The art of a Siege: Single Combat

[Alty732]

Many times through out the Novels, the idea of single combat is used to solve divided issues. While it's obviously flawed, it is a key tool in Westeros. It is used in trials, and if the accused wins they walk free. This we have seen. But what of sieges? We have seen it brought up, but has it ever worked? I can not recall a time a single combat has resolved the issue. Has it ever happend? And if so when?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

In legends.

It fits right into the chivalric ideals of the nobility, the dream of every young squire and some not so young knights. But in the harsh reality, it doesn't work.

[Missionary]

If the sieging party loses said Duel I doubt they would just up and walk away.

[littleRickon]

:agree:

several characters outright say exactly that in the books: the losing side would never abide by the rules. It would come down to a symbolic match to boost one side's morale, as was the case in the Strong Belwas duel against the hero of the Paal family.

[Alty732]

If the sieging party loses said Duel I doubt they would just up and walk away.

But then why is it even an idea used anymore? There must be some practical use to it. If no one followed the rule, it wouldn't be a rule.

[Missionary]

But then why is it even an idea used anymore? There must be some practical use to it. If no one followed the rule, it wouldn't be a rule.

Most oft than not a siege will take place during a war. As we have seen normal 'laws' do not apply. They may still be there, but are brushed under the carpet (for want of a better term).

[CassBlackfyre]

Courtnay penrose had single combat with a shadow and lost :'(

[Bright Blue Eyes]

But then why is it even an idea used anymore? There must be some practical use to it. If no one followed the rule, it wouldn't be a rule.

It isn't a rule. It never was a rule. It is an ideal. The ideal of knighthood the knights of summer and ardent young squires dream of. But commanders ain't that stupid, they grew out of it before they got their first command.

Basically, it's Santa Claus for squires and teenaged knights.

[RumHam]

While I agree that most of the time the losers' men are not likely to abide by his wishes, I think it still has some relevance. If only as a noble way to surrender. (I.E. what Penrose wanted)

[Ser Lepus]

The castle of Grimston in Greyshield surrendered to Ser Harras Harlaw after he defeated seven Champions in seven duels.

Ser Cortnay Penrose asked to use a duel between champions to decide the winner of the siege of Stom's End.

Jamie Lannister offered the Blackfish to decide the winner of the siege of Riverrun with a duel between champions too (the Blackfish refused).

My perception is that the duel isn't taken seriously as a way of fighting a war, but as a way out without loss of honor, when somebody is under siege and knows that victory is impossible. Ser Cortnay Penrose, the Blackfish and the champions of Grimston could fight, and, if they lose, they can surrender without loss of honor, and if they win,...well, the siege goes on, but at least they have a moral victory over their enemy.

[Alty732]

The castle of Grimston in Greyshield surrendered to Ser Harras Harlaw after he defeated seven Champions in seven duels.

Ser Cortnay Penrose asked to use a duel between champions to decide the winner of the siege of Stom's End.

Jamie Lannister offered the Blackfish to decide the winner of the siege of Riverrun with a duel between champions too (the Blackfish refused).

My perception is that the duel isn't taken seriously as a way of fighting a war, but as a way out without loss of honor, when somebody is under siege and knows that victory is impossible. Ser Cortnay Penrose, the Blackfish and the champions of Grimston could fight, and, if they lose, they can surrender without loss of honor, and if they win,...well, the siege goes on, but at least they have a moral victory over their enemy.

Jaime did say to Blackfish he would lift the siege if their champion lost. I don't know if he actually would have, but that was part of the deal.

[Gneisenau]

It is a fantasy but in the battle of the trident, Robert was romanticized as the one who fought Rhaegar in single combat, slew him by caving in his plate armor. In reality I doubt that happened.

[Alty732]

So lets say the Sieging side loses the combat and decided to keep good on their words, what then? Is peace talks the next step? Economic warfare?

[Sansa_Stark]

Jaime did say to Blackfish he would lift the siege if their champion lost. I don't know if he actually would have, but that was part of the deal.

Knowing Jaime it was a lie.

[Minstral]

So lets say the Sieging side loses the combat and decided to keep good on their words, what then? Is peace talks the next step? Economic warfare?

The commander that lifts said siege would be decorating a cell when his king hears of this. If it is a king then its one thing added to a list of "I don't like my king for these reasons, when do we conspire in the next rebellion". There is an ideal, both in the setting and medieval times, that is emphasized by the tournament and the reality of war which is by far more brutal.

[Alty732]

Knowing Jaime it was a lie.

It does seem like Jaime would lie about this, since his vow to his King comes before his vow to Cat. Aswell as the fact he understands that if Riverrun can't be taken, it will be harder to take any remaining rebel banner houses like the Blackwoods. Both facts of which he thinks in his chapters.

But since it never says he was lying, and never says it was the truth we really can't know. In that very converstaion with Blackfish Jaime lies about how much food they have, and Jaime thinks about how it's a lie. If George informed us about Jaime lying there, why not here?

Maybe Jaime would have kept his word. Who knows?

The commander that lifts said siege would be decorating a cell when his king hears of this. If it is a king then its one thing added to a list of "I don't like my king for these reasons, when do we conspire in the next rebellion". There is an ideal, both in the setting and medieval times, that is emphasized by the tournament and the reality of war which is by far more brutal.

This seem's to make it seem like the "Honorable Defeat" idea is probably true, since there is no winning in single combat it seems like.

[Ser Lepus]

Jaime did say to Blackfish he would lift the siege if their champion lost. I don't know if he actually would have, but that was part of the deal.

And the Blackfish didn't believe Jamie would fulfill his part of the deal. If the Blackfish thought that he could win the war that way, he would have taken Jamie's offer and soundly defeated him.

Also, when somebody proposed the honor duel solution during the war council, another one answered "and why would the Blackfish accept that? It's not as if we were going to lift the siege if our champion loses".

[Brandon the Epithetless]

I think it only worked in-universe for the Ironborn in Greyshield. It's not all fairy tale, historically we have the Siege of Tsingtao (Qingdao) during WWI (although the duel is just for a position not the whole city, though it was crucial to taking the city.):

"Advancing through the hole in the German center, Japanese forces fanned out. One infantry company charged up Iltis Hill. A searchlight lit up a German lieutenant rallying his men with drawn sword as a Japanese captain ran up, leading his men with sword out. Blinking, the 2 men stared at each other. Then, in an incredible parody of feudal combat, the 2 officers fought a fencing duel between their deployed troops. Samurai sword proved much superior to ceremonial dress sword; the Japanese commander cut his opponent down. The Germans surrendered. Another company climbing up Bismarck Hill received the surrender of Germans disheartened by Japanese cheering on Iltis Hill. Meyer-Waldeck surrendered, and his men marched out of Redoubts 1 and 5. The morning of 7 November, ironically a fine clear day, Japanese and British troops entered Tsingtao...."

I guess whether it'll work is dependent upon the perceived honor of the victor, war-weariness of both sides and the probability of winning by other means for the losers.

ETA link: http://www.gwpda.org/naval/tsingtao.htm

[Minstral]

There can be examples of agreements honored for small conflicts through single combat, and there could even be examples of it being a resolution to a higher conflict. But these would be the exceptions and not the rule as way to resolve wars and battles.