Role in WoW: Jon Snow (Spoilers):

[Bironic]

Are you kidding me? Why not one chapter then? Few pages Meeren, few for the road adn finally Westeros.

Well there are people who would like this... ;) :D

[Segeeth]

Dany's and Jon's stories a really similar.
They are different enough for not been really obvious copies of each other but generally follow the same stream.

So if you want to figuer out Jon's role in TWOW, think about Dany's coming arc)

[opinionn]

Melisandre will revive him in the same way that Thoros revived Beric Dondarrion. She seems more than capable.

[Watermelon Knight]

Wonderful thread! I've reread ADWD paying special attention to Jon and now I'm convinced he is indeed destined to be Azor Ahai reborn.

-When the red star bleeds, amidst smoke and salt...

Ser Patrek's sigil is a red star. And oh how Wun Wun made him bleed.

Early in ADWD, Jon accompanies Marsh while he takes inventory. The only foodstuff in overabundance is salt.

Jon's wounds smoke. I actually believe this is steam, since hot blood will do that when it's ass freezing outside!

-Jon's wounds are undoubtedly fatal. He takes a knife right between the shoulder blades. If it didn't penetrate his heart, it at least severed his spinal cord. Modern medicine could not treat such a wound, much less the primitive Westeros medicine.

-His last word is "Ghost". I believe its utterance shows Jon has warged into his beast and thus his mind/spirit/soul will be protected from the process of undying him...mostly.

-Mel is the obvious choice for kissing Jon back to life. Thoros or Stoneheart? Maybe, but what a plot mess it would be to get them into the same place. Mel is already there, and she's a servant of this R'Hlor, so she's the one. And I believe when she kisses life back into Jon's corpse she will finally realize he is the true Azor Ahai reborn.

-Bringing the stone dragons to life? I think this has a few metaphorical meanings. One, Jon is Rhaegar Targaryen's son. The blood of the dragon will literally be brought back to life. But I see another more menacing metaphore: Marsh and his conspirators have unwittingly succeeded in "waking the dragon" in Jon.

One other clue I noticed in the opening of Jon's second to last chapter, in his dream:

"Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again."

Jon will return as mostly-Jon. As Jon, but with the dragon awakened. Fire and Blood will follow with it.

*Major caveat: this is all assuming Martin ever finishes his song. I think he's too scared to finish it. He's afraid the ending won't measure up to the journey. Two books left will grow to three once TWOW is published, perpetually leaving the series two books away from the end. Valar Morghulis - best not get too emotionally involved in this series.

[Snow wolf]

George R R Martin has a habit of killing the wrong people. I mean, he let Jaime live but killed the Young Wolf?

Its not that I don't like Jon, but his importance stopped after the War with the Wildlings. But if that was true. his parentage would be revealed., if there was anything to reveal. Since in an interview Martin said there would be a Luke Skywalker reveal, he will be back. How I don't know and I don't care.

Im surprised your saying Jon lost his importance after the war with the wildings... after that becomes lord commander of the Nights watch (a very important position) and starts preparing for war with the Others (the most important war of all). Surely that makes Jon an important character..?

[samharper]

I'm convinced Jon is dead because his death is necessary:

As the events at the ToJ indicate, he is the last trueborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen and thus the rightful king of Westeros. But he will never be able to claim the throne as long as he is a man of the Night's Watch, and his only way to leave the Night's Watch is to die ("Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death...") and come back to live later on.

The only person I can think of that will be able to revive Jon is the one person that always hated him and was revived after her own death: Catelyn Stark aka Lady Stoneheart. If Melisandre was able to bring him back, no one would even believe he was dead. Everyone would just think she simply healed him. (I also think that the only reason for Beric Dondarrion being revived by Thoros of Myr and CS being revived by BD was to pass on the flame of life until it finally reaches Jon. That's why Beric Dondarrion finally died while bringing back CS. He had fulfilled his purpose.)

When CS revives JS she will die just like his mother died giving birth. It will be a metaphorical rebirth.

If things should really happen this way, Jon would probably stay dead for most of TWoW. Maybe he won't even return before ADoS. Until then his body would be preserved in one of the ice cells GRRM gave us so much information about in ADwD. Meanwhile his conscience would warg into Ghost (Otherwise I don't know what would be the purpose of the prolog chapter from ADwD.).

