Role in WoW: Jon Snow (Spoilers):

[TheWargintheNorth]

I think that Jon is dead and Melisandre will resurrect him but he'll go crazy like Catelyn.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

I'm shocked I've seen no mention of Mirri Maz Dur and her blood magic resurrection of Khal Drogo.

We know of three ways to defeat death in ASoIaF- Blood magic, the Kiss of Life, and Qyburn's necromancy. If Jon truly is 'Azor Azai', he's not going to get the same resurrection treatment that a minor character like Beric Dondarrion got.

From what we know of the kiss of life, it brings those that R'hllor isn't finished with back to "life" as a revenant. Beric Donddarion was brought back several times, and lost more and more of himself each time he was given life. Catelyn Stark was even worse, having been dead so long by the time Donddarion gave her the kiss, and seems capable of little more than wanting vengeance for her children against the Freys.

But Drogo- he was brought back to actual life, though his soul was already gone to the Night Lands making him little more than an empty vessel.

Ghost makes this not a problem for Jon. His warging into Ghost resolves the problem of Drogo's resurrection to a fully healthy state.

And Mel just so happens to be from Asshai, where blood magic is known. This is where my money is.

[GERM]

I'm shocked I've seen no mention of Mirri Maz Dur and her blood magic resurrection of Khal Drogo.

We know of three ways to defeat death in ASoIaF- Blood magic, the Kiss of Life, and Qyburn's necromancy. If Jon truly is 'Azor Azai', he's not going to get the same resurrection treatment that a minor character like Beric Dondarrion got.

From what we know of the kiss of life, it brings those that R'hllor isn't finished with back to "life" as a revenant. Beric Donddarion was brought back several times, and lost more and more of himself each time he was given life. Catelyn Stark was even worse, having been dead so long by the time Donddarion gave her the kiss, and seems capable of little more than wanting vengeance for her children against the Freys.

But Drogo- he was brought back to actual life, though his soul was already gone to the Night Lands making him little more than an empty vessel.

Ghost makes this not a problem for Jon. His warging into Ghost resolves the problem of Drogo's resurrection to a fully healthy state.

And Mel just so happens to be from Asshai, where blood magic is known. This is where my money is.

I like this.

[Coluber]

Why does everyone want Jon to warg into Ghost? If that were to happen, Jon's actions would be limited - wolves don't have thumbs. Besides, despite being stabbed multiple times, Jon has a good chance of surviving, or so says several cracked articles: http://www.cracked.com/article_19698_7-deadly-things-you-wont-believe-most-people-survive.html and http://www.cracked.com/article_20775_7-horrifying-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-prison.html along with http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-city-woman-survives-despite-being-stabbed-40-times-report-says/ and http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-city-woman-survives-despite-being-stabbed-40-times-report-says/ . I honestly don't know why people say that Jon surviving a few multiple stabs would be a cop out. It would however change his views on things and change the shift of power within the Night's Watch, which will definitely take a more proactive role in Westeros.

[JonSnowed]

Since I first saw the TV show (I started reading the books afterwards) I have thought Jon will be alive until the end of the series and most probably end up ruling in some capacity. Having read his stabbing in ADWD and then some of the many theories on the net I am convinced this is only a way to free him from his nights watch vows and that he will be a POV in WoW either as Jon or Azor Azai.

[Noemia]

I'm shocked I've seen no mention of Mirri Maz Dur and her blood magic resurrection of Khal Drogo.

We know of three ways to defeat death in ASoIaF- Blood magic, the Kiss of Life, and Qyburn's necromancy. If Jon truly is 'Azor Azai', he's not going to get the same resurrection treatment that a minor character like Beric Dondarrion got.

From what we know of the kiss of life, it brings those that R'hllor isn't finished with back to "life" as a revenant. Beric Donddarion was brought back several times, and lost more and more of himself each time he was given life. Catelyn Stark was even worse, having been dead so long by the time Donddarion gave her the kiss, and seems capable of little more than wanting vengeance for her children against the Freys.

