has suggested its Margaery's fault. Its almost enough to make me think Alerie is in on the plot. But I think that Alerie knows her daughter very well and recognises her sobbing from childhood as caused by a sense of guilt and fear of being in trouble. She starts this sobbing when the High Septon starts to pray for Joffrey to be justly judged. The idea of judgement may be what brings on her sobbing. Also, the Tyrells seem to make too much of Margaery having drunk from the chalice. Its self evident but Mace can't shut up about it. I think the women folk have got it into his head and now it can't be got out!

I basically think it was poison from the necklace dropped in the chalice by Margaery at a suitable point, such as after she has had a long drink. However the way Tyrion's piece of pie is dropped into proceedings at a key point looks like GRRM is deliberately creating a bit of confusion, or that there could be more to the plot than we know. I'm only toying with this notion. I think the idea that there is more going on than we know about is more appealing than that Olenna and Margary weren't trying to poison him. its noteworthy that Tyrion's piece is placed down in front of him. I therefore don't see a problem with why others weren't poisoned etc. We don't see it cut out of a communal pie - the sword is only used to open the novelty pie full of birds. The actual pigeon pie comes from the kitchen. It could have poison shoved into the middle as it was brought out. And the serving man who brings it spoons lemon cream on top - the poison could be in that. Petyr seems like the one person who would like Tyrion dead, to free Sansa for useful marriages, and because Tyrion was the one person to work out what Petyr was up to as master of coin, and must have in general have freaked him out a little as the only person almost as cunning as himself tin KL. I had thought Petyr was happy at the idea that Tyrion would become the scapegoat for Joffrey's poisoning and be executed, but poison would make sure he was dead. Petyr is someone with a network, in the chaotic wedding I am sure he could either have someone already on place as a servant or just get someone to walk in to the kitchen, take a piece of pie and sauce, and walk out. The lemon cream could be where the poison is. Sansa in contrast has no motive and I don't think she has suppressed memories. her demeanour for a lot of the banquet - distracted, off in a world of her own - fits with her wondering when her escape opportunity will come and whether she will manage it. The flaw in the idea of poison in the pie is that Joffrey's symptoms are those of the strangler. And the wiki article emphasies that the strangler is absorbed on contact with the wall of the throat and acts immediately, and it implies that it needs to be dissolved in wine. If placed in a pie or even the thick lemon sauce, there is a good chance it would be ingested without really touching the throat. So I don't know if I believe any of the above just couldn't help toying with the idea. It seems clear GRRM has orchestrated a sort of ballet with people moving about the room, with the singers and entertainers providing a ghastly accompaniment, and the dangers of Joffrey's uncontrollable behaviour building to the climax of his attack on Tyrion, and death. is this just all for the skill of writing such a dramatic scene or is he holding back some secrets for a later reveal?

Oh well, I don't think they are that peculiar. Pouring out the wine - On first read, I read it as Tyrion is as stunned as everybody else, and struggling to think given his drunkenness. I thought he took the chalice as he felt in need of wine. It seemed a natural, slightly unthinking action to me to pour out the wine, he may have thought 'it could be poison' at that moment, and turned his idea of drinking it into pouring it out because its dangerous. However, I now I think it is staring at the colour of the dregs left in there that has triggered his brain into making the connection with Sansa's hairnet. And if Sansa is implicated, so might he be. Or he may feel sympathy with her. I definitely think he has made some connection when he looks at the wine - it reminds me of the moment at the wedding breakfast where he stares at Joffrey after Joffrey boasts about being familiar with Valyrian steel, making the connection that it was Joffrey who sent the catspaw after Bran. His savage response to Jaime is triggered by Jaime's confession to him re Tysha. Tyrion is absolutely horrified. Of all the ghastly treatment he has received by Tywin and Joffrey, nothing approaches this revelation. He has joined in gang raping his wife. And this was caused by a lie told by the one family member he trusts. All Jaime can do is stammer that he didn't know it would happen. Tyrion wants to hurt Jaime as much as possible and can only do it with words at this point. He is denying the bond they have had and implying it was never there, by saying he killed Joffrey. Of course, the fact that he did make that connection about the catspaw also gives him a motive for killing Joffrey. Because he let Joffrey know he knows. And Joffrey could be expected to get back at Tyrion, once his initial fear wears off (Joffrey is quite taken aback in the moment, and just wants to end the conversation and leave). Likewise, it could have triggered Joffrey into trying to poison Tyrion and somehow poisoning himself! And so the theorizing goes on.....