I kind of like this idea about reuniting unCatelyn and unJon.

The theory that Bran will reunite the remaining direwolves (Jojen's the wolves will come back line), Bran and Jon being connected while Jon is unconscious, and Lady Stoneheart and Nymeria being in roughly the same geographical area - so some kind of collective direwolf-Stark thing to pass on Beric's life force through unCat back into Jon? It is difficult to see how Lady Stoneheart could get to Jon - they are separated by half of Westeros, although I do like the idea that her hate for Jon will play a key role again in the story, mixed in with the remaining direwolves reuniting

[Watermelon Knight]

If undead Catelyn must kiss Jon back to life, then add another book to the series to get her dead dragging arse to the wall.

Given Catelyn's character, I can't see her doing much other than dismembering Jon's corpse. She HATES Jon and as an undead her wroth is more pronounced than ever. Actually I'd like to see her eaten by a pack of direwolves, but I've never liked her character so maybe I'm biased.

[Ser Archibald Haddock]

If undead Catelyn must kiss Jon back to life, then add another book to the series to get her dead dragging arse to the wall.

Gods, what an awful return to life that would be for Jon! Imagine waking up with an undead, disfigured Catelyn Stark staring grotesquely down at you. Poor old Jon would be convinced that he'd been banished to Hell, or wherever it is naughty Northmen go when they get the chop.

[Giorgio Corrado]

I have a theory about Jon which is incomplete theory of R+L=J but really R+L=J&D. I think we will find out that Jon and Dany are really twins that needed to be split appart. How could this be well it involves the promise that Ned Stark made to his dead sister Lyanna remember she asked to protect someone namely Jon. Ned had fulfulled that oath by claiming Jon as his bastard son and making it known to everyone, but yet Ned was still bothered by that oath to Lyanna. So why would Ned still be bothered unless Ned did not fulfill his oath? After all Jon was protected nobody knew about who his true parents were unless Lyanna had twins and not just one child. I think Ned realized that Dany looked so much like her father and asked how soon would ask about Dany's platinum blond hair and how she looked more like a Targ then a Stark. Jon who had his mother's looks could be passed as Ned's son but Dany could not so she was sent too the surviving Targs and raised as Ares daughter. This also would explain why Ned was against Robert's orders to have Dany killed and why Ned Stark was still bothered by this promise tha tis why I think R+L=J&D.

[Ser Archibald Haddock]

but yet Ned was still bothered by that oath to Lyanna. So why would Ned still be bothered unless Ned did not fulfill his oath?

Eddard is still haunted by the promise he made, we know that, but it's not because he didn't keep his word - rather it's the price he had to pay to keep that promise. Lying to everyone (including Jon) for 14 years goes directly against his fundamental nature. He is an honest and honourable man. Keeping his promise meant conflict with his wife over the child he brought home from the south, and that everyone including his wife believes he was unfaithful to Catelyn. It also meant denying Jon the knowledge of who he really is and Eddard sees the effect of this on his family every day - his wife's coldness towards Jon, the gap between Jon and his siblings, and Jon's permanent outsider status in life. No wonder the guy is haunted by it even if he knows Jon is safe.

As for your speculations about separated twins, that seems a little too Luke-and-Leia to me. I'm aware twins don't have to be identical but it also seems unlikely they would exhibit such stark physical differences (pun intended), with one being so different from the other. How did they get the child to Dragonstone? What happened with Rhaella giving birth there? Why did Willem Darry accept the role of ward of this child? It doesn't really stack up.

The only reason Eddard was against the killing of Daenerys was (again) because of his honour, integrity and fundamental kindness. He wasn't a baby killer or a child killer. If he was around at the sack of KL it's doubtful the children would have been killed. And if Daenerys was in fact his niece, and if he did promise his sister that he would look after the children, then Robert giving the order to kill her would no doubt have precipitated his own flight to Essos and mission to warn and protect her. I doubt he would stand idly by knowing his own blood was a target for Robert's hired assassins.

This will no doubt cue a new theory that Ser Jorah's slaving exile was in fact a ruse to get a Stark bannerman to Essos to act as her protector, thus explaining why Jorah isn't a POV character.

[Robinvanpersie]

I prefer the scenario in which Jon comes back AS A WIGHT!!!!!!