But Drogo- he was brought back to actual life, though his soul was already gone to the Night Lands making him little more than an empty vessel.

Ghost makes this not a problem for Jon. His warging into Ghost resolves the problem of Drogo's resurrection to a fully healthy state.

And Mel just so happens to be from Asshai, where blood magic is known. This is where my money is.

I like this.

Me too! She could also use Shireen for the blood magic ritual (blood of a king).

[Gabriel Moura]

Catelyn will give Jon a kiss, forgiving Ned and accepting Jon as a "Stark". Then, her role in the story will be finished.

[GERM]

Since I first saw the TV show (I started reading the books afterwards) I have thought Jon will be alive until the end of the series and most probably end up ruling in some capacity. Having read his stabbing in ADWD and then some of the many theories on the net I am convinced this is only a way to free him from his nights watch vows and that he will be a POV in WoW either as Jon or Azor Azai.

Considering Martin has stated in an interview in regards to abandoning the 5 year gap plan and used his writing of Jon as an example tells me that he has plans for Jon beyond what he is written (since these books cover the gap).

Why does everyone want Jon to warg into Ghost? If that were to happen, Jon's actions would be limited - wolves don't have thumbs. Besides, despite being stabbed multiple times, Jon has a good chance of surviving, or so says several cracked articles: http://www.cracked.com/article_19698_7-deadly-things-you-wont-believe-most-people-survive.html and http://www.cracked.com/article_20775_7-horrifying-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-prison.html along with http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-city-woman-survives-despite-being-stabbed-40-times-report-says/ and http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-city-woman-survives-despite-being-stabbed-40-times-report-says/ . I honestly don't know why people say that Jon surviving a few multiple stabs would be a cop out. It would however change his views on things and change the shift of power within the Night's Watch, which will definitely take a more proactive role in Westeros.

I don't want it to happen, but Melisandre did foreshadow it, so it has a lot of credible backing. It, unfortunately, is likely true, as stupid as it seems.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

Considering Martin has stated in an interview in regards to abandoning the 5 year gap plan and used his writing of Jon as an example tells me that he has plans for Jon beyond what he is written (since these books cover the gap).

I don't want it to happen, but Melisandre did foreshadow it, so it has a lot of credible backing. It, unfortunately, is likely true, as stupid as it seems.

I think a lot of the resistance to the idea of Jon warging into Ghost to avoid death is because people don't like the 'cheap' resurrections of the 'Kiss of Life' bringing characters back as revenants that are decidedly different from their original selves.

Jon wouldn't need to warg into Ghost if Melisandre just gave him the kiss, which would render Varyamr Sixskin's Skinchanging 101 prologue pretty much worthless.

In the blood magic scenario I think is likely, Jon would need to warg into Ghost and then back into his healthy body, and he would still be himself without the undead thing, or losing his memories.

That would make the 'kiss' resurrections a misdirection. Not to mention that the reader is left to believe the blood magic resurrection of Drogo is a failure.

GRRM is trying to direct your attention away from the hand with a cookie in it.

[GERM]

I think a lot of the resistance to the idea of Jon warging into Ghost to avoid death is because people don't like the 'cheap' resurrections of the 'Kiss of Life' bringing characters back as revenants that are decidedly different from their original selves.

Jon wouldn't need to warg into Ghost if Melisandre just gave him the kiss, which would render Varyamr Sixskin's Skinchanging 101 prologue pretty much worthless.

In the blood magic scenario I think is likely, Jon would need to warg into Ghost and then back into his healthy body, and he would still be himself without the undead thing, or losing his memories.

That would make the 'kiss' resurrections a misdirection. Not to mention that the reader is left to believe the blood magic resurrection of Drogo is a failure.

GRRM is trying to direct your attention away from the hand with a cookie in it.

