Role in WoW: Jon Snow (Spoilers):

[TrialByCombat]

Here are some of my thoughts regarding the fate of Jon:

I’m not to sure if he’s dead or alive, but I do feel he wargs into Ghost for a bit while his body is weak/dead. I’m not sure if we’ll get a POV chapter of this or not. I think he does because of the Varamyr Sixskins prologue. I feel like that way of keeping himself intact by him entering Ghost so his body can recover/be resurrected. I think by looking at Lady Stoneheart we can see why this is important because she came back and all she wants is vengeance from her past life.

If his body dies how is he going to come back? Here’s where I’m not too sure. Maybe Mel burning his body with Shireen. Val doing something. Seems like she might have knowledge of the old gods. Also Bran might have a way to save him. Maybe by sacrificing Theon in the Godswood in Winterfell.

I’ve also seen the Stoneheart idea, but it seems like she’s just way too far away. Even if she found out Jon is not Ned’s I can’t see her need of vengeance changing.

I think that he will come back/recover because it seems like a waste just having him die this early because of the mystery regarding his parentage. I feel like this makes it so he has to come back. Why else would there be all this mystery surrounding who his mother is. I just can’t see how Ned would be having all this inner struggle over it and the secrets he has kept to just have Jon die.

The next issue that is getting argued is what is going to happen to the NW. The NW is pretty much fallen apart been wiped out. Over the years the type of men in it have gotten worse and worse. They have now killed one LC and might have killed another. The main problem being that they lost their true purpose for existing. They thought they were protecting wildlings from the realm instead of focusing on the real threat of The Others. Mormont’s great ranging turned out to be a real bonehead move, but then again they really had no idea about the real threat and was worried about what the wildlings were doing. That knocked out a fair amount of NW men.

Jon was really the only one who had the real enemy and was trying to keep people in check. I’m thinking chaos will ensue at the Wall and who knows what can and will happen.

There is also a lot of debate over Jon’s vows. I don’t necessarily think he needs to get of the vows. He is the one that’s going to need to be there leading the realm to protect from The Others. I think it’s going to take everyone possible to defeat this threat. We still don’t know how massive their army might be. I’m thinking its going to be massive. It will be very difficult to survive especially since the ways you can defeat one them is so reduced. I mean the NW used to be 10,000 fighters and have 17 manned castles. The Wall is so massive and there is magic tied into it somehow. The Wall and it’s powers are a mystery and who knows what may happen with that.

I’m thinking the others somehow get past the Wall, but I’m not sure how. (Will it fall somehow?) This will cause major issues especially if the Wall were to fall. It will probably take the entire realm to stop it.

IF the theory of R+L+J is true, which I think it is. Then I think this opens the door to a lot of story. If it is true the he is truly Jon Targaryen and is both Targaryen and Stark blood. It makes a lot sense because he is at the least half Stark, as seen with him being a warg. Then he can try and unite everyone to the threat of The Others. The 7 kingdoms is ripe for conquer with so many areas being fought over. Jon needs to be the leader to win against The Others. Varys put it perfectly in the epilogue when you apply what he said to Jon. It’s his duty to rule not his right.

I’m not sure but I think that makes him the rightful heir to be king. Not that he would want to be king or anything. It would help him gather everyone against the Others (stark+targaryen) . I would probably guess that he gives up his life to defeat the threat as well in the end.

[Dorea]

Well I like the Cat ressurecting Jon theory but if Jon is dead he has to be ressurected really fast during the same day. They have to burn him before the night to prevent him to turn into a WW even if he wont turn into a WW being ressurected after a long time would make him a Catlike unJon. So he could be in a coma (but not dead) for a long time till Cat is less then a day away from the wall, or he comes back on his pyre in a very magical way as AA. From all theories I think I like most the one where he is actually alive.

aslo I don't think Dany and Jon will rule together there is no point since they can't have an heir. It will be someone else.

btw this is me first post

[scottyrooney]

The passage that always got me was when Mel looks into the fire when she is at the wall and asks to see Azor Ahai but only sees Jon Snow's face...I always took that to be pretty compelling that Jon was indeed AA and that Mel was going to have a part in it.

I also think it makes sense from the standpoint of how GRRM kind of toys around with the character of Mel...It's obvious that she has powers and that they work sometimes, but then other times they abandon her or she misinterprets the fires (I think she even admits this in one of the chapters, or discusses how it's easy to do)...So I feel like it's a good twist that she thinks Stannis is AA and looks into the fire trying to see his future, sees Jon, but can't put it together and so is a little blinded by her own weak interpretations.

