Role in WoW: Jon Snow (Spoilers):

[GERM]

GERM, you maybe my favorite member of this forum...[emoji38] You should try to become a MOD!

I have too many anti-Martin sentiments to ever be considered for that position. Lol.

[Edmure's Floppy Fish]

I have too many anti-Martin sentiments to ever be considered for that position. Lol.

I know.. I stopped creating threads because they would not get approved or would ultimately get locked. I'm not so much Anti-Martin as I am a realist and can't blindly praise him while ignoring the facts.

Your right, if anyone like us were to be mods Martin may stop endorsing the website and I know two people that would hate that!

[GERM]

I know.. I stopped creating threads because they would not get approved or would ultimately get locked. I'm not so much Anti-Martin as I am a realist and can't blindly praise him while ignoring the facts.

Your right, if anyone like us were to be mods Martin may stop endorsing the website and I know two people that would hate that!

I am a realist too. I genuinely have lost respect for him as a person.

[BloodandFire85]

This is my first time commenting on any forum ever! I have just finished reading all the books and to be honest I went thru them quick. I started watching the show and NEEDED to know what happened next,...so I picked up the books. Being an obsessed fan and reading a book series that is not complete is also new to me. I have never read a book for entertainment value and then discussed it like in an English class as happens in this forum but I think I have now become addicted since I have no book to continue with. So having read thru the books once without trying to interpret the higher meaning of anything and reading thru this topic, here goes what I think Jon Snow’s role in WoW will be, and it’s basically choice C.

1. First off, if there is one thing I have picked up on reading GRRM is that if you have not explicitly read that someone has died, they probably have not. So I don’t think Jon is dead and I don’t think he will die from this knife attack. I think he will recover from this.

I’m borrowing research - Bright Blue Eyes, on 09 Oct 2013 - 1:34 PM, said:

1. Bran - Game
Ser Jaime throws him of a tower. Dead by impact.

2. Arya - Game
Yoren goes for her face with a blade, she fights him unsuccessfully. A cut throat, dead. Her last chapter in the book.

3. Bran - Clash
Theon knows where Bran and company are hiding. He will show no mercy. 200 pages before Bran is confirmed alive.

4. Jaime - Clash
Insults Cat repeatedly. Cat demands a sword. Last chapter in the book.

5. Davos - Clash
Drifts into the burning chain. Last chapter in the book.

6. Theon - Clash
Is on the losing end of the Battle of Winterfell turning into wholesale slaughter. Won't be seen for two books.

7. Jaime - Storm
Vargo Hoat sends a message to Lord Tywin. An arakh descends.

8. Cat - Storm
Red Wedding.. Well, she actually dies. Not the end of her story though.

9. Arya - Storm
The Hound's axe took her in the back of the head.

10. Davos - Storm
Stannis is ready to take his head off.

10a. Arya - Feast
Not dead, but blinded. Last chapter in the book.

11. Brienne - Feast
Hanged. Last chapter in the book.

12. Tyrion - Dance
Drowns in the Rhoyne.

13. Davos - Dance
Lord Manderly orders him executed. Was backed up in Feast.

14. Asha - Dance
Finishing blow with an axe.

15. Theon - Dance
Rowan promised to kill him after visiting "Abel".

16. Theon - Dance
Jumps down a 40-foot wall.

17. Jon - Dance
Gets caesared. Last chapter of the book.

So as you can see all these characters are still alive, at least in some way with regards to Cat (thanks Bright Blue Eyes!). So I think Jon will still be alive when WoW begins. He may be in a coma for a while or something, like Bran, but he will still be alive.

1. While reading the books I have always thought that Jon is Azor Ahai reborn. The biggest piece of evidence that lead me to believe this is:

Melisandre’s thoughts in DwD– “I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.”

I just can’t ignore this or imagine that GRRM capitalized that S by mistake or to purposefully mislead us. He may give us vague and hard to interpret prophecies but this seems very deliberate to me.

