''Balon was mad, Aeron is madder, and Euron is the maddest of them all''.

[the hound of sansa]

she follows the orders of her king and father
sure, she is eager at first to prove herself, but later she understands that they have no hope

[Minsc]

she follows the orders of her king and father

sure, she is eager at first to prove herself, but later she understands that they have no hope

Balon was later willing to attempt some outreach to IT the same as her.

[Daenyra]

Euron:

1. Glib superficial charm- check

2. Grandiose sense of self/entitlement- check

3. Little to no remorse- check

4. Manipulates others for personal gain - check

5. Grows easily bored with unstimulating tasks/things- check

If anyone out there does not know what that adds up to, its super important that you find out, and never, ever let this personality type into your life!

Yes, a life saving advice! And also learn about how they behave in "romantic" relationships- their favourite playing ground. No, you won't see it easily and they are sicker than you are smart! :leaving:

The Greyjoy brothers are all on the spectrum, but differ in intelligence. Victarion is the stupidest, followed by Balon (incredibly short-sighted) and Aeron (the former looser, now religious nut). Euron is the most dangerous, because he is smarter. Still not as smart as old Bolton, mind you. Blacktyde was quite right in his assessment. I am actually surprised Asha is sane and a decent person. Those Harlows have strong blood to win against so much crazy.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

How is Asha any better seeing how she equally follows Balon's harebrain plan?

She's very much aware of how harebrained Balon's plan is. "Asha had never deluded herself." But he pulled rank and that was it.

[Minsc]

She's very much aware of how harebrained Balon's plan is. "Asha had never deluded herself." But he pulled rank and that was it.

So, she was like Theon and followed his harebrained scheme. So again, what sets her apart as she offers nothing better then the rest while only following along.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

So, she was like Theon and followed his harebrained scheme. So again, what sets her apart as she offers nothing better then the rest while only following along.

What should she do instead? Try to start a civil war against her own father? Or rather try to limit the harm done to the North - and the repercussions in the future.

[Minsc]

What should she do instead? Try to start a civil war against her own father? Or rather try to limit the harm done to the North - and the repercussions in the future.

Offer a better alternative

However, the question is why is Theon stupid for following Balon, yet Asha is excused for the same act?

Also, she hardly attempts to limit the damage to the North.

[noSer]

Its a misconception that Balon's plan was doomed to failure. Balon was no fool. He never intended to rule the North or to set up his own kingdom there. Balon was using the exact same strategy that Tyrion convinced Aegon to use. Aegon understood that he could not go to Dany as a beggar and ever be her equal. Balon knew that he could never be called the King of the Iron Islands by all of Westoros unless he dealt with Tywin as equals. If Balon doesn't die Victorian still holds the Neck, and while in time he would have lost his grip on the North, Balon would have had a stranglehold on half of Westeros. From this position Balon would have then struck a deal where the Iron Throne would have recognized his status as the true King of the Iron Islands. That plus the spoils of their conquest, and maybe even expanded territory, leaves the Ironborn in a stronger position than they've held since the conquest. I think Balon had a great plan. One as unpredictable and as brilliant as any that the Young Wolf surprised the Lannisters with. In this world you're either growing or dying so Balon's insistence on expansion is not the reckless act that its often labeled. The ironborn, while not in immediate danger of extinction, where slowly dying away. Balon acted in the best interest of his people not out of a deranged need for power and greatness. If he had lived he very well may have succeeded. Since this parallels Aegon's story I wonder if Aegon will also be assassinated on the cusp of success only to have his successors screw it all up?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Offer a better alternative

However, the question is why is Theon stupid for following Balon, yet Asha is excused for the same act?

Also, she hardly attempts to limit the damage to the North.

To whom? Balon?

Theon isn't stupid for following Balon, he is stupid for that insane plan to conquer and hold Winterfell.

Asha treats Lady Glover and the inhabitants of Deepwood Motte very favorable. Where she had the authority, no hard feelings were produced.

[Minsc]

To whom? Balon?

Theon isn't stupid for following Balon, he is stupid for that insane plan to conquer and hold Winterfell.

Asha treats Lady Glover and the inhabitants of Deepwood Motte very favorable. Where she had the authority, no hard feelings were produced.

And Asha stupidly tries to hold the Motte despite being in enemy territory that she is unfamilar with and how the rest of her people abandoned her. And in the end she gets captured similar to Theon, only luck has it that her captor isn't as bad as his.

She kidnaps and endangers her baby, yeah she is sure great to them. Honestly, she treats them no better then how any greyjoy besides Euron might treat them.