Think about it - he’s the bizarro Targie, with dark hair and normality and sanity. Since Aegon is the PtwP, and his will be the song of fire and ice, there stands to reason that there will be an antagonist. And logically, that should be Aegon’s illegitimate, dark-haired, undead half-brother by another mother!

[Boudica]

I first have to start by apologizing for the incredible length of this post, the more I wrote the more I realized how many possibilities and potential theories actually existed.

I haven't read too many fantasy type of novels, I have gone through a lot more of historical fiction type of novels. So perhaps I could potentially interpret the situation with Jon Snow incorrectly.

From a narrative description it would not make that much sense to me if Jon is actually dead. If for example Jon is really dead, and not undead, then there are too much questions surrounding his parentage that is left unresolved.

It also wouldn't quite make sense to devote this amount of time on a character, and to kill him off two books before the end of the series. Jon has some of the most POV chapters, so there has been a big focus on him throughout the series. Of course Ned also had a lot of POV chapters, but he also died in the first book of a big series and it did make sense for him to die. Catelyn was also killed, but her story did not have that much more to say, and of course she also became an undead character, with a new story and a very different type of focus, although we dont see any of her POV's anymore.

I am quite used to characters dying because of reading many historical novels, however from a story telling perspective there is not often such a big focus on characters who just ends up dying in the middle of the story. For me personally it is not really good storytelling, when a character is almost basically killed as a novelty. Characters should and could die if it follows and make sense in the story telling process. If a main type of character or a character with such a big focus on him dies in a series or story after completing his journey fulfilling his narrative, then it is a different story and it would fit the narrative. I dont think GRRM has done this up to date, when you look at the story it is quite clear why the character who died had to be moved on from the plot and narrative. Overall I personally just see more potential for an interesting narrative if Jon Snow is actually kept alive. The only small critique that I could give on the matter is that it sometimes seems as if these dead characters are replaces by less intriguing characters or less likable characters, but it is a small quibble when looking at the series as a whole.

But on the otherhand an unJon situation could potentially be even worse and much more unsatisfying then having Jon dying off completely. There are many problems with the whole undead situation. A person who is undead is essentially in a walking dead situation. It means that the person can and will once again die, for real, at any moment. It takes a lot of suspension out of the story since you know it is only a matter of time before the person will really die. Take Lady Stoneheart as an example no one really cares what happens to her any more, everyone knows it is just a matter of time before she dies for good. Then there is also the matter of losing a part of your personality, Jon could warg into ghost and keep more of his alive spirit then some of the other undead people, I guess, but it is also not a complete solution. I just dont really see how it could matter much to a dead person who his parents are, or potentially being a prince or what effect it has on him when he discovers he is not Eddard's son. Even if the L+R=J situation is revealed to an undead Jon, it just would not mean much, what could it really mean or matter when you are already dead? Being dead already he could perhaps have some regret about not knowing about the situation earlier, but again it does not mean anything when you are already dead.

So far GRRM has not done any POV from an undead person, and I think there is some indications that he wouldn't do it in the future either. So even if unJon were to learn about his parentage it would not mean that much to the reader since GRRM would not be able to explore Jon's real emotions and feeling about the situation from his own POV. Then there is also the Azor Ahai prophecies, if Jon does come back it would point to him being Azor Ahai and having a specific purpose or a mission to complete, otherwise why would he come back at all? And again this takes some guess work out of the plot, and being an undead Azor Ahai also means that Jon will definitely die once he has completely his mission. Which would be alright, however everyone would know exactly what will happen to Jon for the next two books.

Personally I think it would be best it Jon is just kept alive. There does seem to be a lot of mystery surrounding this assassination attempt, it seems like there are quite a few options when it comes to what might happen or how the situation actually unfolded. It is quite feasible that Jon could warg into ghost whilst being in a coma, Mel or Val or some of the Night Watch brothers that are loyal to Jon could hide Jon in an ice cell or with the food provisions for a while to keep him safe from further assassination attempts.

