Jon's mistakes - and why he shouldn't be King

[Jon of the Dead]

Ramsey: "Bastard, walk into my obvious trap, jeopardizing the already fragile stability at the Wall and bring me the hostages I'm demanding or I will leave the safety of my fortress and travel hundreds of miles in hostile territory and in the middle of a blizzard to take them from you"

Jon: "No, it's ok, I'll go to you"

Really? Look, I get that Castle Black only has defenses from the North, but at least it is a castle. Jon prefers to march the undisciplined wildlings hundreds of miles into the heart of the North, freezing their balls off and dying like flies, to stand in the middle of the snow without supplies and besiege a castle that was especifically built to withstand huge sieges in winter. I used to think Jon was the Gary Stu of the series, but Gary Stus are not complete morons.

And why would Jon do that, anyway? Ramsey the idiot told him to give him Arya back, which means he didn't have Arya anymore. He had no hostages, no leverage. He threatened the NW allright, but there's a difference between an actual threat and a taunt. This was clearly the latter.

Jon should have replied with a, "Go fuck yourself. You want those hostages? Come get them", and then he would be fighting the five Bolton soldiers who would survive the road to the Wall

[Muggle]

1. The question being ''Do the ends justify the means?'' - in this case, Jon didn't think so. If you think it's that easy to look in an helpless, innocent person's eyes and kill them then clearly you're a Ramsay supporter.

2. The Night's Watch are sworn to defend the realms of men. But of course, it's definitely within their vows to let the Others have thousands of (relative) innocents for free.

Wedding of Alys Karstark - only controversial in terms of his vows, in which the restrictions are there only to ensure the task he faces - fighting the Others.

It's true, Jon isn't always the most pragmatic of people, but I think he is capable of being King. In the case of the sick and starving of Astaphor, I think he probably would have shut them out too.

No,

Jon tells Stannis in the start of ADWD that no Northern lord would allow some foreign king handing out marriages and castles that doing so would be the complete opposite of his goals. the northern men would rise up in war.

Then Jon who has no power in the north sends a wildling to be the ruler of a norther castle. Then he even goes as far to hold captive a representative of Bolton. Which he was no right. This one action alone is the death to the Nights Watch. What if Ned Stark was Lord of Winterfell and out of no where he gets a letter telling him Lord Mormont has brokered a marrige and sent a small wildling army to take over a Norther Castle. Do you think Ned would allow Mormont to remain as LC of the Nights Watch for long? He would call his banners in an instant.

Jon put everything on Stannis. He lets his personal views cloud his judgement. He cares more about putting the North right in an image that he sees fit. Instead of ruling the Night Watch. You can see this in that letter he sent to the Iron Throne. Saying the NW didn't support stannis. He was so revolted by this letter that once more only said the NW doesn't support stannis that he wanted to vomit and he almost didnt sign it. It was master amon and sam who twisted his arm into signing it.

Jon knows first hand the threat of the others. Jon does some really smart things to get ready for the battle of humanity. Then he throws all of it away.

[Buckthorn]

^ ^ Not as high as it would have been previously. When Jon takes the new recruits out to swear their vows, even on such a short trip...

Jon sent Tom Barleycorn ahead to scout for them, though the way to the white grove

was oft trod and familiar. Big Liddle and Luke of Longtown slipped into the brush to east and west. They would flank the column to give warning of any approach. All were seasoned rangers, armed with obsidian as well as steel, warhorns slung across their saddles should they need to summon help.

..it's hard to imagine they wouldn't take similar precautions on the ranging, as well making provisions for fire arrows, etc ( Jon has had all NW taking mandatory daily archery practice )... and we saw the precautions taken by Tormund's people ... making sure all the dead were burned before they moved on. It's risky, but they wouldn't be unprepared ( unlike Mormont ) and at least on the way to HH , they wouldn't be encumbered with the old , very young and infirm.

Jon intends to send the NW with Tormund, but I think it's a safe bet that doesn't mean only NW.Half and half at best ,would probably be more like it , considering how few able bodied men the NW is down to. Most of those would probably be rangers , who for the most part have been more accepting of wildlings... at least recognizing their common humanity.. and most of whom seem to back Jon. So Tormund ought to be able to keep the force in line. We don't know what number Jon and Tormund settled on , but even at the highest number Jon mentioned to Leathers , 200 , that's a number worth risking compared to the potential gain.

Furthermore, I don't trust that Mel is correct in saying that all Jon's ships have been lost. She could be wrong ... and she would lie to keep Jon where she wants him. She's expended so much effort to get Jon to trust her , be grateful to her ... all in hopes of seducing him into helping her produce shadow babies ( draining his life force in the process ).These she would use to help Stannis and to go against what she sees as the agents of the Great Other. ... Of course there's the little problem that she sees Bran and Bloodraven as the great Other's champions , but that's a little side irony.

