Hugorfonics

I used to sincerely believe Loras was faking it and not burnt at all but plotting and is three moves ahead. Then I fell down the rabbit hold of Quentyn. Having pulled myself out Im now of the conclusion that they're both pizza bread

Lol, wild. We're a mess too. Oh, lol of course. But the Tories lose after the war right? And there were always some Whigs in parliament anyway. But for sure I agree its likely the King just agreed with his majority but, he was definitely antagonistic, he tells John Adams something along the lines of like "I was the last person who wanted to see you leave but we can still be friends" and then shit talked representative republics a bit .Its a bit more complicated I think. For sure specific characters like Madison or Washington or whomever retrofitted their ideas, they honestly probably just wanted fame and money in the beginning, and I agree they got radicalized then. But then youve got some like Jefferson or the populace whose reading works like Common Sense who I dont think were retrofitting ideas. They were just ideas. So like, in 1775 the average American may just be mad about taxes but within a year or two hed realize that like being forced to provide board for the oversees military was neve mundane. Same kinda with France, but probably not really. I dont think anything was mundane or retrofitted, although it was definitely radicalized. Lol, thats a good point. Cool. Thanks! Intresting stuff. Tbh it sounds like the British crown is still more than just a figurehead and honestly more powerful then I thought. I mean I get what your saying that mock resignation is just political theater, but that still requires political actors. (Yea that was Boris, right? I think I remember that... Good stuff that the courts ruled it illegal but wild imo that it could even happen.) Are kings allowed to lobby? Did George lobby for Churchill? Has Charles III or Liz recently? Like how far can they go? A public handshake, a speech on their campaign tour?

Sounds like U.K these days (The north as in New England? They just wanted equal representation in parliament) Word, but this lese-majeste outlook is in essence super tyrannical. Right? It's a boujee word that literally means "respect my authority", its not about fairness or sensibility. Yea for sure, I get that. (In America Washington pulled that move and later Teddy although there it backfired). It's not that over here Lord North is perceived as a good guy, he's more perceived as just a tool for the king. It's just that the idea that the king is chill but the crooked ministers are the problem is a very medieval mindset which the "enlightened" founding fathers were steering away from. And no doubt, the ministers could be crooked but in actuality the king did support the antagonism. A question I have though is when did the monarch lose this power? Like if Sunak wanted to resign, I can't imagine Charles III saying no, like at all. I thought it was during Glorious times but this is after, was it Victoria? Although they say if Edward VIII never resigned then UK woulda probably submitted to the Nazis or perhaps generally the Axis, is that from a political power or just like a inspirational thing? Or do you think that's just bullshit?

Lol Aw, that turned sad Lord North tried to resign a few times before and during the war but George kept saying no. That's why in America we say the monarch was the tyrant and not the minister who kept trying to quit.

I agree. And great post! Picking up on Catelyn's depression like that, this is the first I've heard that mentioned but it clicked like it was it tailormade. Bran as well, I think that's an on point diagnosis. Also totally agree about the shaming. Tyrion in adwd is slipping off his rocker as Dany is throughout the story, both are fundamentally good people who do good in the world, like Cat and her kids. In fact I think the internal struggle of mental illness is a great story device as well. Arya shows troubling signs almost immediately. The Kindly Man calls her out on it too, she's not Batman. She can't just do whatever the hell she wants like there are no rules in society. Can this be rationalized and understood, sure, but she throws up red flags. Sansa has not gotten over reimagining her life, and I disagree with the assessment that she realizes LF has two faces. She should but she didn't, she convinces herself (in contrast with her sister who denies an establishment) that she's in the right place. (I should say though, that this is remarkably Eddard like, whos genes she certainly has but that's not Tully) Bran is a cannibal who treats his stableboy like a playstation, Rickon doesn't really have screen time but when he did he was bouncing off the walls. Again, to reiterate, I love the Stark kids and think they're all good folk but seriously and fundamentally, struggling. And then compounded with the insanity of Lysa and frankly Lord Robert and the Bat Lady of Harrenhal I do think this thread has some legs.

Ahh, I see. Well, either way, Roberts conversations with Ned makes it clear that he can't just simply divorce the almost 40 year old like her surname doesn't spin the globe. Mace is hysterically stupid.