What will happen to the wall and at the wall is a bit more difficult to guess. There are quite a few options. Perhaps someone could have freed Ghost earlier and Jon could warg into Ghost and attack his attackers directly, Jon could even perhaps warg into Wun Wun and attack his attackers directly. Being injured he obviously cant follow his mission that he and Tormund had laid out beforehand. I have seen some speculation that the whole assassination attempt might be some kind of elaborate glamour effect from Melisandre, and that Jon doesn't really suffer any injuries, I think this is the least likely option of all, Jon will have to pay some price.

I think it could be very likely that Bowen Marsh and Co. have some kind of takeover plan set in motion, where Jon would be accused of desertion, or they could accuse someone else like Wun Wun of killing Jon in the confusion. Either way it is in actual fact quite a dumb move from Marsh and co. to kill Jon at this stage, when a lot of the wildlings are already on the same side of the wall as them. The conspirators have properly been planning the plot for a while, but they have properly expected the wildlings to cause more trouble, they where properly waiting for the wildlings do something wrong so that they could blame it on Jon. The conspirators properly did not originally plan on stabbing Jon face to face. But Jon actually had the whole situation reasonably well under control. He is also the only one who can really keep all of these different factions under a reasonably measure of control at the same time. After Jon's speech it could have been quite a fearful moment for some of the other Night's Watch members, when they saw how the wildlings reacted to following Jon. It might look like, the making of a new King beyond the wall. I dont see how the situation at the wall could remain peaceful without Jon, the wildlings might fall in line at first if the take over plan succeeds, but it will not last for long. There are not enough Nights Watch members and most of the people left are not good at strategical battle planing, the wall could easily be lost against the wildlings. Of course Bowen Marsh and his fellow conspirators might even be killed directly after the assassination attempt. What the Queen and Melisandre will do in the meantime is difficult to say. The wildlings might even perhaps remove Jon to Mole's Town while he recovers.

I think that if Jon recovered with the help of magic it could more likely be with the help of the old gods, it does seem like Val could be some kind of priestess, and she could perhaps take Jon into her care. Melisandre might assist her or they might be forced to flee or work together, but I could rather see the old gods having an influence on Jon then the red god. Jon needs to learn something from the experience, coming so close to death and experiencing the betrayal of your brothers must have some deep meaning for him or a specific purpose.

Perhaps while Jon is in a coma he could speak to Bran and learn how to warg Ghost more efficiently. But at the same time I dont think he can stay in a coma for to long, since Bran basically already went through the whole coma/ warging storyline/ being in contact with a Greenseerer storyline.

But Bran might also perhaps contact Jon and tell or show him that he and Rickon, and perhaps also that the other Stark children are actually still alive, and that he has to go to Winterfell to look in the crypts for answers about his parentage.

Alternatively, Bran could just tell him the actual story of Lyanna and Rhaegar and that he has to go to the Winterfell crypts for some evidence or perhaps he has to meet Howland Reed somewhere. Bran might perhaps also give him some more insight into the the Others and the long night. There is a lot for Jon to discover and a lot that he could actually learn from Bran, if Bran had the opportunity to reach him on some kind of spiritual level. And it might be able to happen while he is warged into Ghost or in a coma.

I think a part of Jon's assassination attempt might be a way of moving things forward at the wall. I think the wall really needs to fall very soon. It is difficullt say why or how exactly the wall will fall. There are again a few options, the wall and Winterfell does seem to be connected in some way, perhaps with the fact that the wrong family are currently occupying Winterfell could have caused some the spells on the wall to weaken. It is often said that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, with the Boltons currently in command of Winterfell it might weaken the wall, and if the Wildlings and the Nights Watch are actively fighting each against other it could mean that Night Watch might just not exist anymore after the fighting is over. These factors in combination could release the Others from the spell of the wall and they might be able to climb over the walls.

Or perhaps the faceless man at the Citadel could steal Sam's horn and use it, and the wall might literally come crashing down after Jon, the Wildlings and perhaps the Queen and her followers have all fled to Mole's Town. This would also completely destroy the Nights Watch. Or perhaps the failed Hardhome mission could really become disaster for everyone. All of those wights and Others might walk into Westeros if the water freezes enough. They could actually then just attack the Nights watch from the other side of the wall.

I have also wondered how sophisticated the Others actually are, could they perhaps steal the ships and sail straight to the south? Or could the wights retain enough of a memory to take the ships and navigate them south? Properly not.