I also think that Azor Ahai could possibly have been reborn as Jon already. We know he already lived once, right? So why would Jon need to die again in order for him to be Azor Ahai?

As AA it will be his destiny to lead the war against the Others. So I think he will remain LC and after everyone realizes the real threat of the Others and when they find out Jon is AA they will rally around him. There will of course be drama at the Wall after this attack on Jon, and I don’t know when he will realize he is AA.

I don’t think that R+L=J is necessary for Jon to be AA and I don’t remember seeing anything that said AA was a king, only a hero. I do think R+L=J is true though.

1. Even if R+L=J I don’t think that makes Jon an heir to the Iron Throne. That would still make him a Targaryen bastard and under the laws of the 7 Kingdoms he cannot be an heir. I don’t think Jon will inherit the IT by marrying Dany either because something that has always troubled me about Dany getting the Iron Thrown is that she cannot have an heir. And Jon is a bastard whether or not he is Ned’s son or Rhaegar’s so also could not have heirs. So where would the IT go next? Aegon is too new a character with possible twists to his background for me to want to speculate on him. But I think he may be real Aegon just because someone has to take over the IT.

I also don’t think Jon is heir to WF either just because Robb named him heir when he thought Bran and Rickon were dead. But both are alive. Not really sure how that would work with Robb’s will but I also don’t see Jon wanting WF once he knows they are alive. And if R+L=J is true then I don’t know what that does to the Jon as WF heir scenario.

GRRM has said that we will see Howland Reed in the series so that is how I think Jon will find out R+L=J. But I think his real destiny has more to do with becoming the hero AA and leading the war to destroy the Others.

1. I do think Jon will eventually warg into Ghost. I’m not sure how this will happen but I think all the Starks can warg their direwolfs and will eventually because they all have wolf dreams and that is how it started for Bran. I think Bran is the only one who will be able to warg other things though since he is a greenseer.

I believe Bran will bring the Starks back together but may use different ways to communicate with each Stark. If Jon does end up in a coma he may visit him via a dream, Rickon via a wierwood, etc.

I also think that Bran and BR have been watching everything via the ravens, weirwoods, etc. already and may even be able to spy on the Others this way. Everything Theon experienced at WF and then hearing a raven say his name while with Stannis is what leads me to believe this as well as Jon’s raven and everything it says and does.

Finally, Jon does not have the connection to the Varamyr Sixskins story, Bran does. Bran is a greenseer so he is also a skinchanger and a warg, right? So I think the Varamyr story exists for some Bran foreshadowing, though I’m not sure what yet.

1. Jon will ride a dragon! Really this one might be a stretch, but we have three living dragons, Dany’s vision of a man in CoK where he tells a woman with a baby "There must be one more… The dragon has three heads," and if R+L=J is true and Aegon is really Aegon, we have 3 Targaryen’s to match all this!!!

I also think a lot of the story has yet to be told to us so I don’t want to speculate any further. Everything I’ve said so far I really think will happen though. Now it’s time for me to go back to reading the whole series to see if I pick up on anything new and if I change my mind about any if this.

[Jane Parallel]

But, what if Jon's death is necessary to put the Wall on the move... I mean, the situation at the Wall is very delicate with all the wildings, the Night's Watch and Queen's men around. They need a little excuse to explode... Marsh and the others who attacked their Lord Commander in front of many people have just light the spark for a fire.

The wildings lead by Tormund will take the arms to fight the Night's Watch... Queen's men will take the leave to find Stannis... the Wall is not safe anymore... this is no good for the people of Westeros... if the Wall break out in war then it would be not so difficult for the Others to take advantage.

Many people think of Melisandre seeing Jon Snow when she asks for a glimpse of AA (or Stannis) that is a proof Jon Snow is that heroe... but she sees him in danger and changing... she has not seen more of that... Mel hasn´t seen something extraordinary to make her change her mind from Stannis to be Azor Ahai to Jon Snow...