[The Frosted King]

Its a misconception that Balon's plan was doomed to failure. Balon was no fool. He never intended to rule the North or to set up his own kingdom there. Balon was using the exact same strategy that Tyrion convinced Aegon to use. Aegon understood that he could not go to Dany as a beggar and ever be her equal. Balon knew that he could never be called the King of the Iron Islands by all of Westoros unless he dealt with Tywin as equals. If Balon doesn't die Victorian still holds the Neck, and while in time he would have lost his grip on the North, Balon would have had a stranglehold on half of Westeros. From this position Balon would have then struck a deal where the Iron Throne would have recognized his status as the true King of the Iron Islands. That plus the spoils of their conquest, and maybe even expanded territory, leaves the Ironborn in a stronger position than they've held since the conquest. I think Balon had a great plan. One as unpredictable and as brilliant as any that the Young Wolf surprised the Lannisters with. In this world you're either growing or dying so Balon's insistence on expansion is not the reckless act that its often labeled. The ironborn, while not in immediate danger of extinction, where slowly dying away. Balon acted in the best interest of his people not out of a deranged need for power and greatness. If he had lived he very well may have succeeded. Since this parallels Aegon's story I wonder if Aegon will also be assassinated on the cusp of success only to have his successors screw it all up?

This whole post makes me say wut?

If he didn't plan on taking the north, why did he tell exactly that to the most powerful political entity on the continent?

Balon had a stranglehold on the north only to Robb's current positioning. He had no ships.

But the Iron throne was in possession of the greatest fleet in the realm, which totally negates Victarion holding the Moat.

Wut again?

If two men are trying to throw off the shackles of Gregor Clegane for their freedom, it doesn't make sense for one to seek to cut down the other, and then try and ally with Clegane for his freedom.

Thats not how Clegane works, and that's definitely not how brilliance works.

But that's definitely what Balon ended up doing.

To Minsc.....

This is part of why the initial ironborn narrative seems so plot driven rather than character driven in my mind.

All the other kings/powers, we see them in scenes of council, from their lords and advisors in times of major developments.

Tywin we see at the end of GOT, Tyrion maneuvers, Stannis a few times in ACOK, Renly as well. Robb for sure too.

Balon is the only king who we don't see a council scene for. He gets a letter giving him the best chance for independence he'll ever get, but his decision has already been made.

I honestly feel the sole reason why we never get that scene from Balon is because Martin couldn't write a plausible rebuttal to the obvious query of "why not join the Starks and cripple one of the major forces of unification?".

In a room full of lords, nobody questioned how the smallest power thought to hold the largest landmass in the kingdom in the days of autumn, before winter fell?

Or how holding Cailin is redundant in the face of a south that holds fleets of ships?

Martin couldn't write it well, so imo he just decided not to write it at all.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

Euron has a mind alien to his society. He is about as mad and atypical as an ironborn can be.

[Samsaptakas]

None of them are mad. That is just Baelor think.

[northwesterner]

Its a misconception that Balon's plan was doomed to failure. Balon was no fool. He never intended to rule the North or to set up his own kingdom there. Balon was using the exact same strategy that Tyrion convinced Aegon to use. Aegon understood that he could not go to Dany as a beggar and ever be her equal. Balon knew that he could never be called the King of the Iron Islands by all of Westoros unless he dealt with Tywin as equals. If Balon doesn't die Victorian still holds the Neck, and while in time he would have lost his grip on the North, Balon would have had a stranglehold on half of Westeros. From this position Balon would have then struck a deal where the Iron Throne would have recognized his status as the true King of the Iron Islands. That plus the spoils of their conquest, and maybe even expanded territory, leaves the Ironborn in a stronger position than they've held since the conquest. I think Balon had a great plan. One as unpredictable and as brilliant as any that the Young Wolf surprised the Lannisters with. In this world you're either growing or dying so Balon's insistence on expansion is not the reckless act that its often labeled. The ironborn, while not in immediate danger of extinction, where slowly dying away. Balon acted in the best interest of his people not out of a deranged need for power and greatness. If he had lived he very well may have succeeded. Since this parallels Aegon's story I wonder if Aegon will also be assassinated on the cusp of success only to have his successors screw it all up?

Great observation

[Ser Onaventea Helms]

Why is Northern independence considered ''romantic'' whereas Iron Islands struggle is considered foolish?

Because da starcs are goooood, and grayjoy is baaaad.

[The hairy bear]

Why is Northern independence considered ''romantic'' whereas Iron Islands struggle is considered foolish?

Because the Northeners were not trying to rule over their neighbors. Only about themselves.

If Balon had decided to cut ties with the Iron Throne, proclaim himself as king, and barricade himself in the Iron Islands hoping that the rest of Westeros would let them go, that would also have been considered "romantic".

Instead, he decided to return to the old ways of sacking and pillaging. It wasn't a legitimate fight for independence, it was an aggresive war that aimed to plunder and conquest.