Either way is cheap. They are pointless plot elements unless it leads to him becoming something more, like AA. If it happened for him to simply be Jon again, it was useless.

I am positive that it is going to happen, the text is pretty clear on it, I just think it is stupid. Again, we do need an AA though.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

Either way is cheap. They are pointless plot elements unless it leads to him becoming something more, like AA. If it happened for him to simply be Jon again, it was useless.

I am positive that it is going to happen, the text is pretty clear on it, I just think it is stupid. Again, we do need an AA though.

Oh, I see what you're getting at. I'm not saying he's coming back as just himself. For him to die and come back at all, he HAS to be AA.

Where I mentioned coming back as himself, I was speaking just of him not forgetting himself like Beric and Stoneheart have. He will be Jon Snow, reborn as Azor Ahai, or I agree, it's really dumb.

[GERM]

Oh, I see what you're getting at. I'm not saying he's coming back as just himself. For him to die and come back at all, he HAS to be AA.

Where I mentioned coming back as himself, I was speaking just of him not forgetting himself like Beric and Stoneheart have. He will be Jon Snow, reborn as Azor Ahai, or I agree, it's really dumb.

Then we agree. I probably articulated my point poorly.

[Arkash]

Crackpot theory :

While dead, Jon will encounter R'hllor (maybe during the brief moment of the eventual kiss of life) who'll make him know he's AA and he'll resurect with that knowledge in mind and maybe some special abilities.

Completely crackpot but at this point it is undeniable that there is a cosmic aspect to the story, so maybe Jon will be our gate to understand it more and first hand.

[Red Rollo]

I think a lot of the resistance to the idea of Jon warging into Ghost to avoid death is because people don't like the 'cheap' resurrections of the 'Kiss of Life' bringing characters back as revenants that are decidedly different from their original selves.

Jon wouldn't need to warg into Ghost if Melisandre just gave him the kiss, which would render Varyamr Sixskin's Skinchanging 101 prologue pretty much worthless.

In the blood magic scenario I think is likely, Jon would need to warg into Ghost and then back into his healthy body, and he would still be himself without the undead thing, or losing his memories.

That would make the 'kiss' resurrections a misdirection. Not to mention that the reader is left to believe the blood magic resurrection of Drogo is a failure.

GRRM is trying to direct your attention away from the hand with a cookie in it.

This is a very solid theory Bog Devil. Textually supported premises and a tightly constructed, logical argument. The necessity of Jon returning as Azor Ahai, however, is far less supported. To Me, this statement:

Oh, I see what you're getting at. I'm not saying he's coming back as just himself. For him to die and come back at all, he HAS to be AA.

Where I mentioned coming back as himself, I was speaking just of him not forgetting himself like Beric and Stoneheart have. He will be Jon Snow, reborn as Azor Ahai, or I agree, it's really dumb.

doesn't have as much power as your original blood magic theory. Arguing that Jon is required to return as Azor Ahai simply be because HAS to do so commits the logical fallacy of "Begging the question", using the conclusion of an argument as it's premise. And, to argue that for Jon to be resurrected as Jon the Man is pointless and "dumb" is to imply that there is no good reason at all for Jon's return to life as a mere human being. There is a very good reason: Jon must escape from his Night's Watch vows to fulfill his entirely human destiny as KitN and/or Lord of Winterfell, not as the "Chosen One". Jon, as a person, has a very pivotal role to play in the remainder of this story, and his vows, which he take very very seriously, stand in the way of that role.

Besides, those who equate the tears of a peripheral character with "salt" and steam with "smoke" to support "Jon as AA" seem to be engaged in a kind of wish fulfillment that stretches credulity to it's limits. Tears do not necessarily symbolize salt and steam is not smoke, it's water vapor. Furthermore, Mel's inability to see anything but snow when she asks the flames to show her Azor Ahai smacks more of the classic GRRM misdirection that you refer to above than of evidence that Jon is some sort of supernatural demigod returned from the dead to save the world. Martin doesn't strike me as an author who really buys into the whole Jesus myth. On the contrary, the overall arc of his story thus far seems to be bending toward a pretty scathing indictment of religion in general.

