Aegon is real v2

[finger]

Keep drinking that Arbor Gold and believing the lie about Aegon being Rhaegar's son. That is all I came here to say.

Aegon is Rhaegar's son. By Elia Martell. You'll get to know him, If GRRM deems fit to issue some new godam book.

[Chatty Duelist]

Keep drinking that Arbor Gold and believing the lie about Aegon being Rhaegar's son. That is all I came here to say.

It's you who's saying it's a lie. Has GRRM confirmed that ®Aegon is a Blackfyre? Or some nobody? And how can he be a Blackfyre when the Blackfyres have been dead for 40 years? Reeks of gigantic illogic.

Also, i never drink alcohol. Never.

Mummer's dragon is Dany's description of a cloth dragon on a pole. A fake dragon. Not a real dragon led by a mummer.

A fake dragon, which could be anyone that claims to be a dragon, up and including Daenerys, Viserys Etc.

ETA: ®Aegon looks a lot better than (F)Aegon.

[Ygrain]

It's you who's saying it's a lie. Has GRRM confirmed that ®Aegon is a Blackfyre? Or some nobody? And how can he be a Blackfyre when the Blackfyres have been dead for 40 years? Reeks of gigantic illogic.

Also, i never drink alcohol. Never.

A fake dragon, which could be anyone that claims to be a dragon, up and including Daenerys, Viserys Etc.

ETA: ®Aegon looks a lot better than (F)Aegon.

Then perhaps you might start :D

Once again: the Blackfyres are dead in the male line - the same as Targaryens are officialy dead in male line, as well, but through Dany, survive in female line.

Dragons in visions have repeatedly been shown as persons of Targaryen descent. Not really sure what you mean here.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Uh no, Mummer's dragon = Dragon that belongs to a mummer, it's not rocket science

Mummer's dragon is a mummer dragon.Easy.

What? They're a cadet line, they're the exact same dynasty with a different name and sigil, it's not rocket science.

So, Karstarks are Starks, Jordaynes are Daynes etc.

So what? You're going to bash me because i used a source you don't like? It's not rocket science to recognize a double standard.

No. I am saying that is funny to refer to a source that people create and not the author. When I refer to author's work.

And Varys. And Tyrion. It's not rocket science to read the books.

When Varys said that Aegon was Rhaegar's? Please give me that quote.

Also did you seriouly said Tyrion? Seriously? Someone who didn't knew anything and had never see the prince when he was alive?

Is Bittersteel alive? No. He's dead, and Bittersteel isn't the leader of the GC. The commander of the GC in AFfC is the far more pragmatic Harry Strickland. It's not rocket science to inform yourself.

And how do you go from "Lots of people with Targ blood" with "Lots of people are Dragons"? That's like saying a cat is black because his distant cousin thrice removed is.

:bs: GC was created by Bittersteel and beneath their coins is the bitter steel. It's not nuclear physics to understand that what they mean is that they honor their first mission. To gain the thrones for the Blackfyres because you know, they never fought for the Targs only for the Blackfyres.

Oddly childish how you use smiley's to empathize your point. And no, the Baratheons are related by the female line, it's not rocket science to know dynastic succession laws and genetics.

So the Baratheons, or the sun, or the seahorse doesn't have Targs blood because they come from a female? Oddly enough, I thought that the women have the same kind of blood as the men. Or they don't?

Keep drinking that Arbor Gold and believing the lie about Aegon being Rhaegar's son. That is all I came here to say.

:rofl: :agree:

[Iona]

:bs: GC was created by Bittersteel and beneath their coins is the bitter steel. It's not nuclear physics to understand that what they mean is that they honor their first mission. To gain the thrones for the Blackfyres because you know, they never fought for the Targs only for the Blackfyres.

If you wish to insult people and then be all high-and-mighty on how you only refer to what the author says, then at least have the decency to get it right...

That's all I came to say. For now.

[Chatty Duelist]

Mummer's dragon is a Dragon owned by a mummer.

FTFY

So, Karstarks are Starks, Jordaynes are Daynes etc.

As much as the Bourbons and Valois are Capets.

No. I am saying that is funny to refer to a source that people create and not the author. When I refer to author's work.

It's funny that said source that people create refers solely to the author's work.

When Varys said that Aegon was Rhaegar's? Please give me that quote.

“I thought the crossbow fitting. You shared so much with Lord Tywin, why not that? Your niece will think the Tyrells had you murdered, mayhaps with the connivance of the Imp. The Tyrells will suspect her. Someone somewhere will find a way to blame the Dornishmen. Doubt, division, and mistrust will eat the very ground beneath your boy king, whilst Aegon raises his banner above Storm’s End and the lords of the realm gather round him.”

“Aegon?” For a moment he did not understand. Then he remembered. A babe swaddled in a crimson cloak, the cloth stained with his blood and brains. “Dead. He’s dead.”

“No.” The eunuch’s voice seemed deeper. “He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.”

Also did you seriouly said Tyrion? Seriously? Someone who didn't knew anything and had never see the prince when he was alive?

Yeah i did. U mad? And of people that saw the P Aegon's corpse. Tywin and Kevan themselves doubted the corpse was the ®Aegon.

:bs: GC was created by Bittersteel and beneath their coins is the bitter steel. It's not nuclear physics to understand that what they mean is that they honor their first mission. To gain the thrones for the Blackfyres because you know, they never fought for the Targs only for the Blackfyres.

Except in this case there no Blackfyres to fight for. It's not Neurology to understand that.

"Black or Red a Dragon is still a Dragon."