But...as we see at the end of the books, R'llor followers seem to be getting waaaay stronger and strange things are happening, so I also think it would be fitting if in WOW, Mel's power of insight and fire reading gets better and is able to take part in Jon coming into his full power as AA.

She doesnt see jon snows face.. "all I see is snow" I believe was the line your referring to. Which could be interpreted as stannis lost in the snow storm or indeed jon as azor ahai

[Vvornth]

She doesnt see jon snows face.. "all I see is snow" I believe was the line your referring to. Which could be interpreted as stannis lost in the snow storm or indeed jon as azor ahai

The fact that we hear this vision several times and Melisandre's difficulties in interpreting the signs would indict that this is a very heavy wink and nudge.

[Rubrik]

If Jon is dead or beieved to be dead, his corpse would need to be burned before nightfall.

Jon was known to follow the Old Gods. Out of respect, his supporters would construct his pyre underneath the Weirwood tree.

Do we know someone who can work magic out of a weirwood tree? Someone who can travel back in time and learn the truth about Jon's parentage?

Perhaps it's time for what is called the Old Gods to make their return and intervene in the coming showdown between Ice and Fire, and perhaps they need an avatar skilled in leadership and tempered by experience. And backed by magic and maybe a little bit of theatrical wizzardry like rising from the dead.

It's the Ice and Fire that are the real threats in the story, and we (the readers) need someone to finally face that directly. Bran mystically at his back, Sam scientifically at his side, sword in hand.

[Ser Gareth]

I don't think his corpse will be burned. All hell is going to break loose after he read that letter and they stabbed him. I think the Wildlings, the NW at Castle Black & Stannis's men there will start fighting in a big way and there will be a LOT of corpses.

[sj4iy]

She doesnt see jon snows face.. "all I see is snow" I believe was the line your referring to. Which could be interpreted as stannis lost in the snow storm or indeed jon as azor ahai

She does see his face, becoming a wolf and then man again. She says "I ask for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hollor shows me only Snow" with a capital S.

[Cax]

I think the other events happening at the same time Jon gets ambushed are important in considering what happens next;

- Wun Wun losing his shit for some unknown reason

- Jon's attackers moving like they were puppets on a string...Marsh crying as he pumped out a cliche, Wik(?) throwing his hands up as if to say 'wasn't me'

- Jon unable to move his hand to defend himself

- The apparent absence of Melisandre

I say 'apparent absence' because everyones actions for those few moments suggest some sort of mass glamour being at play.

If Mel wants Jon's undivided loyalty for whatever master scheme she is working on, what better way to get that than to orchestrate an assassination then play the good guy and bring him back to life?

This strikes hardest with me. I'd like this.

[sj4iy]

This strikes hardest with me. I'd like this.

Actually, it seems to me very different:

1. Wun Wun is losing his shit because Ser Patrek decided to start something with him. Wun Wun had sword cuts on him, indicating that Ser Patrek cut him and ended up losing his arm for it.

2. I simply read the "Not me" expression as Wick trying to say "It wasn't my idea" because he doesn't want Jon to kill him after he disarms Wick. Bowen Marsh is crying when he does it, probably because he genuinely feels terrible about what he is doing. This is a bold move they are making, and one that will probably cost them their lives.

3. Shock, more than likely.

4. She could have gone to free Ghost.

[A Dance with Davos]

Having read through all the theories on this site concerning Jon, Others, Azor Ahai, The Nights King and the possibility of Daario being Euron... I had wanted to see if anyone else could see my POV with what might happen with Jon in WoW. (No copy of the text near, so will be paraphrasing a few lines)

It seems like a lot of the fanbase is certain that Jon will survive/resurrect from his incident at the NW. Can't blame any of them and I strongly agree that he will. How this takes place? I am not sure. What I really want to speculate is how Jon will feel after returning to the world of the living. I see a lot of theories of how Jon is AA, I believe the text does hint towards this.