[Bog Devil of Greywater]

This is a very solid theory Bog Devil. Textually supported premises and a tightly constructed, logical argument. The necessity of Jon returning as Azor Ahai, however, is far less supported. To Me, this statement:

doesn't have as much power as your original blood magic theory. Arguing that Jon is required to return as Azor Ahai simply be because HAS to do so commits the logical fallacy of "Begging the question", using the conclusion of an argument as it's premise. And, to argue that for Jon to be resurrected as Jon the Man is pointless and "dumb" is to imply that there is no good reason at all for Jon's return to life as a mere human being. There is a very good reason: Jon must escape from his Night's Watch vows to fulfill his entirely human destiny as KitN and/or Lord of Winterfell, not as the "Chosen One". Jon, as a person, has a very pivotal role to play in the remainder of this story, and his vows, which he take very very seriously, stand in the way of that role.

Besides, those who equate the tears of a peripheral character with "salt" and steam with "smoke" to support "Jon as AA" seem to be engaged in a kind of wish fulfillment that stretches credulity to it's limits. Tears do not necessarily symbolize salt and steam is not smoke, it's water vapor. Furthermore, Mel's inability to see anything but snow when she asks the flames to show her Azor Ahai smacks more of the classic GRRM misdirection that you refer to above than of evidence that Jon is some sort of supernatural demigod returned from the dead to save the world. Martin doesn't strike me as an author who really buys into the whole Jesus myth. On the contrary, the overall arc of his story thus far seems to be bending toward a pretty scathing indictment of religion in general.

Thanks!

I wasn't trying to support the blood magic argument with the statement you're taking issue with, really. I was trying simply to find where GERM and I were disconnecting in our back-and-forth. When I realized my poor phrasing of Jon 'coming back as himself' under the blood magic theory was likely the culprit, I off-handedly included Jon having to be AA for the resurrection to be possible to begin with. Any scenario of Jon coming back as something more beneficial to the realm can easily be substituted. I also said it would be dumb if he weren't, 'tis true, but that was really just personal preference peeking through. You could have read 'dumb' as 'cheap', and it would have amounted to the same thing- I was aknowledging that GERM and I were of the same opinion on a matter of preference. So what I'm saying to you there is that I'm far less attached to that particular set of ideas than it may seem.

I see it working out for Jon one of four ways- He's a bastard, and AA, and he's important to the Song but not the Game, or he's legitimate, important to the Game but not the Song- and he's the legit heir to both the North through decree, and the Throne through lineage (once fAegon puts the Targaryen claim back on the IT), or he's legitimate, and AA, which means he'd be important in both the Song and the Game. Or finally, he's a bastard, AA, and nobody cares what his bloodline is toward the end when he has become a great hero of the realm- he could take the throne as a bastard with overwhelming popular support and be important to both Song and Game. All of those scenarios have some level of plausibility in the text, and it becomes a matter of thinking which is most likely.

Myself, I like the idea that both Dany and Jon die to save Westeros and that the Targaryen line is extinguished. No men are actually native to Westeros, but the Targaryens especially so. They didn't migrate naturally to Westeros like the First Men, the Andals, or the Rhoynar. They came to Westeros with fire and blood from Old Valyria seeking to find a place to rule and to save their lineage from the Doom. So ultimately, my preference for events, and something with good and logical symmetry is that the Targ line dies to save the people they once conquered to save themselves. And it fits with the idea that being a hero comes with a price.

So, it doesn't matter to me which one of them (Jon or Dany) is AA. But- I don't buy the Drogon is Lightbringer theories, simply because we've been given so much detail about Lightbringer being a physical sword. All of the other prophecy surrounding AA is vague and malleable, but we're given hard details about how the sword was made, what made it magical, the sacrifice required, and the failures along the way. It doesn't leave much room in my mind for it to be anything other than what it's described as, which would point directly to Jon over Dany as he can actually use a sword.

