Targaryens aren't super human

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

You thibk Dany was the crucial factor? To me, MMD worked more magic in that pyre than Dany. She just took advantage of it.

That theory doesn't add anything to plot vs. Dany being the key to bringing back dragons back into the world.

Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.

This is correct on how Dany brought dragons back, I doubt MMD worked any magic.

She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo’s copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin. “…want to wake the dragon…”

Rhaego's death gave the dragons life (Nissa Nissa) and helped wake them from stone.

MMD had nothing to do with the dragons, her death is what hatched the dragons, Rhaego's death gave them life.

Dany's presence in the fire was fulfilling the prophecy.

[The Dornishman's Widow]

You claimed that Drogon was eating the pitmaster. He wasn't.

The board was standing right next to Barsena. You seem to be under an impression that a burst of fire aimed at a specific creature hits only and solely that creature and doesn't touch anything around.

[...]

Quite funny btw, considering that Ruby also keeps harping on about how dragons can't possibly flame in anything other than a full 360° angle. Though that probably only applies when someone is sitting on their back I assume. :dunno:

[Ygrain]

I doubt MMD worked any magic.

She was probably trying to, but I think that the crucial part was not whatever spell she might have tried to conjure, but the fire and blood sacrifice of a magic person. If MMD was just a plain herbs-and-ointment healer, I don't think the sacrifice would have worked.

[RoamingRonin]

Do enlighten me which Targs didn't burn and/or didn't contract a disease while everyone else around them did. And be so kind as to provide quotes, like I did above.

Being lucky out of 1:1,000,000 chance in no way contradicts a one-time, miraculous event, because getting that one chance right at the first attempt is indeed a miracle.

As to the dragon dreams, she is not the only Targ to have them; feeling the heat - unknown if the Targs who hatched their eggs felt the same or not, perhaps the new story will shed some light on this. Similarly, we are still to see whether "blood and fire" is just fancy words, or if it's a recipe that Dany actually followed and combined with "death for life".

Not once did I say there were Targaryens that were immune to disease and fire.

And you can keep on believing it was luck. We already know "fire and blood" mean are more than just words and have history in Valyria.

You thibk Dany was the crucial factor? To me, MMD worked more magic in that pyre than Dany. She just took advantage of it.

What is it exactly that you think Mirri did? It seems as if you're saying that anyone could have been in Dany's place and the same things would have happened.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

You claimed that Drogon was eating the pitmaster. He wasn't.

The board was standing right next to Barsena. You seem to be under an impression that a burst of fire aimed at a specific creature hits only and solely that creature and doesn't touch anything around.

Oh, come on. You keep arguing that the flames are precision-guided (Balerion managed to melt all of Harrenhal without the heat injuring Aegon, Daenerys ducked under Drogon's flames so they only hit her hair) yet Barsena was near the boar so Barsena must have been cooked even though it is never mentioned?

Have you ever been bitten by a dog? I'm sure the animal did not intend to sate its hunger on you, so why, oh, why, might it bite?

Dogs don't eat people but dragons do.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Quite funny btw, considering that Ruby also keeps harping on about how dragons can't possibly flame in anything other than a full 360° angle. Though that probably only applies when someone is sitting on their back I assume. :dunno:

You misunderstood me. When Balerion melted the walls of Harrenal, he was sitting the courtyard with Aegon on his back. Everything in a 360 degree radius around Balerion and Aegon melted like wax. I am saying that for that to happen, the whole courtyard had to be incredibly hot, such that an ordinary person sitting on Balerion's back would have been cooked even if the flames did not touch him.

I am not saying that the flames were emanating in a 360 degree radius from Balerion's mouth. He either rotated his head or he turned his whole body around while he was doing it.

[Ygrain]

Not once did I say there were Targaryens that were immune to disease and fire.

Then you're arguing something entirely else than I claimed. The OP concluded that the Targaryen fireproofness and disease immunity are just stuff of legends, and I concurred, and this is the point that I am arguing.

And you can keep on believing it was luck. We already know "fire and blood" mean are more than just words and have history in Valyria.

Sigh. If Dany was superspeshul, she would have hatched the eggs in a more conventional way, whatever that was, but the way her ancestors did it not so long ago definitely didn't include a dead khal (king?) and a witch in a huge pyre, that would be a bit difficult to keep secret from people. Instead, she hatched the eggs in a very specific set of circumstances that definitely could not be predicted, hence she got "lucky" that such circumstances arose at all.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

She was probably trying to, but I think that the crucial part was not whatever spell she might have tried to conjure, but the fire and blood sacrifice of a magic person. If MMD was just a plain herbs-and-ointment healer, I don't think the sacrifice would have worked.