It does not really matter how it happens, the wall really just needs to fall and the Others need to start invading Westeros. All of the people are still to concerned with power and playing the game thrones. People need to start actually feeling and seeing the real threat to the realm. It is difficult to say and understand what exactly the Others might want, they might be looking for warm bodies or more babies, and there are a hell of a lot more warm bodies and babies in the south then in the north. If the Others only really occupied Westeros in the last book, it would be a bit of an empty threat and somewhat underwhelming. They are suppose to be the greatest threat in Westeros the greatest threat that the realm has ever seen, the long night night lasted 40 years, they need to start making a real impact as soon as possible, especially now that the winter is finally upon Westeros.

Jon, Sam and the band of Wildlings, and perhaps some Night Watch members who stayed loyal to Jon, could be in a very unique situation. Once the wall has fallen, they could very likely be the only people in Westeros who knows exactly how to fight the wights and the Others. They have more information about the Others then most other people in Westeros. Personally this is why I think Jon could make a real difference.

I dont really think Jon is actually Azor Ahai, the whole concept seems like a bit of a red herring to me. I dont know if we will actually ever see a real Azor Ahai. If we look at history and even still in these days, there has always been this ideal that some kind of savoir would rise to help his or her people out of some hardship. This is a very universal concept, but it is also a concept that ultimately never delivers. Every generation or civilization has their own ideas as to what exactly this savoir will be. The fact that every region within the whole world of ASOIAF, have their own name, and a different set of parameters for this type of savoir illustrates this situation well. They will most likely need more then one hero to fight against the Others, people will need to work together. If there is actually a last hero I think it is more likely that it is someone else, Dany seems like the most likely candidate. But I am not sure we will ever really know out right who this person is suppose to be. Or more likely this single savior, will never really exist.

I also have some concerns with the whole concept about Night's King as well. My memory might be failing me here, but as far as I can recall the Night's King is actually not mentioned that much in the series. He is barely mentioned a few times. Therefore I dont really think that one of the current characters could or will turn into the Night's King. The original Night's King might even still actually be alive, so there might be no need for a new one. Also if you look at the story of the Night's king it actually happened quite a few years after the invasion of the Others and the long night. I dont necessarily see it as something that needs to be repeated, especially if the original one might still be alive. Of course it might help them to understand what actually happened during this situation.

I think there are a few things that really needs to happen, the Others need to start making a much bigger impression, the wall needs to fall and the Nights Watch needs to fail or just be destroyed. It might also mean that Jon would have to leave the wall and start traveling. He might go north beyond the wall again, there he could perhaps travel to the land of always winter and try to find out more about the Others. Or he could go and search for Benjen or perhaps Bran and the children of the forest. But I think it is much more likely that he would go south at this stage. He needs to go to Winterfell, he has always had dreams and visions about the crypts of Winterfell. There is something there, and it could be twofold, it might be something to do with his parentage and it could also be something that might help or provide more information against the Others.

It is interesting to think what might be down in the crypts of Winterfell. I have always thought the mere fact that Lyanna was buried there in the first place is actually quite interesting. It is only the Kings and Lords of Winterfell who are buried in the crypt. In the story we get the idea that Ned buried her there because he loved his sister so much, but perhaps he could also just have buried her there because she was actually a princess of Westeros? It is difficult to think of what Jon could actually find down there that proves his claim as a true Targaryen, and the question is would it really matter in the bigger picture if Westoros is about to be invaded the Others?

But there might perhaps be one situation where I could perhaps see Jon proofing his lineage and getting some help in fighting against the others. In the World Book there are a few passages about when Queen Alysanne visited the north and stayed in Winterfell. There is some mention that her dragon might have laid some eggs somewhere in Winterfell. I guess it could be quite interesting if Jon could find an egg or two and actually hatch them. That would certainly prove he is a Targaryen and he would have something to use against the Others. Or Melisandre might try to hatch these eggs. But on the other hand this also causes a lot of other questions and problems, like how would Jon actually hatch these dragons, and even if these dragons would hatch somehow, they would first need to grow a lot before they could be of use, therefore it doesn't really seem like such a feasible solution. Dragons also causes a lot of issues much like the Others actually. We also might not need or see more dragons in the story, or if we actually get to see more dragons then they might be some of the older dragons that disappeared during the Targaryen reign. It would be really interesting to see two sets of dragonriders, but this is properly not going to happen, there is most likely something much more practical down in the crypt.