What if R'hllor warned her of the danger Jon Snow was because his dead would open a breach for The Others... with a mutiny at the Wall it can turn weak... the Great Other would pass the Wall... and then the War we want to read would happen.

May be Jon Snow's dead is necessary for the Great War to occur. Some characters are more important for their dead than for their lives.

I love Jon Snow and I was so pissed off when I read his last chapter... I would like he to be alive but not at any cost. Just thinking.

[Steelborn]

Many people think of Melisandre seeing Jon Snow when she asks for a glimpse of AA (or Stannis) that is a proof Jon Snow is that heroe... but she sees him in danger and changing... she has not seen more of that... Mel hasn´t seen something extraordinary to make her change her mind from Stannis to be Azor Ahai to Jon Snow...

What if R'hllor warned her of the danger Jon Snow was because his dead would open a breach for The Others... with a mutiny at the Wall it can turn weak... the Great Other would pass the Wall... and then the War we want to read would happen.

I see that quote like "I want to see Stannis, but i can only see Snow" not like she's asking for R'hllor to show her who Azor Ahai is and then he shows Jon. "R'hllor" provided her visions of Jon because he was in real danger at the time and his death or the threat to him is important somehow.

I like the theory that the Night's Watch will end now that chaos has been planted and whatever The Others have been planning can start to play out now.

And about Jon's state, nah, he's clearly not dead. But, I just can't wait to see why this was important.

[sj4iy]

I see that quote like "I want to see Stannis, but i can only see Snow" not like she's asking for R'hllor to show her who Azor Ahai is and then he shows Jon. "R'hllor" provided her visions of Jon because he was in real danger at the time and his death or the threat to him is important somehow.

I like the theory that the Night's Watch will end now that chaos has been planted and whatever The Others have been planning can start to play out now.

And about Jon's state, nah, he's clearly not dead. But, I just can't wait to see why this was important.

No, she very clearly states:

Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

She is seeing R'hollor's king...R'hollor's instrument.

[GERM]

No, she very clearly states:

Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

She is seeing R'hollor's king...R'hollor's instrument.

You stole my reply.

[sabrecmc]

There was a line in GoT where Tyrion meets Jon on top of the Wall and Jon talks about his Uncle being missing. He says something like if Benjen doesn't come back then he and Ghost will go north and find him. I've always felt (well, after reading ADWD) that this means Jon, warged into Ghost, will go north and find Benjen. To what end, I don't know. But that would be a cool bit of foreshadowing.

[Anima]

It seems clear from a storytelling point of View that Jon isn't dead, and he cannot die (well permanently that is). But at the same time time GRRM has always tended to go against the traps of classic fantasy by putting in too much magic like : Poof! I'm back in the land of the living! or Haha! I got the invincible magic sword so you're finished! Right?

I honestly prefer to think that Jon is grievously but not mortally wounded. He'll be coming in and out of consciousness warging into Ghost.

I can imagine Melissandre playing a role by telling everyone that Jon died and hiding him with her glamours. She understands from her visions that he has a role to play. It's clear that quite often Melissandre misreads the flames although I remember she claim to be one of the best of her order at reading the flames which tells us a lot about the proficiency they have actually achieved in that skill.

At the beginning Melissandre is looking for THE WAY TO Azor Ahai and finds Stannis and that's exactly what he is I think, the way to, admitedly, Jon/AA. But I can't imagine Jon suddenly becoming some kind of super duper power fighter in the game. Even if he is prophecied to stop the Others he'll have a damned hard time of it and he'll lose more and more people along the way.

I'm still wondering if he will survive the Song or not (I think the Song of Ice and Fire is Medieval english for a song describing a tale of valor which were common in the Middle Age, a period who we all know GRRM is quite fond of).

Ther will be some turmoil at the Wall that's for sure. The Wildlings won't say it but they agreed to their "truce" with the NW because Jon was at their head and they knew that he understood them if only a little. So Jon's "death" means an end to the truce and a big fight at the Wall. Waht happens afterwards is anyone's guess but I don't imagine Jon will be going very far south, GRRM stated that we would see a lot more of the Others in TWOW and Jon has to stay close if he is to be present at the critical moment.