I've seen that argument before, but I'm not a big fan of it because what if it just takes training to know how to do magic and not blood?

I think its more of the fact that MMD as a sacrifice had meaning to Dany as in Dany did it with no regrets or feeling for her and thats why she was a viable sacrifice.

I think if Dany felt sorrow when MMD was screaming there would have been failure.

[Ygrain]

I've seen that argument before, but I'm not a big fan of it because what if it just takes training to know how to do magic and not blood?

I think its more of the fact that MMD as a sacrifice had meaning to Dany as in Dany did it with no regrets or feeling for her and thats why she was a viable sacrifice.

I think if Dany felt sorrow when MMD was screaming there would have been failure.

That's impossible to tell, as we do not know how power is obtained - if there has to be a pre-disposition to it, like warging, or if it a power that can be obtained. However, whatever the means, there was power in MMD, and this is, IMHO, what played a role in the hatching. That HotU vision of a dragon flying out of MMD's forehead seems to hint at a link between her and the hatching.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Dany says that she doesn't ever remember being sick. Some fans claim this is proof of her being super human, yet there are some people in real life who never get sick.

[The Dornishman's Widow]

You misunderstood me. When Balerion melted the walls of Harrenal, he was sitting the courtyard with Aegon on his back. Everything in a 360 degree radius around Balerion and Aegon melted like wax. I am saying that for that to happen, the whole courtyard had to be incredibly hot, such that an ordinary person sitting on Balerion's back would have been cooked even if the flames did not touch him.

I am not saying that the flames were emanating in a 360 degree radius from Balerion's mouth. He either rotated his head or he turned his whole body around while he was doing it.

Alright, I do seem to have misunderstood you. Is there any source for Aegon being so mindbogglingly stupid as to give up his air advantage and just rely on the defenders being thicker than even Harrenhal's castle walls and letting him to his thing and wait to get roasted? At least for me, that would indeed cast quite a new light on the conquest.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Dany says that she doesn't ever remember being sick. Some fans claim this is proof of her being super human, yet there are some people in real life who never get sick.

Furthermore, Dany is mistaken in that instance. She knows fever from experience. How would she, without having been sick before?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

That's impossible to tell, as we do not know how power is obtained - if there has to be a pre-disposition to it, like warging, or if it a power that can be obtained. However, whatever the means, there was power in MMD, and this is, IMHO, what played a role in the hatching. That HotU vision of a dragon flying out of MMD's forehead seems to hint at a link between her and the hatching.

There is definitely a link between her and the hatching.

I think its more about her being a part of it rather than the key.

Also GRRM said this event couldn't be repeated again, thats why I think the whole event was a prophecy being fulfilled, if it was actually a sacrifice that needed a witch that means it could be repeated again.

The same Dany in our story can never be born again that's why I think she was the missing link in addition to everything else for dragons to return.

[RoamingRonin]

Then you're arguing something entirely else than I claimed. The OP concluded that the Targaryen fireproofness and disease immunity are just stuff of legends, and I concurred, and this is the point that I am arguing.

Sigh. If Dany was superspeshul, she would have hatched the eggs in a more conventional way, whatever that was, but the way her ancestors did it not so long ago definitely didn't include a dead khal (king?) and a witch in a huge pyre, that would be a bit difficult to keep secret from people. Instead, she hatched the eggs in a very specific set of circumstances that definitely could not be predicted, hence she got "lucky" that such circumstances arose at all.

The OP said Targaryens aren't superhuman. I argue that there are Targaryens that have exhibited more-than-human powers.

Her ancestors had no need for such spells because they had dragons that raised their own eggs. Dany was in a unique situation and she succeeded in doing something that probably couldn't have been done in any other way. Of course it was a specific set of circumstances.

Saying she should have done it in a more conventional way without providing one is sort of being ridiculous. What would you have had her do? Turn into a dragon and sit on the three eggs?

Anyway my point is that most of what people say about Targaryens being somehow superior isn't supported by the vast majority of evidence..

Back to the OP: I disagree that the Targaryens aren't superior. The text actually supports that the Targaryens/Valyrians and the First Men are the "superstars" of this story. And after all these centuries after the Doom, their descendants are still in major positions of power...

Furthermore, Dany is mistaken in that instance. She knows fever from experience. How would she, without having been sick before?

From Willem Darry... from being told...