Winterfell is usually known as the last defense before the Others attack Westeros, it was also build with some kind of magic to defend itself against the White Walkers. It is quite convenient that most of the north is already gathered there. I think Ramsey wrote the pink letter prematurely, and by the time Jon and perhaps his party has reached the wall, Stannis (and perhaps Rickon and Davos) would already be in command of Winterfell after a victory against the Boltons. Stannis might capture Ramsey or he might be killed during the battle, but Roose will properly escape (only to be killed by the White Walkers and come back as a wight or something like that). Everyone in north could perhaps gather at Winterfell (or atleast all of the different Houses), for example Howland Reed might know that Winterfell is the last defense against the Others and he might also decide to go to Winterfell. He could also then perhaps confirm Jon's lineage or produce some evidence, or perhaps he could just tell Jon what actually happened at the ToJ. He could also then produce Robb's will, however with Rickon being alive and Jon learning about his true heritage he would not be interested in Winterfell, but he must feel something about Robb seeing him as his true brother.

I dont really think the Others will launch a big attack or concentrate much on Winterfell, they have bigger fish to fry, and they could have a much easier time in the south. But with the battle of Stannis and the Boltons at Winterfell there will potentially be a lot of corpses, so there might potentially be a lot wights to keep them busy. The dream Jon had of standing on top of a wall clad in black ice, swinging a burning sword against people who he has seen before, might be the battle they wage at Winterfell against these wights, or it might not be.

After reaching Winterfell and having Jon find out what he has to find out in the crypts, Jon and some of the wildlings could also lead a party further south and try to warn the rest of the realm or perhaps the rest of the north again the coming of the White Walkers. I doubt that the south will actually listen to Jon, but they might still try something like that. He could also meet Howland Reed on this journey while he is perhaps warning the north against the Others.

A lot of people seem to think that Jon needs to die in order to be free of his Night's Watch vows, and it makes a lot of sense to a certain degree. But at the same time people who are revived lose a part of themselves they are not really human anymore, it could help to warg into Ghost for a while but that situation actually has exactly the same problems. A warg cant stay in his animal for too long or he becomes more and more wolf, and he forget about his human side. Essentially both of these situations carries exactly the same problems. If this situation actually occurs where both of these effects are visited upon an unJon, then we could really see a very strange and properly cold Jon.

And from a more practical point of view, even if Jon is revived it would be quite difficult to prove that he was really dead, the people around the wall doesn't know anything about the revivals of red god, the only dead people they have ever seen who were revived, was wights. Jon would very likely still just be seen as a deserter of the Nights Watch. Jon has the potential for a lot of interesting stories when it comes to internal conflict, and throughout all of the books a lot of Jon's personality is displayed through these internal conflicts. There is the question of his parents and his real lineage, but his desertion from the Nights Watch could also be another internal conflict for him. It might be interesting if Jon just decided to desert the Night Watch out of his own accord, it would be a very difficult decision for him that would properly haunt him, but he might just think or realize that the Night's Watch rules and the older brigade might be too conservative to really fight effectively against the real threat. It would be a big decision for him to actually break his vows completely.

It could also be interesting if he is in a coma or still very weak, and some of the Wildlings (and perhaps the Queen, her followers, and a few of the Night's Watch brothers who are still loyal to Jon and then perhaps Melisandre) flees from the wall.

Whilst they have reached safety, perhaps temporary in Mole's Town and whilst Jon is still recovering they somehow learn that the Others have breach the wall or that the wall has fallen and Nights Watch have been destroyed. Jon might have felt a bit bitter about the assignation attempt, but I think he would still feel really guilty in such a situation, he might feel that he should have stayed at the wall and he should have defended the wall as his vows states. I cant see that any of these situations would mean much of anything if Jon was to become an undead person. We would never see the internal struggles for his character, if he just becomes another revived person.

Healing Jon by using some form of magic is a different story, I could see that happening, perhaps even the sacrifice of Theon to help Jon recover. Although they might just decide to use Theon and Ramsey as sacrifices for hatching dragon eggs, that could also be an interesting solution (which properly means it will not happen).