I think so too but I was a bit alarmed by the logistic details @Gilbert Green pointed out.

Hmm I reread and agree that Lady S seems most likely to have stayed in the cave while the men took the three out to be hanged. I personally don't think her presence is necessary for Brienne to have been cut down. But they would certainly have dragged Brienne back to Lady S rather than just say 'OK you said Sword, you can go' so Brienne and Lady S have certainly have had some more conversation. I think its reasonable to hope they cut the others down too although that depends on those soldiers seeing them as a package which they didn't when convicting them. Brienne would certainly have screamed 'Pod too' once she was cut down but that may have been too late. Its quite possible Lady S would see the additional value of at least Pod as a hostage against Brienne's return, as Brienne has pleaded for him in particular. Lady S may have sought Brienne's vow to get Jaime but surely additional incentives are welcome. Its odd that she has become a different creature, yet would still rely at all on Brienne's vow. I suppose its a chance, at least, to get Jaime, which is a greater obsession than killing Brienne. So, given the issue of Lady S not being present and Brienne screaming sword with what appears to be her absolute last breath, do you think she's undead? raised by Beric at Lady S's instrutction? And what do you think she and jaime are up to? I presume its all been argued somewhere, so you can just point me to that if you like

Pimples and styes: I wasn't commenting on any similarity to Edric just pointing out that Pod is unprepossessing and easily dismissed by other characters in the books but has the makings of a fighter. He has a pimple when seen through Sansa'a eyes, I forget when the stye comes in, maybe when Brienne meets him. Yes it might make sense for Jaime and Brienne to go somewhere else rather than into the hands of Lady S. But I think Brienne will want to save Pod, she couldn't stand to see him hang - that was how she rationalised her decision to choose 'sword'.

He has a sty and a pimple (both temporary phenomena, I agree!) is scrawny with nondescript hair and suffers from social terror that makes him stammer and hardly able to put a whole sentence together. Like Sam, and Brienne, he is a character who is dismissed by many around him but nevertheless, guess what, gets through by sheer persistence or whatever talents they do have. He is type that GRRM seems quite keen on. I can see why there is a temptation to go from Egg was a secet targ and ended up King therefore Pod should echo this pattern but I really don't want to think he will turn out to have some fantastic secret heritage. It would kind of spoil the whole point of his character and persistence. Its possible he'd end up head of house Payne because of the war and upheaval of the times, that's about as far as I want to speculate. Interesting events have got to come out of the return of Jaime and Brienne to the BWB camp and he'll be involved in those I assume as Brienne's squire. And I think that if the last book is ever written, at the end the major characters will mostly be dead and already turning into legend and there may be only a few of the youngest characters left to remember them, and Pod could be one of those.

Re the OP question, I think its so they are entirely dedicated to the job in the way priests and nuns are or the soldiers of the nights watch. No family to put first, etc, no wealth to defend. If not, they could see their job as a investment in later profit and position. Especially if they came from reasonably powerful houses, they could look forward to marrying late, taking an active role in promoting their houses, and they'd have the Kings secrets from all those years of guarding him.

On first reading I had the impression that what with double standards re sex Lynesse was what would be referred to as a slut and her father was keen to get her married off and sent to Bear Island where she could not embarrass him. A naive chap like Jorah falling head over heels was probably a Godsend. I can't be bothered re-reading to see if this is correct or something I imagined.

No I meant he won't be dead! Definitely not yet, anyway. Not sure about your reversals. More like variations. I don't know if Dunk is stupid. He is slow in speech and thought but not unobservant and he is resourceful. And his muscle is such an asset he'd be a fool to go with anything else. Dunk is supposed to have some giant blood and Brienne is his descendant, so I'd say they are really quite similar. Like Dunk Brienne prefers physical action. Brienne is awkward in speech and thought, but she is quite bright and more quick in thought than Dunk. But Brienne has had more advantages, education, stability and exposure to fancier ways of thinking than Dunk. Dunk cannot remember any family and grew up on the streets. I'd agree Aegon is innately smarter than Dunk but he has also been raised and educated at court so has an entirely more sophisticated view of things, and confidence. Pod stammers and is so socially backward he can hardly talk or look at people when he does so. He and Brienne have much in common in this. Jaime initially finds her social awkwardness very painful and in fact, rude. But I don't think Pod has the same innate physicality as Dunk, as he just has to rely on himself. The times he saved Tyrion and Brienne it wasn't through strength but by seizing tools to hand that did the job. So it may be inside all that stammering he is quite astute.

