The Wheel of Time sidenotes: This is not the beginning.

[SpaceChampion]

The Travels of Jain Farstrider, that Egwene mentions, is well below half a century old

Spoiler

Apparently it was published in 968 NE, which is 10 years before the end of the Aiel War.

Ok, added the spoiler box, but I don't really think the exact age of a book is a spoiler... It's just background. After all, you gave the age first, just less precise.

I have to say that Ravens adds absolutely nothing of value to the story.

[fionwe1987]

Apparently it was published in 968 NE, which is 10 years before the end of the Aiel War.

Might want to spoiler quote that.

Also, this means Egwene is:

In love with a 20 year old book, at most.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

The printing press has been around for more than 3000 years. So books are available in large numbers, and soon. The Travels of Jain Farstrider, that Egwene mentions, is well below half a century old, and already there are multiple copies in the Two Rivers. Gives you an idea of how much books spread in this world.

Yep, it's giving me an idea. Altough I suppose I still haven't truly accepted this "printing press survived madwizard!apocalypse thingie.

WoT's world is not strictly medieval, since it is based on the 17th century. Yes, even technologically, although as usual is not a perfect equivalency. Two Rivers doesn't have an actual library. Rather, the mayor has a sizable collection of books he gets from the many merchants that pass by to buy tobacco. Considering the latter is a luxury product throughout the world and Two Rivers is a virtually independent region (but still part of a very powerful kingdom that makes sure no one else annexes it) it is not a surprise those farmers are fairly well off.

Also: so they were like... XVII century for last 3000 years?\

OK, nevermind. I RAFO.

Also, here you can find images of old printing presses, that make perfect sense in a 17th century inspired world.

Yeah. Problem is how those things survived the Breaking ;)

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Might want to spoiler quote that.

It won't work if you quote it ;)

Although it means totally nothing for me, at least now...

[sToNED_CAT]

Also: so they were like... XVII century for last 3000 years?\

Yeah. Problem is how those things survived the Breaking ;)

There were some ... pretty disturbing events during that 3000 year period. It was not a time of peace and prosperity. The technology might have taken step backward during some of those events. Also in real world the technology didn't advance too much until industrial revolution for thousands of years, so it's not difficult to imagine it would be the same in WOT.

And maybe printing presses didn't survive the breaking, but the knowledge of them did and once you know how to make them it is not realy difficult to do so.

WoT's world is not strictly medieval, since it is based on the 17th century. Yes, even technologically, although as usual is not a perfect equivalency. Two Rivers doesn't have an actual library. Rather, the mayor has a sizable collection of books he gets from the many merchants that pass by to buy tobacco. Considering the latter is a luxury product throughout the world and Two Rivers is a virtually independent region (but still part of a very powerful kingdom that makes sure no one else annexes it) it is not a surprise those farmers are fairly well off.

Yes, it's basically preindustrial society minus gunpowder. Also the goverments are more medieval (kingdoms with aristocracy and some merchants). It's also true that 2 Rivers is fairly affluent compared to other regions. Like I said no taxes, no wars, fairly important export product etc., it's like some kind of peasants paradise.

Spoiler

Tairen small folk life is probably the worst, northern states are constantly attacked by Trollocks, and in other states the population suffers from wars and civil wars.

[lupis42]

Also in real world the technology didn't advance too much until industrial revolution for thousands of years, so it's not difficult to imagine it would be the same in WOT.

Uhm... what?

I guess if you don't include looms, spinning wheels, rudders, wootz steel, the lateen sail, the crossbow, printing, the chimney, the cam, the gear, three field crop rotation, the horse collar, the horseshoe, the plowshare, the stirrup, maille, the saddle girth, the pointed arch, stained glass...

Ok, I'm getting tired of this.

The point is that the rate of technological change in the "middle ages" was actually very high - enough so that much of the world of 1300 depended on would be mostly unrecognizable to someone from the reign of Charlemagne, which is only ~500 years.

[SilentRoamer]

The technology during the Age of Legends is difficult to find a comparable analogue to - this is mainly due to the use of the One Power in Terangreal and the feats that could be achieved with it.

The technology pre-breaking was the equivalent of a clean Nuclear based society.

[sToNED_CAT]

The point is that the rate of technological change in the "middle ages" was actually very high - enough so that much of the world of 1300 depended on would be mostly unrecognizable to someone from the reign of Charlemagne, which is only ~500 years.

But that's only because in post Roman Europe the overall technology level declined. Stop comparing 1300 to 800 AD, compare it to 200-300 AD or to other regions like Middle East or Byzantium. There were some areas you mentioned where technology advanced, but literacy, healthcare, infrastructure, mining tech plus many others didn't reach roman level until 1700. I also disagree that the world in 1300 would be unrecognizable to Charlemagne and co, hell even to ancient Egyptian. Why? Because they used horses instead of donkeys, partioned field into 3 parts instead of 2, or had slightly better ships building and better cavalry? He'd still see society with tech based primarily on animal and hydropower plus some wind. But send him to industrial society and he'd think it's all magic.

[lupis42]

But that's only because in post Roman Europe the overall technology level declined. Stop comparing 1300 to 800 AD, compare it to 200-300 AD or to other regions like Middle East or Byzantium. There were some areas you mentioned where technology advanced, but literacy, healthcare, infrastructure, mining tech plus many others didn't reach roman level until 1700.