We have often seen cliffhangers where it appears as if a character might have died, only for them to actually be alive. I just personally see much more potential for Jon's character if he stays alive. But then again I could be completely wrong especially since I am not traditionally that well acquainted with the fantasy genre, there are really endless options for what might actually happen. I again have to humbly apologize for the massive length of this post.

[bemused]

The thing I've come to think that's important, that many people overlook completely is Jon's sparring duel with Iron Emmett.. I also think that Jon's wounds are not as serious as most people believe , if you really pick apart what's going on in the assassination scene..

So, I think Ghost will be released and Jon will rise up off the ground in full "berserker" mode. We've seen hints of it in both Jon's attacks on Thorne and, probably in a milder form, when he yanks the spear out of the frozen ground (after observing that it must have taken the wildlings a long time to bury it) ... and dramatically, in the case of Emmett.

I believe that Jon's control at the wall will be maintained (in the immediate future). His wounds will be tended by (probably) Morna and Val (weirwood-based medicines?)... Selyse, whose knight has broken guest right in attacking Wun-Wun ,will become more captive than guest. Mel may or may not be able to locate Ramsay for him, but I think it will be revealed that Val can. His plans to face Ramsay and the Hardhome mission must probably go forward , in some form.

But the very next threat at the wall (other than Ramsay) may not come from the Others, but from the Weeper , unless the Others have since killed off his whole band ( if Mallister notices the Weeper's fires have suddenly gone out, that will be a really bad sign).

I don't think Jon will go to WF just yet, but he'll become more obviously a de facto king (the-king-at-the-wall ?), as predicted by Mormont's raven just before Jon lets Tormund's people in .. “Corn,” the bird said, and, “King,” and, “Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow.” ... and as evidenced by his reception in the shieldhall.

At the same time, I think Stannis is in for a surprise when WF is retaken , not by him, but Northmen .. though I think they will give him shelter , as an ally.

Stannis and Mel may now find their plans subject to Jon's approval, rather than the reverse.

[Sielk]

There is another point that bothers me about the idea of Jon being resurrected or brought back to life in any form. It simply doesn't make much sense regarding good storytelling.

Only assumed that GRRM really plans to resurrect him somehow: Why does he not confirm Jon's death in the book? In this case we would all have been shocked and would discuss for the next years until the release of WOW how the story can go on.

Also if he is really dead (but I don't believe that): Why not shocking all fans with that?

In my opinion not confirming his death and letting all readers in uncertainty only makes sense if Jon is not really going to die from his wounds.

But that's only my interpretation. I don't know if GRRM thinks like that. How do you think about this?

[ladyinblack]

I always respond to Jon speculation threads - I never get tired of it. I also really think Martin is a brilliant organizer, and AGoT IS Martin's "game plan" for the series.

On rereads, the elements of foreshadowing, and "preplanning" in regards to Martin's craft, are pure genius - and in some cases, sassy Martin-like gags. For instance, Bran recalls Theon jesting about Hodor only being able to say "HODOR". Karma's a bitch: Theon says, paraphrase 'He sure knows his own name - no one can doubt that." This foreshadows Theon learning his new name: "Reek", and it brings to mind Theon trying to get Jeyne Poole to remember HER name: Arya.

Also, when Theon inspects Jon's white direwolf, he says, "A freak", which, ironically, rhymes with Reek.

Bran associates "faces" with masks that can be removed and returned: Bran says Ned takes off Father's face to don the face of Lord Stark of WF. Oh - these are but a few of many examples in each POV.

With that said, Martin is a masterful storyteller who is not going to jeopardize such a well-crafted "song" with bizarre, unfamiliar, unlikely events occurring. I, personally, have been waiting for Jon to warg Ghost. I would be disappointed if Martin does not include a Ghost POV. I enjoy when Martin writes from Summer's POV in Bran's narratives, so I am sure Martin will not disappoint readers who, I think, expect this to happen - and have been lead to "believe" this will happen. Actually, I think Jon's "caesaring" has been Jon's fate from the beginning - hints lurk in AGoT.

Jon's "fate" will be one of several ways Martin will reveal Bran's powers - I think Bran's primary goal will be to bring the litter together - in a magical way that only Martin can write with flare.[/quote

I like this well written viewpoint also think it likely Jon will Warg Ghost temporarily but besides the "cesaring" It felt as though some other power was at work here. Jon's reaction to the letter & the events that followed . All seemed manipulated.