To clarify and finish- Something I may think is cheap or dumb in theory is often dispelled in the books by Martins' writing. For example, I think it's pretty outlandish that a minor Lord like Littlefinger with his initial minor holdings, power, wealth, and a conspicuous lack of an ARMY can consistantly find allies to take on far more powerful, influential, and wealthy lords with big steel-clad armies- and win without ever being suspected. It takes some plotting magic and a whole lot of suspense of disbelief to abide it, but that doesn't mean I don't like Littlefinger or enjoy reading about him. He tends to weave his story in such a way that even the most unbelievable stuff is given lie through events.

[DoinemdirtyINC]

At the end of Dance with Dragons, you see how Jon starts to trust Mel. I firmly believe, the same way she swapped Rattlesnake and Mance, she protected Jon as well. It appeared that he was murdered, but I don't see that to be the case. Been a little bit since I read the last book, but I do believe he wasn't in his body when the attack took place. Whether he is in Ghost or someone else, only time will tell. Personally, Mel seen in the flames that the Queen was trying to have Jon killed. That is the reasoning behind his attack. It was either kill Jon or everybody else be killed. Mel has to create an illusion of Jon's death so everybody believes he is dead. He probably is on his way to winter fell or to save the other wildlings. Stannis definitely isn't dead and wrote that letter himself that we are lead to believe Ramsay wrote. Ramsay didn't write that letter, as the letter first off wasn't sealed and secondly Ramsay didn't send any body parts or none of that with the letter. Not to mention, if stannis were dead, the Ramsay would have his Reek back already and not demanding for his reek back. Mel's vision through the flames pretty much has let her know that Stannis is not AA, but is the rightful king....and he is supposed to lead the attack on the whitewalkers/others. When Mel looked in the flames for AA, it didn't show Jon's face either....all she could see is snow. Which really isn't guaranteeing who AA is. As we know Jon's last name is Snow, but we also can't forget Stannis is stuck right outside Winterfell in a snow storm. So, AA still isn't clear yet though I have reason to believe it is Jon and Mel does as well. As she has clearly turned on Stannis and going hard for Jon Snow. Theon will not be killed, but the truth will come out that the Starks are still alive. Stannis will win the battle. Rickon will appear in this book and ultimately will end up with Stannis. Mance will be killed....Jeyne will have to escape once Jon makes it to Winterfell as Jon will know it's not Arya. Though I'm just not sure if Jon makes it to Winterfell in his own body, or another one Mel sets him up with. Can't wait to know for sure though. Just remember from everything we've already read from George's 5 books that whatever takes place in WOW, it won't be easily predicted

[GERM]

At the end of Dance with Dragons, you see how Jon starts to trust Mel. I firmly believe, the same way she swapped Rattlesnake and Mance, she protected Jon as well. It appeared that he was murdered, but I don't see that to be the case. Been a little bit since I read the last book, but I do believe he wasn't in his body when the attack took place. Whether he is in Ghost or someone else, only time will tell. Personally, Mel seen in the flames that the Queen was trying to have Jon killed. That is the reasoning behind his attack. It was either kill Jon or everybody else be killed. Mel has to create an illusion of Jon's death so everybody believes he is dead. He probably is on his way to winter fell or to save the other wildlings. Stannis definitely isn't dead and wrote that letter himself that we are lead to believe Ramsay wrote. Ramsay didn't write that letter, as the letter first off wasn't sealed and secondly Ramsay didn't send any body parts or none of that with the letter. Not to mention, if stannis were dead, the Ramsay would have his Reek back already and not demanding for his reek back. Mel's vision through the flames pretty much has let her know that Stannis is not AA, but is the rightful king....and he is supposed to lead the attack on the whitewalkers/others. When Mel looked in the flames for AA, it didn't show Jon's face either....all she could see is snow. Which really isn't guaranteeing who AA is. As we know Jon's last name is Snow, but we also can't forget Stannis is stuck right outside Winterfell in a snow storm. So, AA still isn't clear yet though I have reason to believe it is Jon and Mel does as well. As she has clearly turned on Stannis and going hard for Jon Snow. Theon will not be killed, but the truth will come out that the Starks are still alive. Stannis will win the battle. Rickon will appear in this book and ultimately will end up with Stannis. Mance will be killed....Jeyne will have to escape once Jon makes it to Winterfell as Jon will know it's not Arya. Though I'm just not sure if Jon makes it to Winterfell in his own body, or another one Mel sets him up with. Can't wait to know for sure though. Just remember from everything we've already read from George's 5 books that whatever takes place in WOW, it won't be easily predicted