In response to these secret identity posts I was pondering how Egg was an egg that hatched and grew into a dragon, and thinking that if Pod has a secret identity, he can still only grow into less exciting vegetable matter. I looked up which trees reproduce by pods, and there are quite a few classics that I think are among the house sigils - oak, maple, elm etc. But what focused my attention in my googling was the use of the phrase “Have you ever wondered which trees release those ‘helicopter’ seeds?” And I thought that is how Pod relates to his name. The pods dangle precariously at the edge of their tree and then drop off so they can travel away from the parent tree to find space to grow. Their path is somewhat random and out of their control. I was dedicated enough to watch this kids video with Squeaks all about seed pods! Pods are blown away in the wind, or hook onto animals and get carried for a while, or like coconuts, drop into water and get carried away, or get eaten and expelled. As the title says, they travel the world! So Pod may have overtones of: 1. at present only a seed container, but will grow into something different; but also 2. something blown by the wind or rolled about the ground of dropped into the water, so that it can have a chance to plant and grow.

Don't worry! Although I somehow think he won't.

That's it. I presume this has been noticed before but I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere. I was staring at a pod and it drifted into my brain that a pod is very akin to an egg. Despite all the many ways that Brienne's journey beautifully echos Dunk's, I had not really focused on the youngsters that trail along with them, and the similarity of their names. I was wondering what Pod's future would be when this drifted in. Obviously he is showing true grit and has so far killed two rather horrible people defending Tyrion and then Brienne, and I wondered if he'd end up in the KG or something by the end of the series, not that I'd wish that on him. Perhaps as the most remote cousin he'll end up sole survivor and head of House Payne.

Oh well it turns out running a game is a very good diagostic tool for dementia. It is true I have done all these things in the past, but this time I am doing them all in the first round!

When I first read about him I did very much hope he'd survive but I'm really not counting on it. His parents should have made some excuse to leave him behind instead of taking him to the wedding.

Oh OK, you people are fussy! AND I'VE ADDED A 4TH LETTER COMBINATION TO THE INITIAL LIST ABOVE

Round 2 Daeneyrus is running for Queen of Westeros. Like Stannis, we cannot know if she’ll respect the result. Although she was last seen wandering the desert with one dragon and perhaps facing capture, I think you can make your own decisions about what her situation is when she campaigns and what assets she can claim to bring. What is her slogan? PFT CJTP LWMF PSOWR Entries due 3 November

Round 1 entries 1. Verified Royalty. Uncertainty’s Obliterator. 2. I'm rightful heir. Praise Stannis! 3. Purity of Fiery Iron 4. Won’t kneel yieldingly. 5. VOTE R'HLLOR'S UNDISPUTED OVERACHIEVER! 6, Warrior King - Yours. 7. I’m Red: honored, powerful, sensational! Vote for your favourite three in thread. Round 2 task coming soon.

Yes that's fine

Not so many entries in yet but you do have till Wednesday so I really shouldn't be nagging... I have to say the wikipedia entry I linked above showed that often campaign slogans are less than dazzling. I am sure Stannis could do better than most of them!

Hi yes as Ser has said, a game of acrophobia is just starting so check out the thread he has linked and join in round 1.

Round 1 Stannis is running for King of Westeros! We can only wonder at his motives for entering an election as he is absolutely sure his is the one true heir of Robert Baratheon, but he has shown some flexibility up north with Jon. Perhaps he will bide by the result, perhaps not.... Perhaps he will show surprising skill in appealing to the voters, perhaps not..... We can only wait and see what he comes up with as a campaign slogan. Make a slogan from one of these sets of letters and send it to me in a PM Deadline is a week from the date of this post. (i.e. Wednesday 20 September) Message me if you need an extension. Have fun! POFI I R H P S VRUO WKY

Hmmm it says this is a log running investigation - my first thought was you charge Trump et al through racketeering laws we will do the same to protesters. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/61-indicted-in-georgia-on-racketeering-charges-connected-to-stop-cop-city-protests