[JonSleet]

Jon must be azor ahai.therefore not dead not sure how they will do it. but I reckon at some point dany comes to westeros her and Jon fall in love,Jon finds out he's rheagars son. The Jon (Azor Ahai) will stab danaerys (nissa nissa) through the heart once Mel tells him this is how to fulfill the prophecy.

I'd put any money on it.

[barristan-b]

I'm more on the Marwyn train when it comes to prophesies so don't think it has to be a moment where someone is recognized as a prophetic powerful being. AA, tPtwP, etc. Characters may have traits or seem similar but I don't think they're legitimately anyone reborn or a second coming type.

Also, Mel's role fascinates me but I think this is where Howland comes into the equation. We know Meera described him as strong, smart, and brave since his youth (including his Isle of Faces trip) and many think he used magic at the ToJ to save Eddard. It'd be poetic to have him save Jon essentially from the Nights Watch who I think are going to be doomed. Also, Bloodraven was most likely in the cave beyond the wall when Howland visited the Isle of Faces. It makes me wonder about the weirwood net theory and if BR communicated with him through the Green Men back when. Howland may know through that experience he needs to be there for Jon at some point after leading the way to his birth at Harrenhall and the ToJ.

[Drogonthedread]

No, she very clearly states:

Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

She is seeing R'hollor's king...R'hollor's instrument.

No, she very clearly states:

Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

She is seeing R'hollor's king...R'hollor's instrument.

and when she asks this the vision she gets is this

Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument. Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

and suddenly she remembers about the girl in the horse and she start asking for the girl and thats when she sees about daggers in the dark not when asking for stannis or Azar ahoi

[Drogonthedread]

Wonderful thread! I've reread ADWD paying special attention to Jon and now I'm convinced he is indeed destined to be Azor Ahai reborn.

-When the red star bleeds, amidst smoke and salt...

Ser Patrek's sigil is a red star. And oh how Wun Wun made him bleed.

Early in ADWD, Jon accompanies Marsh while he takes inventory. The only foodstuff in overabundance is salt.

Jon's wounds smoke. I actually believe this is steam, since hot blood will do that when it's ass freezing outside!

-Jon's wounds are undoubtedly fatal. He takes a knife right between the shoulder blades. If it didn't penetrate his heart, it at least severed his spinal cord. Modern medicine could not treat such a wound, much less the primitive Westeros medicine.

-His last word is "Ghost". I believe its utterance shows Jon has warged into his beast and thus his mind/spirit/soul will be protected from the process of undying him...mostly.

-Mel is the obvious choice for kissing Jon back to life. Thoros or Stoneheart? Maybe, but what a plot mess it would be to get them into the same place. Mel is already there, and she's a servant of this R'Hlor, so she's the one. And I believe when she kisses life back into Jon's corpse she will finally realize he is the true Azor Ahai reborn.

-Bringing the stone dragons to life? I think this has a few metaphorical meanings. One, Jon is Rhaegar Targaryen's son. The blood of the dragon will literally be brought back to life. But I see another more menacing metaphore: Marsh and his conspirators have unwittingly succeeded in "waking the dragon" in Jon.

One other clue I noticed in the opening of Jon's second to last chapter, in his dream:

Jon will return as mostly-Jon. As Jon, but with the dragon awakened. Fire and Blood will follow with it.

*Major caveat: this is all assuming Martin ever finishes his song. I think he's too scared to finish it. He's afraid the ending won't measure up to the journey. Two books left will grow to three once TWOW is published, perpetually leaving the series two books away from the end. Valar Morghulis - best not get too emotionally involved in this series.

Ser patrek sigil is blue star and hence it is blue star bleeding seriously salt from the foodstore and tears ...even if we count them he is not reborn he is dying and he certainly not drawing a flaming sword either

and somehow i dont think GRRM is going to make a person who was created because he lost a bet against his friend's dallas cowboy team (whose logo is also a blue star) as a part of the prophecy so central to the story

[Drogonthedread]

i dont think jon is dead but he is severely wounded and warged into Ghost at the end of the chapter ...like we see in the bran's dreams

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

i believe he will be kept in the ice cell while ghost escapes Wall..and he will be there for a while even for half of TWOW