ETA: No, I don't think Dany is immune from disease. I just think this reply is somewhat illogical. She doesn't need to experience a fever to know she has one.

[RumHam]

Alright, I do seem to have misunderstood you. Is there any source for Aegon being so mindbogglingly stupid as to give up his air advantage and just rely on the defenders being thicker than even Harrenhal's castle walls and letting him to his thing and wait to get roasted? At least for me, that would indeed cast quite a new light on the conquest.

Harren offered a vast reward to the man who slew the dragon. Aegon climbed onto Balerion and flew high into the sky. He descended with great speed and landed behind the walls. Balerion unleashed his fire. Stone may not burn but wood, thatch, and MEN did. Stone did crack, though, and the great towers soon looked like candles. Harren and his line did indeed end. Swords, blackened and bent were sent by cartloads to the Landing.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2012/09/

Of course Harrenhal is huge, I don't really see why the fires on the walls would put Aegon in danger. I'm sure he was sweating, but you have to get pretty close to fire for it to harm you.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

From Willem Darry... from being told...

ETA: No, I don't think Dany is immune from disease. I just think this reply is somewhat illogical. She doesn't need to experience a fever to know she has one.

She also experiences food poisoning, diarrhea and other symptoms of illnesses later. Now you could explain it with a resistance to disease, but not poison, but that would be pretty arbitrary. There isn't much difference, if any.

An important point to be taken into account when discussing Dany is GRRM's penchant for biased PoVs. And that Dany is the single PoV in the entire series that's never witnessed by another PoV. She is the single most unreliable one of all of them. Even Cersei of all people is more reliable - because we know that she's wrong pretty much all the time. But Dany is more difficult to assess. And I bet anything that GRRM did this on purpose.

[The Dornishman's Widow]

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2012/09/

Of course Harrenhal is huge, I don't really see why the fires on the walls would put Aegon in danger. I'm sure he was sweating, but you have to get pretty close to fire for it to harm you.

Thanks for the SSM! Hm, really not a big fan of that... (e.g., how did he burn through twenty acres of the godswood to melt the opposite walls? after all, Harranhal is supposed to be ruined everywhere, right?), and I hope it makes more sense when we can read the original ourselves, but anyways, of course it's what we have to work on now. Thx again for the link.

[Ygrain]

Oh, come on. You keep arguing that the flames are precision-guided (Balerion managed to melt all of Harrenhal without the heat injuring Aegon, Daenerys ducked under Drogon's flames so they only hit her hair) yet Barsena was near the boar so Barsena must have been cooked even though it is never mentioned?

1) Harrenhall: see below

2) Dany's hair: first and foremost, the flame didn't even have to touch the hair for it to start burning; second, if she ducked under the flame so that it didn't touch her body, it still could have licked the tips of her hair, especially when the hair is long and flowing freely

3)Barsena: and what do you propose happened? That the fire was boar-shaped and stopped exactly at the boar, so that it never touched anything in the boar's vicinity? An ejected flame has a certain radius, have you never noticed?

Dogs don't eat people but dragons do.

Good luck with venturing into a pack of hungry wild dogs somewhere.

The point: predators bite when they feel threatened. They do so to harm, not to feed. Dragons are predators, as well, and the fire is not their only weapon.

You misunderstood me. When Balerion melted the walls of Harrenal, he was sitting the courtyard with Aegon on his back. Everything in a 360 degree radius around Balerion and Aegon melted like wax. I am saying that for that to happen, the whole courtyard had to be incredibly hot, such that an ordinary person sitting on Balerion's back would have been cooked even if the flames did not touch him.

I am not saying that the flames were emanating in a 360 degree radius from Balerion's mouth. He either rotated his head or he turned his whole body around while he was doing it.

Everything in a 360° radius around Aegon, in a distance given by the length of Balerion's neck. How big was Balerion? "Balerion was the largest of all the Targaryen dragons, his teeth were as long as swords and his jaws big enough to swallow a mammoth whole."

Now, how big was a mammoth? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammoth#Description How big was the dragon that could eat one whole? Biiiiiig. So big that Aegon sitting on its back while Balerion was spitting fire might actually feel cold.

[Tokyo Towers]

Some tarts are super human, period.

I get that people want to make their point, but wow; some of you guys are really condescending and full of…. opinions.

[Sordelor]

Some tarts are super human, period.

I get that people want to make their point, but wow; some of you guys are really condescending and full of…. opinions.

Don't know wether you wanted it to be this way, but it's hiarious :D