RK Rajagopal Posted November 30, 2013 Author Share Posted November 30, 2013 Again, the marriage was important in forging an alliance between the Wildlings and the North. The decision has been made to let the Wildlings in. They are now part of Westeros. So should Jon not make attempts and try to get the North to accept them and overcome decades of resentment? Alys KarStark was a means to do that. I thought it was a great idea. Which Bolton does he capture? He captures the Karstarks to protect Alys. Are you advocating that he stand by and let the Karstarks drag Alys back to their household and get her forcefully married off and do nothing? The Karstarks were threatening the LC of the Watch and he had every right to arrest them. I think you are forgetting something important here. It's Jon's duty to guard the realms of men and make sure that the NW as an institution does it's job. Just harping on neutrality all the time is not the thing here. Jon cannot just totally ignore the things that are happening south of the wall because they play a big part in defense against the Others too. If Stannis helped the Watch, then Jon should probably help Stannis instead of making an enemy out of him. Stannis is already there and Jon cannot ignore him. Likewise the wildlings are already there and Jon has to deal with them. Again, the marriage was important in forging an alliance between the Wildlings and the North. The decision has been made to let the Wildlings in. They are now part of Westeros. So should Jon not make attempts and try to get the North to accept them and overcome decades of resentment? Alys KarStark was a means to do that. I thought it was a great idea. Which Bolton does he capture? He captures the Karstarks to protect Alys. Are you advocating that he stand by and let the Karstarks drag Alys back to their household and get her forcefully married off and do nothing? The Karstarks were threatening the LC of the Watch and he had every right to arrest them. I think you are forgetting something important here. It's Jon's duty to guard the realms of men and make sure that the NW as an institution does it's job. Just harping on neutrality all the time is not the thing here. Jon cannot just totally ignore the things that are happening south of the wall because they play a big part in defense against the Others too. If Stannis helped the Watch, then Jon should probably help Stannis instead of making an enemy out of him. Stannis is already there and Jon cannot ignore him. Likewise the wildlings are already there and Jon has to deal with them. Don't you think the Boltons would get pissed if one of their supporters is imprisoned, and his castle is invaded by wildlings? Jon had alternatives - he could have hid Alys and said she never came. Instead, he decided to interfere in the realm, openly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LC Jaime Lannister Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 I beg your pardon. Are you asking me to use "dictator" instead of "tyrant"? Because either way my point stands: it is not possible to be a good dictator. Saying it's not possible to be a good dictator is just ridiculous. It most certainly is. It is not possible to be a perfect dictator and please your entire dominion, but you can certainly be "good".. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iona Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Don't you think the Boltons would get pissed if one of their supporters is imprisoned, and his castle is invaded by wildlings? Jon had alternatives - he could have hid Alys and said she never came. Instead, he decided to interfere in the realm, openly. Remember, that at this point the Karstarks are still officially on camp Stannis, so the Bolton's really can't object :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RK Rajagopal Posted November 30, 2013 Author Share Posted November 30, 2013 I know you're gonna hate me for nitpicking, but I need to make sure you get another opinion! I've mentioned in another thread that Jon giving up the bride was his responsibility. Alys' father would usually do the honors, but since he's not around, the highest ranking male authority takes his place - in this case it's Jon, since Stannis is already gone. (The same situation as with Sansa's wedding, and how Joff is his father for the day). And if by Bolton supporter you mean the Karstarks that came after Alys, Jon went to great lengths to remain neutral, since he arranged the Karstark men to be captured before they arrived at the Wall (so they were not guests) and they do this because Alys (a guest at the Castle Black) requests protection. ETA: Got :ninja: 'd so baad it hurts! I think the Boltons won't care about these subtleties. And yes, I meant the Karstarks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Han Snow Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Jon could destroy the entire world and some fans would still want him to be King. Jon could save the entire world as a King and some fans would still want him not to be King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RK Rajagopal Posted November 30, 2013 Author Share Posted November 30, 2013 Saying it's not possible to be a good dictator is just ridiculous. It most certainly is. It is not possible to be a perfect dictator and please your entire dominion, but you can certainly be "good".. At least you can be less "bad" than some others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicer Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Don't you think the Boltons would get pissed if one of their supporters is imprisoned, and his castle is invaded by wildlings? Jon had alternatives - he could have hid Alys and said she never came. Instead, he decided to interfere in the realm, openly. But he was trying to integrate the Wildlings into the North. I think you are missing the big picture here. It's not just about maintaining neutrality all the time. The NW needs good allies too. The North hates the Wildlings with thousands of years of resentment between them. Wildlings could be fighting Northerners while the more important battle for the Others is looming ahead. Jon is trying to convince the North to give the Willdings a chance. He does this with the marriage and he also talks to Norry and Flint about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RK Rajagopal Posted November 30, 2013 Author Share Posted November 30, 2013 But he was trying to integrate the Wildlings into the North. I think you are missing the big picture here. It's not just about maintaining neutrality all the time. The NW