Really the biggest problem is Dany, we know she's coming but damn! Except for her and her dragons, the capacity of her entourage for travelling is quite limited. It will take months from what we've seen with Tyrion to get to Westeros, which implies god knows how many chapters. I'm really afraid that the whole length of TWOW the only thing we'll see is Dany slowly making her way to Westeros (with all the troubles she'll certainly have). And when she finally arrives! Damn wait five more years...

[The Reckoner]

Didn't that one Bran chapter with the alleged "Jojen paste" take place over the course of several months? George could just do something like that if need be.

[Lord of Nutella]

I tend to believe that he simply survived and he has interesting reams while he heals. But actually, there more i think about it , the less im sure what he is hoing zo fo in the mext book.

[Deornoth]

I posted this on another thread but can't find it... (and apologies if this has already been covered in this thread but I'm posting from work so can't go back and check)

I was wondering, if Jon Snow dies and if Melisandre brings him back to life what does this mean for him carrying on as a sworn brother of the Nights Watch? If Jon does die then surely 'his watch has ended' and he can't very well come back and have another go at being a sworn brother, or could he? If he can no longer be part of the Nights Watch then he's pretty much free to do whatever he wants although I could see him staying at the Wall.

Or he might really be dead and the first time we see him in TWOW could be where his body is burnt to stop him coming back (just imagine if, during the power struggle, they forgot to burn his corpse...)

[Jon Snow King of the North]

Don't know if anyone has said this one yet:

Jon is mortally wounded but doesn't die from his wounds ( come on, people in the book have been wounded much worse and lived ). He passes out and is taken by Mel so she can tend to his wounds. While in her care, they have a talk and she tells him his rest is needed but that doesn't mean he can't still go south to aid Stannis and kill the Boltons. He wargs into Ghost and does this, then returns to his body when he's more fit. By this time the Watch thinks he is dead and picks a new Lord Commander. Also, with them thinking him dead " his watch has ended ", so Stannis takes his Bastardness away and names him Stark...... The Northern Banners rally behind him and he names Stannis as the one true King by blood and by rite.

Or..........

The pissed off Giant is actually Bran warging into him, and he breaks Ghost free and saves Jon...... taking them south to join Stannis and/or to find Howlen Reed so he can learn who is father is and inform him about his kids.

[King Hodor IV]

I think I know what will happen. Remember what happened to Davos? He was miraculously okay and woke up on a rock in the ocean after being thrown into backwater and being knocked unconscious? He would have drowned at the least. Some people think Davos is a light bringer, that could be possible.

I think Jon will just survive the stabbing, only 2 stabs got him anyways. He has survived from worse (getting shot with the arrows) and I think he will be saved by Wun Wun who is close by and just killed Ser Patrek.

[Snow wolf]

I always respond to Jon speculation threads - I never get tired of it. I also really think Martin is a brilliant organizer, and AGoT IS Martin's "game plan" for the series.

On rereads, the elements of foreshadowing, and "preplanning" in regards to Martin's craft, are pure genius - and in some cases, sassy Martin-like gags. For instance, Bran recalls Theon jesting about Hodor only being able to say "HODOR". Karma's a bitch: Theon says, paraphrase 'He sure knows his own name - no one can doubt that." This foreshadows Theon learning his new name: "Reek", and it brings to mind Theon trying to get Jeyne Poole to remember HER name: Arya.

Also, when Theon inspects Jon's white direwolf, he says, "A freak", which, ironically, rhymes with Reek.

Bran associates "faces" with masks that can be removed and returned: Bran says Ned takes off Father's face to don the face of Lord Stark of WF. Oh - these are but a few of many examples in each POV.