Oh it's hare! I always thought it was hair That's literally Ned's only reaction Pycelle and Cersei are overly paranoid about Cersei. Stannis and Varys I don't think took it seriously, they were just aware that Renly was trying. Robert is fully aware that Cersei infiltrated his government and in all matters he's highly compromised and reduced to a puppet. Realism is what's stopping him from replacing her, not a pretty face. Ahh good point, if it was Mace's scheme he would have already made preliminary moves one year after the plot became knowledge. Yea, it could go any number of ways (I think Pycelle looking through the mail is the most likely). Although how did Stannis find out? It wasnt the best kept secret.

It tries to. The thing is, it's so stupid. Even for Renly, it's hair brained and ill conceived, which makes me think it's Mace's scheme as he was born wearing a dunce cap. How Pycelle got involved in this scheme im pretty curious about, did Renly approach him or did he just simply read Renlys mail? One year.

What if GRRM just

I think the theory goes that if he wasn't such a meaningless character he wouldn't have had such a meaningless job. It's possible that Renly could have defeated Tywin and taken KL, anything is possible. But I have a hard time seeing that happen as he made absolutely no play in that direction. But if Tyrell and their pet do take it, and fast forward to affc times I don't see what chance they have in ruling Bolton or Greyjoy, not to mention Martell and Arryn and of course Stark and Tully. To the OP. He's not a fighter, but neither is Tyrion or the peacock I bet so I think Stannis could find some occupation in the Second Sons. That is until Dany offers them new leadership or disintegration. Who's Ben? Captain Stannis! (Cue theme song) I don't see Stannis changing sides so, he'd probably just be chilling in Meereen, eventually Dany will go home and then Stannis with her where he can save the wall or bbq some leeches or kill Renly or whatever

Yea for sure, like in Imperial China the elite ruling class considered merchants to be scum of the earth but that didnt stop them from building and maintaining the silk road. Although, I don't think Dothraki despise it. They just, idk, don't speak English. Give a give get a gift is definitely their motto, although sometimes they receive tribute so thatd mean get a gift and leave. The dude who chopped Jaime's hand off, right? Who's the other one? Exiled Dothraki Id think would be a regular thing, just lay low outside the sea till the heat dies down. But for sure, plenty of money to be made as a sellsword or whatever trade so there's definitely some concept of getting paid

Everyone trades everything They don't have to bring anything, they facilitate the markets and tax it. Bells, swords, clothing. Everyone wants stuff What does this mean? The markets are vibrant. Of course they do. Asoiaf starts with Viserys' trade. They don't have our specific word and they don't use currency like we do, but, they trade all the time

Yea they get gifts of salt silver and seed. That's taxes and then they police the markets. It's clearly a highly functioning and efficient market... But why get the stuff elsewhere when they bring you stuff? And they trade like everything, food clothes spices gems ivory tiger pelts and Dornish wine, like why should they not want this stuff? Its like what Renly said They can convince themselves, but nobody is saying no to Drogon

It's taxed. All traders pay the Dothraki for the privilege. They don't understand our version of buying and selling, true. But they clearly of some concept of something. To say Dothraki don't utilize trade networks is obviously wrong. Easy targets

His son was supposed to figure it out. Aemon was telling Sam how he and Rhaegar figured out that his son was supposed to figure it out.

What? They host the largest market in the world

Drogos dead. Dany wants to be queen, it's like asking why would Tommen raid Westeros That's the only motivation. It you give them stuff they won't raid. I didn't read the article because it looks long but from the limited information we do have of Dothraki culture is they only to raiding and warring and stuff when the gods permit. Which the DK them when that is. Probably when foods and supplies run low. As opposed to the Freefolk who raid because they think it's cool, however even with this information Jon wants to invite in the refugees because he has no problem foraging a mult cultural regime. As long as they don't dick em around like the Romans did everything should be copacetic. And Jon rode with the Freefolk for like a week, Dany for a year, so she knows what she's doing

According to Dothraki custom they follow the strong. Shes already been leading a khalisar. Why would they raid there? This is the same nonsensical argument that Bowen and Mace make, that historic raiders are only capable of raiding. We have a good look at Dornish culture and they clearly aren't savages, a decent look at the freefolk and they too have honor. As long as the Dothraki are paid and fed, like a human, theyll be chill

There's nothing in the fine print demanding a need for a spouse, and besides she has one. And shes not turning them into construction workers. Drogo planned on crossing the sea so it's not like it does not compute, also the stallion that mounts the world is supposed to conquer all the Dothraki which would put an end to in house raiding and killing. In reality Dany already ended the old Dothraki way. Unless Slavers Bay is reinstituted the Dothraki need to find a new job and Dany is hiring