needs good allies too. The North hates the Wildlings with thousands of years of resentment between them. Wildlings could be fighting Northerners while the more important battle for the Others is looming ahead. Jon is trying to convince the North to give the Willdings a chance. He does this with the marriage and he also talks to Norry and Flint about them. True. He does try to do that, and succeeds. He shows great aptitude in something which he tries actively to do. However, does he even think of a Bolton retaliation? How might that affect the watch and the wildlings? I don't think Jon is even concerned about these things, right till the pink letter. And then he goes to war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ravenstark Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Good job, Bowen Marsh. Now, instead of potentially defeating a threat and surviving, there's going to be a slaughter. I can see how taking down Jon was the better option. No, killing Jon just made the things worse: Jon was brokering it, was Jon who kept them from killing each other. Wildlings and Watchmen/North will fight. Winter has just started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RK Rajagopal Posted November 30, 2013 Author Share Posted November 30, 2013 Could Jon have dealt with Stannis and Alys differently? Could he have portrayed himself as more neutral? We will never know, cause Jon didn't bother to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosimaistheHottest Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Jon could save the entire world as a King and some fans would still want him not to be King. How is Jon as King going to save the entire world? Does Jon have the unique skills that no other person has that could help? No. If he is already King, the point is moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Jon could save the entire world as a King and some fans would still want him not to be King.Being King in Weseteros is not is a good thing. Some Jon fans thinks he deserves better than the hell that would come with being King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atroksia Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 No, killing Jon just made the things worse: Jon was brokering it, was Jon who kept them from killing each other. Wildlings and Watchmen/North will fight. Winter has just started. I refuse to believe or accept that Jon will die. I hope he will survive the stabbing somehow, maybe with Mel's help or whatever. Jon mustn't die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicer Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Could Jon have dealt with Stannis and Alys differently? Could he have portrayed himself as more neutral? We will never know, cause Jon didn't bother to try. How do you suggest he deal with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Han Snow Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 How is Jon as King going to save the entire world? Does Jon have the unique skills that no other person has that could help? No. If he is already King, the point is moot. You miss the point of being mocked for that silly statement you made. Being King in Weseteros is not is a good thing. Some Jon fans thinks he deserves better than the hell that would come with being King And you just miss the point. Both of you should read Dicer's posts. Thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosimaistheHottest Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 Being King in Weseteros is not is a good thing. Some Jon fans thinks he deserves better than the hell that would come with being King Truly. People act like everything will be sunshine and butterflies after the The Others are dead. If The Others reach the South, it could be decades before, they are back to wear they once were before all the wars. Food will be short. People will probably resort to cannibalism. What if he was a good leader/general for the war, but terrible at rebuilding, which is the type of person Westeros will need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RK Rajagopal Posted November 30, 2013 Author Share Posted November 30, 2013 How do you suggest he deal with them? My point is that Jon wasn't even concerned about these things. We have his POV, we know what he thinks. Never does he fear or prepare himself for Bolton / Lannister retaliation. Jon is talented and creative. He successfully integrated the wildlings into the north - unthinkable for any LC before him. Had he tried, he might have found a way. If he couldn't, that's fine. My complaint is that he was never worried about it - unlike Marsh, who constantly reminds him. Maybe he could have hidden Alys and denied she came. Maybe he could have sent an envoy to the Boltons. I don't know what he could have done - I just wanted him to try, and be concerned about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LC Jaime Lannister Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 At least you can be less "bad" than some others. Not even. Just because you are a dictator doesn't mean you are bad. It's just the case that most people who become dictator abuses their power or are simply not fit to rule. There've been great dictators in the world, Garibaldi, Peisistratos, Alexander the Great. Just because you aren't elected doesn't mean you cannot be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iona Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 I think the Boltons won't care about these subtleties. And yes, I meant the Karstarks. It's the bigger picture I want to draw here for you, not just to defend Jon to the Boltons. If Ramsay gets something in his head, no amount of argumentation will change his mind. :P I can see that you might be pretty adamant in some of your views, and it's for the sake of good discussion and the possibility of you getting to see other points-of-view on the matter that I keep challenging you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosimaistheHottest Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 You miss the point of being mocked for that silly statement you made. Actually no I didn't miss the point I understood exactly what you meant. I counteracted the point with some logic. What can Jon do that other people can't do? Does he have some mystic powers that neither Bran, Rickon, Sansa,Arya, and Dany have that can defeat the others? Yea, he knows about them, but that still hasn't helped much. Is he really the only one that can save the world or at least Westeros? What makes him uniquely qualified? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.