Are we sure making Shadow babies with Mel would have the same effect on Jon as it did on Stannis? I'm not saying Jon is superhuman or anything, but can Jon's Warging ability somehow counteract the after-effects of Mel's magic? Just a thought.

[bemused]

I disagree that the letter was a taunt. I can't imagine for a minute that Ramsay would not be after Arya at the first opportunity , hunting her as he loves to do and needs to do, before anyone else can find her and expose the Bolton deception.

Whether Jon correctly identifies the author or not , this much he understands - Ramsay will be after her , not waiting at WF for someone to return her ...and this is why he thinks of getting Mel to "find" Ramsay.

ETA; Buckthorn.. yeah, I think it's to be considered.. but the thing is , we don't know..What if his warging ability was the first thing to go ? I hope we won't have to find out ( and don't think we will )

[Arya Targaryen]

The fact that Tormund and the wildlings are willing to go to Hardhome together with the Watch soon after they desperately found safety south of the Wall means to me that the mission had some chance to succeed. Tormund would know if they had no chance.

Winterfell: we don't know what Jon's plans were. We know he wanted wildlings to go with him - that means they can travel through the snow faster as they are used to it. I don't think Jon wanted to engage in a fight with Ramsey in a 200 vs 5000. But what did he want to do? I have no idea. So I wouldn't dismiss it as stupid until we know exactly what he wanted to do and how.

[dragontamer]

Well Jon is a guy who desperately tries to live up to Ned’s ideals, while admitting his hero is Daeron the Young Dragon….take a hint?!?!

This is Jon….the real Jon, unsure and conflicted. Being one but trying so hard to be something else. Doesn’t accept his nature, his bastard nature, because he thinks he is more than that. He accepts to kill Halfhand, in a situation much similar to the Old guys but doesn’t kill the latter. Why? Because Halfhand wants him to, because Halfhand almost asks him to, Jon is not to blame, he is following orders. But when he has to decide for himself he tries to do what he believes is the moral thing, not the right thing, what Ned would have done and that’s where the problem is. If he wasn’t so damaged by his bastard nature, If he was self-assured he would have done the right thing.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

snip

DRAGONTAMER! Long time no see! Welcome back :cheers: :D

[dragontamer]

DRAGONTAMER! Long time no see! Welcome back :cheers: :D

:ph34r: Yea i was toying with the idea and finally gave in :)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

:ph34r: Yea i was toying with the idea and finally gave in :)

Welcome back! :D

[bemused]

Well the Halfhand also ensured that Jon would do what was necessary by attacking him . Jon was forced to act in his own defense.. It's a different story with the old man.

I don't know if we can actually say it was a wrong choice , since it did provide him "the best chance he was likely to get " to escape and warn the Watch. And Jon's instinct to be just ( as well as simply being who he is )is very important going ahead.. I don't think we should begrudge him a little luck ( Summer ) along the way.

[Pecan]

I just finished Feldman's series of blog posts on Jon's arc. Feldman really is a terrific writer. I feel like I'm starting to understand now where Jon is going as a character.

[Knight Fall]

I think a practical man and just man, like Tyrion, would make a good king.

"A practical and just man like Tyrion" nothing more just and practical than a self loathing murdering rapist, who fantasizes about raping and murdering his own sister, i don't care how fucked up Cercei is, Tyrion is no better.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

"A practical and just man like Tyrion" nothing more just and practical than a self loathing murdering rapist, who fantasizes about raping and murdering his own sister, i don't care how fucked up Cercei is, Tyrion is no better.

Well said. WELCOME :cheers:

Also Tyrion is not just.

[Lord Ravenstark]

"A practical and just man like Tyrion" nothing more just and practical than a self loathing murdering rapist, who fantasizes about raping and murdering his own sister, i don't care how fucked up Cercei is, Tyrion is no better.

People here like Dany, who ordered serveral mass murdering, let people starve and die in disease nd is the greatest hypocrite in the series. People here like Tywin, no need explanation. People here like Jon, even when he betrayed the Watch and chosing sides and let thousands of Wildlings pass through the Wall.

Well, there's no innocence.

[I am of the Night]

People here like Dany, who ordered serveral mass murdering, let people starve and die in disease nd is the greatest hypocrite in the series. People here like Tywin, no need explanation. People here like Jon, even when he betrayed the Watch and chosing sides and let thousands of Wildlings pass through the Wall.

Well, there's no innocence.

As I read your post I was mentally preparing an argument. By the time I was done, all I could say was; LOL!