"I ask for a glimpse of Stannis, Azor Ahai, but all I see is Snow ?" this being a far more obvious tell to Jon being AA. However there are a few things with the vision that didn't quite set with me when reading this line. First of all, my literary skills are nothing special and there is nothing subtle about this hint of Jon being AA. To me, it seemed like the line was far too loud and obvious. The second being we have a POV of Mel where she reveals that reading the fires can be incredibly difficult and she can make mistakes and many other Red Priests have and do. To then be given such a obvious tell to Jon being AA from a fire vision puts doubts in my mind. Still, I have seen the text people have provided and there are numerous times when Jon has a few things pointing him towards being AA.. So onto my next point...

Stannis. Having read a topic about the possibilities of Stannis becoming the Nights King. The evidence was damning. Unfortunately, I can't recall any text and all the descriptions were fairly accurate so I wouldn't want to paraphrase lines where the small details were the big points. In a nutshell these theories buy into the fact that Stannis "Will break before he bends". Leading to some sort of arrangement between him and the Others, then becoming the Nights King. I look over Stannis' character and personally I find it hard to see him breaking in anyway that would cause him to be on the side of a force of mass genocide. Shireen dying ? That could push him over the edge, but I still doubt it. If Stannis breaks, he dies. So onto my 3rd point...

When Mel alludes to how she finds Stannis and Snow to be far more similar than either would like to admit. I think GRRM will pull a switcharoo with the two, cause he can. If Stannis is susceptible to breaking than so is Snow. Jon hasn't had it easy. He has given up much and more for the realm and NW. Hated by his step mother, Ygritte killed when he would've preferred to stay in the cave with her, he denies the position of the Lord of Winterfell, is nominated as LC without really wanting it and then is stabbed in the back by the some of the same that wanted him as LC ? His own brothers !? I say Jon Snow will become NK. Old Nan says the original was a LC and a Stark. Then Stannis will actually be AAR/TPTWP. GRRM likes to mock tropes and one thing I thought about the other day was how (and correct me if I am wrong) no one refers to Stannis as a Prince even though he is.

I'm sorry, I really wanted to shoehorn in some Stannis appreciation. Ignoring the long and stretchy speculation of who the NK and AAR could be. I think it is fair to believe that if Jon does awaken from what has just happened, he has suffered enough to warrant a well deserved mental breakdown. I just find it hard to buy into the idea of him being resurrected and being utterly jolly about the whole experience hard to buy. If GRRM likes to turn tropes around then it's about time Jon did breakdown and go rogue.

[sj4iy]

<snip>

I don't see anyone 'becoming' the Night's King. I think he already exists and has hidden away in the Lands of Forever Winter since he was 'brought down' at the Night's Fort. There is no evidence that the Night's King would have to be 'reborn' like Azor Ahai or that anyone has to become the Night's King.

[A Dance with Davos]

I don't see anyone 'becoming' the Night's King. I think he already exists and has hidden away in the Lands of Forever Winter since he was 'brought down' at the Night's Fort. There is no evidence that the Night's King would have to be 'reborn' like Azor Ahai or that anyone has to become the Night's King.

I see. With people like CH and BR beyond the Wall seems possible that the NK could be alive somewhere. I suppose trying to figure out if he could be an existing character is also a bit silly at the moment considering the main piece of evidence tends to be the colour of a persons eyes and their shadow...

Another point that is plausible and possible in WoW that could have a negative impact on Jon's attitude is Rickon and Winterfell. A lot of if's in this thought, but here goes:

With Jon dead or at least being attacked by the NW I think it is safe to assume he won't be LC for much longer. If Davos does make it back with Rickon and if Stannis does oust the Bolton's and Frey's within Winterfell he'll surely name Rickon Lord of Winterfell.It's what the law demands and Stannis loves it. I don't believe Jon would be totally against the decision, his character is honour bound and dutiful, but I think it will sting. No longer LC, no chance of being Lord of Winterfell and still a bastard.

I can't see him being welcome at The Wall if brought back and if Rickon is declared Lord of Winterfell I don't see much point of him sticking around there. Perhaps him and Mel will go AWOL if she believes him to be AAR or he might side with the Wildlings, I have no idea. One thing I hate about speculating about the North and The Wall is that all bets are off when The Others do decide to attack.

[sj4iy]

I see. With people like CH and BR beyond the Wall seems possible that the NK could be alive somewhere. I suppose trying to figure out if he could be an existing character is also a bit silly at the moment considering the main piece of evidence tends to be the colour of a persons eyes and their shadow...