What did I just read.....

You do recall that we have his POV placing him at the wall and experiencing the attack, correct?

Also, if you read the chapter regarding her visions, you'll see that it says "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow." The capitalized letter indicates a name, not frozen rain drops. Pretty big indicator, but hey, who knows right?

[sj4iy]

I don't see Jon coming back as anyone but Jon. If he's AAR, then he's simply the new hero who will lead humanity against the Others...I don't see anywhere that he will necessarily be the reincarnation of the original AA- simply that he is the promised prince who will fight the White Walkers. I would rather see Jon struggle with the idea of being the promised prince than simply just knowing that he is...it makes for better drama.

[SansaSeastar]

I believe, like most, that he is alive.

Don't think he will be resurrected, it has been done 2 times already. To predictable. + nobody benefits from UnJon, not the Night Watch, not the North and certainly not Jon himself.

I think Jon will be in a coma stage just like Bran was in AGOT, and just like Bloodraven visited Bran, Bran will visit Jon. This is how he will discover who his real parents are and he will also finish his dream about the crypts. Theon will be sacrified to wake Jon. A life for a life, just like Lady with Bran and Dany with her dragons.

Before he is able to travel, Stannis will have beaten the Bolton's and Jon will eventually return to an already retaken Winterfell. He will break his oath to the watch (like he already did, Jon is not perfect and the ones saying he wouldn't do that forget that he already did it right before his assassination), he can't stay there, it's not safe.
I also don't see anything in the theory that since he has been dead his watch has ended, to predictable and way to easy. Couple of weeks ago someone said something along the lines of; 'who will stop him, who will punish him for it? They are outnumbered and if Jon survives they certainly won't have the chance to do it again.' I think that person was right. In the end Jon will still feel loyalty to the Night's Watch and eventually will return with troops to fight the Others but his time as a 'real' member of the watch will be over. For some he will always be an oathbreaker for others he will be the hero.

I can see him becoming King in the North, I also see something in the theory of a marriage between Sansa and Jon. I know a lot don't like this idea but what if Rickon dies? Many believe he will. I just don't see Bran as lord of Winterfell/King in the North. Sansa is the heir after them but in a world like Westeros women will not be seen as a good choice. Jon on the other hand is a Stark, proved himself in battle and most importantly is a man. Most will prefer him, they need a strong leader, winter is coming... but one thing they do not need is a 'Dance of Wolves'. How do you avoid such a thing from happening? Yes a marriage between Jon and Sansa. The biggest argument people have against it is that Jon and Sansa would not want it, 'They grew up as brother and sister!' ... 'They can't look at each other in any other way!' The point is, that doesn't matter, they will have to. They will do what is necessary to keep House Stark going.

[Edmure's Floppy Fish]

What did I just read.....

You do recall that we have his POV placing him at the wall and experiencing the attack, correct?

Also, if you read the chapter regarding her visions, you'll see that it says "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow." The capitalized letter indicates a name, not frozen rain drops. Pretty big indicator, but hey, who knows right?

GERM, you maybe my favorite member of this forum...[emoji38] You should try to become a MOD!