And what is it do you think makes them Dothraki? Shes not foreign She is the stallion that mounts the world. Dothraki culture is about horsemanship and religion and the stars. Dany doesn't want to get rid of the stars

Tyrion. That he waddles up to her with his stupid grim while she's surrounded by her father's knights, if she didn't arrest him I don't wanna really say sacrilegious because she never actually made this connection, but it would be foolish and regrettable. Iirc the Vale wildlings attacked as soon as the conversation hit 120 seconds, and then when the battle was finished Tyrion made a slightly amusing but mainly disgusting joke about Cat with her sellswords Bronn and them, so after that Cat was in no mood to talk to Tyrion while Tyrion felt momentum and looked for retribution. Lol like Stannis!

That was extremely impressive. Woah. Yea I expect a Dothraki battle against Westerosi to be like half Agincourt half Mohi. They're just too god damn impressive

I was super confused, I thought you meant the 90s Travolta spy thriller lol. No I never saw it but I just glanced at wiki, it's about the Apache and not the Comanche, no?

There was this newspaper article from the 1800s in like Colorado or Texas or that general area and it was about I think during Comanche peace talks, the children who came to town were half naked picking up garbage, like tin cans of soup or beer or whatever, and you know it was some old fashioned derogatory white man's burden shit, poor kids who are naked pagans fascinated with garbage. But in reality it was the summer in the desert and they were spiritual sure and of course they were picking up scrap metal, that goes to their mom who makes arrows for their dad who will break peace talks with these powerful 19th century industrial nations and successfully raid/ enslave in their "bronze age" fashion. Buffalo shields and spears and if course the bow and arrow, mixed with the occasional century old musket and conquistador armor. Dothraki, like Comanche can't be bronze age. Before the fall of Valayria and the migration of horses after the fall of Spanish colonial America, there's a decent argument to make, although it should be pushed even further back to hunter gatherer. But fast forward 100 years and they're living in the middle of a war zone and rule it. Speed and land and elements can outweigh technology but that's not to say that Comanche shields can't stop bullets or Dothraki swords arent internationally renown. The Comanche really are the core of inspiration, back in the olden times when GRRM watched olden movies and olden tv I bet they were mostly cowboys where the Comanche are almost always the bad guys. And then yea, they live on the prairie, enslave, badass, feared and powerful. Hardly a confederation, half naked, don't build, ruthless. It's really just the Khan khal that throws everyone off. Eta. Although 100% Bloodriders are a peach garden oath!

Yea for sure. Crazy. It's 2023 not 1923.( Also, I kinda feel like in Cat and Sansas pov we witness the plot moving more then most) Now having said that I kinda do wonder how much of the pushback on Catelyn is based on misogynism. Like, this lady should know her place and not get into politics or make the decisive family decisions. She does open the story scolding her husband on how to do his job, I read that as a constructive partnership where they were frustrated but yeah I also wasn't trained to think women are crazy and jealous or whatever. See I don't understand. Not that I don't identify with Jon, I kinda do, don't really like him that much but obviously I was jaw on the floor when Cat tried to stop him from saying goodbye, and then then subsequent shit talking. Horrific Stepmom behavior (or whatever dark ages words applicable). But, my main guy is Tyrion and when she arrested him I was like "hell yeah!" Somebody tried to kill Bran! Like, her goal was the goal of the plot, Cats sometimes mean and Tyrions funny but I root for, you know justice or whatever. Especially so early in the story. Although I never really got either how you can hate a fictional character, especially one written so well as the ones are in asoiaf. Like there are a few characters I disagree with constantly but hates a strong word and at the end of the day I'm glad they're in the story. If the Kingsroad had too many Lannister soldiers on it then KL is a non starter. Tbh I don't think she knew her second step, only her first, take the gift the gods have sent and arrest him. Now of course Cat didn't know her sister was into treason and murder and all around batshit crazy, if she did she wouldn't have gone there, or Winterfell or KL. Idk where she'd take him but she has to take him. It's a three minute conversation, they had two of it when Tyrion told her he doesn't bet against Jaime and 60 more seconds of that should have cleared up the mess. But Tyrion would prefer to use his phone call to make a joke and Lysa is batshit crazy. When Cats recapping the conversation with Jaime she doesn't even remember what the story is because it's so filled with holes. I don't remember, what happens to the smallfolk that Brynden threw out? The ones Edmure put in. When Frey and Lannister put RR to siege the smallfolk were harassed or BWB?