Another point that is plausible and possible in WoW that could have a negative impact on Jon's attitude is Rickon and Winterfell. A lot of if's in this thought, but here goes:

With Jon dead or at least being attacked by the NW I think it is safe to assume he won't be LC for much longer. If Davos does make it back with Rickon and if Stannis does oust the Bolton's and Frey's within Winterfell he'll surely name Rickon Lord of Winterfell.It's what the law demands and Stannis loves it. I don't believe Jon would be totally against the decision, his character is honour bound and dutiful, but I think it will sting. No longer LC, no chance of being Lord of Winterfell and still a bastard.

I can't see him being welcome at The Wall if brought back and if Rickon is declared Lord of Winterfell I don't see much point of him sticking around there. Perhaps him and Mel will go AWOL if she believes him to be AAR or he might side with the Wildlings, I have no idea. One thing I hate about speculating about the North and The Wall is that all bets are off when The Others do decide to attack.

Jon will find out about his parentage in WoW, that much we know. We also know that he was legitimized and named heir by Robb in his will, which is still out there. I think the Jon will finally gain the power he needs to raise an army to fight the Others...but I don't think he will be a Night's Watchmen any longer, because there's nothing left for him to do story wise at the Wall.

[A Dance with Davos]

Robb's will slipped my mind completely. I suppose he must've named Jon in the will for a complete lack of any other better ideas. However, I think Jon still could fall through on being Lord of Winterfell. I have no evidence. Just a different POV, but if Rickon is already Lord of Winterfell and Jon arrives with Stannis still prominent around the castle could he not deny Robb legitimizing Jon? I will need to check, my memory is fuzzy, but Stannis never acknowledged Robb as King of the North as they sided with Renly? Robb burned him, Jon burned him. I don't see it causing too much upset with the North if he decides to do this. His King's Hand would have returned Rickon and Stannis himself Winterfell to a Stark.

A few other problems creep up as well. I doubt Jon will find out about his parentage before/if he is offered Winterfell, but being so duty-bound wouldn't he decline if he knew his true parentage ? Rickon would come before him. They gave Robert Baratheon the Iron Throne, cause he had the better claim. If Jon wants to be just like Ned he can't accept even if he would be a better leader than a wild boy. Also he may have been named heir in the will, but that is simply because Robb thought Rickon was dead and Jon would know this.

Perhaps he will stick around Winterfell, but I just don't see him becoming the Lord. I shouldn't speculate so far away from the text, but considering GRRM said he dislikes tropes, I just don't fancy the idea of Jon the Orphan, with a magic wolf, special sword, difficult love life, youngest LC, animal powers and all round nice guy becoming Lord of Winterfell. He is Fantasy Trope Ahai Reborn, in my opinion at least. I tend to just expect the worst to happen to characters now. My favorite is Stannis, but I just can't shake the feeling he'll dig some pits in the snow and Manderly's men will fill those traps leaving the Frey's and Bolton's to walk other their bodies and kill him.

[sj4iy]

Robb's will slipped my mind completely. I suppose he must've named Jon in the will for a complete lack of any other better ideas. However, I think Jon still could fall through on being Lord of Winterfell. I have no evidence. Just a different POV, but if Rickon is already Lord of Winterfell and Jon arrives with Stannis still prominent around the castle could he not deny Robb legitimizing Jon? I will need to check, my memory is fuzzy, but Stannis never acknowledged Robb as King of the North as they sided with Renly? Robb burned him, Jon burned him. I don't see it causing too much upset with the North if he decides to do this. His King's Hand would have returned Rickon and Stannis himself Winterfell to a Stark.

A few other problems creep up as well. I doubt Jon will find out about his parentage before/if he is offered Winterfell, but being so duty-bound wouldn't he decline if he knew his true parentage ? Rickon would come before him. They gave Robert Baratheon the Iron Throne, cause he had the better claim. If Jon wants to be just like Ned he can't accept even if he would be a better leader than a wild boy. Also he may have been named heir in the will, but that is simply because Robb thought Rickon was dead and Jon would know this.

Perhaps he will stick around Winterfell, but I just don't see him becoming the Lord. I shouldn't speculate so far away from the text, but considering GRRM said he dislikes tropes, I just don't fancy the idea of Jon the Orphan, with a magic wolf, special sword, difficult love life, youngest LC, animal powers and all round nice guy becoming Lord of Winterfell. He is Fantasy Trope Ahai Reborn, in my opinion at least. I tend to just expect the worst to happen to characters now. My favorite is Stannis, but I just can't shake the feeling he'll dig some pits in the snow and Manderly's men will fill those traps leaving the Frey's and Bolton's to walk other their bodies and kill him.