With that said, Martin is a masterful storyteller who is not going to jeopardize such a well-crafted "song" with bizarre, unfamiliar, unlikely events occurring. I, personally, have been waiting for Jon to warg Ghost. I would be disappointed if Martin does not include a Ghost POV. I enjoy when Martin writes from Summer's POV in Bran's narratives, so I am sure Martin will not disappoint readers who, I think, expect this to happen - and have been lead to "believe" this will happen. Actually, I think Jon's "caesaring" has been Jon's fate from the beginning - hints lurk in AGoT.

Jon's "fate" will be one of several ways Martin will reveal Bran's powers - I think Bran's primary goal will be to bring the litter together - in a magical way that only Martin can write with flare.

Dont you think the wall will be a problem?

I believe Jon wargs Ghost - I believe he does so in his final POV in ADwD. This progression for Jon is logical, and now Jon will follow the paths taken by Bran and Arya: warg with direwolf.

Because Bran is the most powerful greenseer in the history of the weirwood trees, he will be able to smooth Jon's transition into his wolf.

I imagine there will be a little conflict between Jon and his wolf instinct - but I also think that Mormont's raven has been mentioned quite frequently in Jon's POV. When Ghost flees the armory through the raven's window, he will land in drifted snow against the building. Mormont's raven and Ghost will be together -and the raven "may be" skinchanged by BR - I think Bran will be able to access Jon through Ghost, who is like white bark made wolf flesh - a physical, symbolic representation of a weirwood.

Martin may have Ghost come upon Jon Snow's body, and Ghost may protect Jon until a friend moves Jon from the scene. However, I think it more likely that Bran will make his presence known to the readers if none of the characters, just as Bran appears in "The Prince of Winterfell" from ADwD as the face in the weirwood, the murder of ravens, the engulfing grey mists, in the wind in the leaves, and in the stone foundation of WF itself.

I also think that Jon and Ghost are ONE - and they are the OLD GODS of the North. It is unlikely that Bran will allow another to heal his brother. I still remember Jon kissing Bran's lips before Jon left WF for the Wall. Martin fully establishes Bran's high regard and deep affection for his bastard brother Jon.

Jon will not need to travel to the Cave of Skulls. Through Ghost, Bran will visit his dreams - maybe Ghost and the raven will go to the grove of nine weirwoods where Jon took his NW vows. I think this will be a symbolic location.

I even wonder if Bran has not somehow witnessed Jon's fall - and if so, what is the scope and potential of his magic powers? How will Bran execute justice? - and what type of earth magic will be able to access?

Dont you think the wall will be a problem?

[Talking Hodor]

We know of three ways to defeat death in ASoIaF- Blood magic, the Kiss of Life, and Qyburn's necromancy. If Jon truly is 'Azor Azai', he's not going to get the same resurrection treatment that a minor character like Beric Dondarrion got.

Way #4: "Die" off camera and then be found to be quite alive and kicking later on once a more reliable account of the event is revealed.

Way#5: Always wear your plot armor. Jon's too important to everything to die just yet. If he does die, it'll be much later. My money's on him slipping off of a weeping wall in the middle of summer, decades after the Other's have been pushed back to their Fortress of Solitude; or perhaps he'll slip while climbing the Iron Throne and impale himself on the armrest, decades after reuniting Westeros.

[The Reckoner]

Dany need not take long to get to Westeros. A chapter in the Dothraki Sea, a chapter returning to Meereen and then a chapter where she stops in Volantis or wherever and final a chapter where she sets sail for Westeros.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

What about what we see in the Theon sample chapter?

Theon being a blood sacrifice to the old gods, manipulated by Bloodraven and Bran. They bring Jon back, not Melisandre

[Segeeth]

Dany need not take long to get to Westeros. A chapter in the Dothraki Sea, a chapter returning to Meereen and then a chapter where she stops in Volantis or wherever and final a chapter where she sets sail for Westeros.

Are you kidding me? Why not one chapter then? Few pages Meeren, few for the road adn finally Westeros.