You're very optimistic about Rome - they may have appreciated sanitation and literacy more, but even by the standards of pre-crusades Europe, Roman medicine was bad, Roman agriculture was 40% less productive, and Roman tools were crap by comparison with even those of dark ages Europe. If you want to bring in the middle east, you have to account for the fact that they were breaking new ground in architecture, math, optical instruments, medicine, etc at breakneck speed right up until the crusades, so the world as a whole looks much less stagnant, not more.

I also disagree that the world in 1300 would be unrecognizable to Charlemagne and co, hell even to ancient Egyptian. Why? Because they used horses instead of donkeys, partioned field into 3 parts instead of 2, or had slightly better ships building and better cavalry? He'd still see society with tech based primarily on animal and hydropower plus some wind. But send him to industrial society and he'd think it's all magic.

Saying "slightly better ships and better cavalry" is like calling your cellphone a portable UNIVAC. The difference between ships that can sail right up into the wind, with no oars, and the longships of the preceding eras is very much magical to the uninitiated. It's far from the only example.

[fionwe1987]

Yep, it's giving me an idea. Altough I suppose I still haven't truly accepted this "printing press survived madwizard!apocalypse thingie.

Yeah. Problem is how those things survived the Breaking ;)

Because pre-Breaking technology was really advanced. The printing press is nothing compared to that.

Also: so they were like... XVII century for last 3000 years?\

OK, nevermind. I RAFO.

Nope, as you'll see.

[fionwe1987]

Also the goverments are more medieval (kingdoms with aristocracy and some merchants). It's also true that 2 Rivers is fairly affluent compared to other regions. Like I said no taxes, no wars, fairly important export product etc., it's like some kind of peasants paradise.

Not all countries have the same kind of governance, incidentally.

[sToNED_CAT]

Not all countries have the same kind of governance, incidentally.

Not the same, but it's all medieval variety.

Minor spoilers (government types in Westlands)

Tear is aristocratic republic, Illian, Cairhien, Andor, border states, Altara, Murandy, Amadicia and Ghealdan are all hereditary monarchies I believe, although other faction can limit kings power. Arad is elective monarchy, Tarabon is the weirdest one with it's dual rule. And those small countries like Mayenne are comparable to Italian republics. There's no democracy, not even something comparable to English parliament, the franchise in "republics" is extremely limited to aristocrats and richest merchants. So they all seem medieval to me...

[Derfel Cadarn]

We can assume the Trolloc wars (which lasted decades) reverted society.

[fionwe1987]

Not the same, but it's all medieval variety.

Minor spoilers (government types in Westlands)

Tear is aristocratic republic, Illian, Cairhien, Andor, border states, Altara, Murandy, Amadicia and Ghealdan are all hereditary monarchies I believe, although other faction can limit kings power. Arad is elective monarchy, Tarabon is the weirdest one with it's dual rule. And those small countries like Mayenne are comparable to Italian republics. There's no democracy, not even something comparable to English parliament, the franchise in "republics" is extremely limited to aristocrats and richest merchants. So they all seem medieval to me...

Illian does have a House of Lords and House of People analogue that severely curtails the King's power. Tanchico has an elected Panarch. The White Tower is a weird kind of republic/democracy that resembles the Roman Republic. But all these are at the national level. Villages mostly have elected Mayors, so it isn't like there's no democracy.

[SilentRoamer]

Illian does have a House of Lords and House of People analogue that severely curtails the King's power. Tanchico has an elected Panarch. The White Tower is a weird kind of republic/democracy that resembles the Roman Republic. But all these are at the national level. Villages mostly have elected Mayors, so it isn't like there's no democracy.

[Wicked Woodpecker of West]

Keep going, my friends. Keep going ;)

I like the topic has some kind of life while I'm taking the break ;)
Even though I has to be careful about spoilers...

[SilentRoamer]

Yeah. Problem is how those things survived the Breaking ;)

There are textual references much later in the series that explain how certain artifacts were saved during the Time of Madness and so existed even following the Breaking. I wont go into any more detail as although not a spoiler per se I would not want to reveal too much.

As you get deeper into the series it will become more apparent how detailed the backstory for Randland is.

Despite all of its numerous flaws WoT is still one of my favourite series as a whole.

[Disputatious]

Just a reminder about the BWB (big white book): this, the world book: The World of The Wheel of Time, though it came out less than half way through the series, is still quite useful for the back story. There are maps for the ten nations and the post trolloc wars successor states, some potted history of things pre breaking as well as later, capsule bios of the forsaken, and some other useful bits as well. The maps could have been more detailed and there could have more replete descriptions, but what is there is better than nothing, and now alas all we will ever get.

[SilentRoamer]

Yeah Teresa Patterson did a great job on the World Of Wheel of Time. Reads like a history book and I found it very enjoying. Definitely should not be read before the last few novels.

I am a bit of a WoT geek in truth!

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

May have mentioned this before, but if you intend to avoid spoilers, reading the books in chronological order rather than publication order was a bad idea. There aren't *too* many plot spoilers in New Spring, but there are a ton of character spoilers.