I think that Jon would only use any evidence of Robb's will or his true parentage to gain support against the Others...he would never take Winterfell from any of his brothers or sisters, even if Robb's will had named him his heir. But Rickon will not be old enough to do anything on his own, whoever has him could make him their puppet...something that Jon would not do. And Jon doesn't want to be just like Ned...maybe when he was younger he did, but not any longer. Right now he has a job to do and will do whatever he has to in order to do it. For most of Jon's life, he has felt like he had to prove that he was as good as his other brothers even though he was a bastard...how would he feel if he finds out that Robb, his best friend growing up, has legitimized him and named him his heir? And what if he also found out that he's not a bastard after all? I think it will be a lot for Jon to take in, but I think he will want to use this to help fight the war he has been preparing for.

[A Dance with Davos]

True. That was my exact train of thought for Rickon. I could imagine Jon sticking around to guide him, but Stannis using him. Also, I never did consider how much of a morale boost Robb confirming Jon as his heir would be, if he were close to breaking. However... I don't think either will convince the other side. So we may have to agree to disagree.

It's just I feel like we see a fairly realistic reaction to some events from characters and also how even the nice guys can do some nasty stuff. Biggest point of this being Tyrion. He was on death row, escaped, but only wanted to die and take revenge on all who wronged him after escaping, cause of the reveal of Tysha and Shae with Tywin. Jon has been infallible up to this point and if R+L=J is true, then that's just like Ned (Although you are right in the fact that he might not want to be like Ned).

I just feel like Jon is on track to breakdown. He has been preparing for the omega war and has had to make incredibly difficult decisions and horrible sacrifices in preparation. From a readers viewpoint he seems to have done everything correctly, cause he has. So his sworn brothers kill him. If he doesn't wake up feeling a little bitter from the events I'd be shocked.

I'm not budging and I doubt you are. So we will probably have to agree to disagree on this. I can see both arguments happening, but until Winter finally arrives, I guess we know nothing.

On a side note... Sometimes I wonder if all the build up to Jon's parentage is just going to end in Melisandre burning him. Reason I say this... and it's complete crack, but Melisandre reveals that reading the fires is difficult and to be warned of looking for what you want, then in her chapter she has the vision of Jon. Did anyone interpret that as anything else other than Jon is AAR? It's impossible to deny that, that was what the vision seemed to mean. Perhaps the real message from the vision was Jon needs to be burned for AAR. In the Red Woman's chapter we get the biggest Red Herring ? More crackhead then crackpot.

[sj4iy]

^I'd like to say that I've never thought of either Jon's parentage or Robb's will being the reason people follow Jon. I think they will follow Jon because he's going to lead the war against evil ice creatures and their zombie puppets. I simply think it will make it easier for people to follow him.

[Tom of House Gunn]

I love reading these forums but this is my first post. From reading numerous theories I tend to think that Jon is dead, warged into ghost (where he will spend a chapter or two) before ghost is sacrificed (only death can pay for life). His body will not turn, as long as it is kept in an ice cell (Jon mentions this I think - he's surprised they don't change). I think waking the dragon from stone may just mean that the secret to his ancestry is in the stone tombs in winterfell. I still think his role will eventually be as a tragic saviour but hope I'm wrong!

[The Kinkslayer]

E) Schrödinger's Bastard: Jon is both dead and alive, both Ned's and Rhaegar's Bastard, his Mother was Ashara, Wylla, the Fisherman's daughter and Lyanna. To see which outcome was correct Dolorous Edd only has to open the ice cell where they put his body, but he is busy being the last men defending the wall.

[GERM]

E) Schrödinger's Bastard: Jon is both dead and alive, both Ned's and Rhaegar's Bastard, his Mother was Ashara, Wylla, the Fisherman's daughter and Lyanna. To see which outcome was correct Dolorous Edd only has to open the ice cell where they put his body, but he is busy being the last men defending the wall.

I laughed at this, but honestly, the truth about Jon's parentage it really the only thing I want resolved. I posted back in 1997 on some forum that Lyanna was Jon's mother and at the time, I was flamed to shit. I want to be right and find all of those people to rub it in, heh.