So the Baratheons, or the sun, or the seahorse doesn't have Targs blood because they come from a female? Oddly enough, I thought that the women have the same kind of blood as the men. Or they don't?

Weren't you the one insinuating they weren't dragons because they're descended from the Targs?

[thetitansbastard]

hmmm...v2 nice. I just don't comprehend the effort being put into these arguments when the matter is irrelevant and will not be confirmed either way. Unless the Huge Blackfyre-Comeback-Led-by-Aegon-out-of-Left-field actually comes to roost at which point I suppose I would say its extremely unlikely that Rhaegar and Elia are Aegon's parents. Until then, its possible he is real and we will never know for sure either way.

eta Not out to bash Blackfyre believers, your opinion is valued. I personally would be shocked very surprised if it goes that way.

[Kienn]

If Aegon is real, Dany is fake. You should try to prove this using her dreams of the red door or something.

[Chatty Duelist]

If Aegon is real, Dany is fake. You should try to prove this using her dreams of the red door or something.

How did you get to that conclusion? And of what use are the red doors?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

FTFY

It didn't need fixing.

As much as the Bourbons and Valois are Capets.

Starks=Starks, Karstarks have Starks' blood but they are not Starks. They are not the same house. They may come from them but they are not the same.

It's funny that said source that people create refers solely to the author's work.

Wiki is not always right.

“I thought the crossbow fitting. You shared so much with Lord Tywin, why not that? Your niece will think the Tyrells had you murdered, mayhaps with the connivance of the Imp. The Tyrells will suspect her. Someone somewhere will find a way to blame the Dornishmen. Doubt, division, and mistrust will eat the very ground beneath your boy king, whilst Aegon raises his banner above Storm’s End and the lords of the realm gather round him.”

“Aegon?” For a moment he did not understand. Then he remembered. A babe swaddled in a crimson cloak, the cloth stained with his blood and brains. “Dead. He’s dead.”

“No.” The eunuch’s voice seemed deeper. “He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.”

And where it is stated that he is Rhaegar's?

Yeah i did. U mad? And of people that saw the P Aegon's corpse. Tywin and Kevan themselves doubted the corpse was the ®Aegon.

Seriously now. How could Tyrion know the truth?

Except in this case there no Blackfyres to fight for. It's not Neurology to understand that.

"Black or Red a Dragon is still a Dragon."

There is the female line of the Blackfyres or you missed Illyrio's word's that only the male line is dead?

Weren't you the one insinuating they weren't dragons because they're descended from the Targs?

What I am saying is that the Baratheons, the Martells and the Velaryon (at least) have Targs blood but that doesn't make them dragons. Just like the Blackfyres, once they had Targs blood but not anymore.

If you wish to insult people and then be all high-and-mighty on how you only refer to what the author says, then at least have the decency to get it right...

That's all I came to say. For now.

I don't see how I insulted someone.

[Lord of Dragonstone]

No, it doesn't. It has, as I said in my first post, pure conjecture in response to the evidence and arguments of the Blackfyre theory. It's reactive, negative conjecture, not evidence.

The "evidence" is that Varys said he's Aegon to a man he was about to kill and had no reason to lie.

The only "evidence" that he's a Blackfyre would be if it were actually impossible for Varys' story to be true. Which doesn't seem to be the case. Vague prophecies or signs make for interesting conjecture, but are far from definitive proof that Aegon is fake. It's possible - but not inevitable.

[Chatty Duelist]

It didn't need fixing.

It needed fixing considering it was broke.

Starks=Starks, Karstarks have Starks' blood but they are not Starks. They are not the same house. They may come from them but they are not the same.

Conveniently ignoring what i've been trying to hammer into your head for the last 3 pages. And my historical examples (Bourbons are Capets, just a cadet line.)

Wiki is not always right.

It is when it's verifiable.

And where it is stated that he is Rhaegar's?

Everywhere you didn't look.

Seriously now. How could Tyrion know the truth?

Because you've ignored what i told you. The corpse wasn't Aegon, didn't look like Aegon, and Tywin and Kevan knew it but didn't tell King That-never-read-a-book. And they conveniently hid the corpse in a crimson cloak.

There is the female line of the Blackfyres or you missed Illyrio's word's that only the male line is dead?

We have no idea who the female lineists are.

What I am saying is that the Baratheons, the Martells and the Velaryon (at least) have Targs blood but that doesn't make them dragons. Just like the Blackfyres, once they had Targs blood but not anymore.

So the Baratheons, Martells and Velaryons have Targ blood, but the Blackfyres don't? What? Make your mind.

I don't see how I insulted someone.

[Ygrain]

We have no idea who the female lineists are.

And? That doesn't make them nonexistent.

[Iona]

I don't see how I insulted someone.

I can see that. Your style of stating things is blunt, as I said earlier, and with this v.2. thread it's escalating into being condecending as well. I'm saddened to see that the OP got sucked into your whirlwind as well, but I guess that was only a matter of time.

[Chatty Duelist]

And? That doesn't make them nonexistent.

We don't know who they are. So how can you conveniently claim that Varys/His sister/Illyrio/Anyone else are Blackfyres through the female line when we have no idea who their parents were.

[TyrionsFlagon]

Yeah everything at this point is basically conjecture, I just find it hard to believe that we'd be given all this information about Blackfyres if it didn't serve some fairly major purpose in the plot.

We get a lot of information about food. Sometimes it's important (honeyed locusts, Bran's dream about Freys and Maester Luwen). Sometimes, it means nothing

[Thendel]

OP, perhaps you should tone it down a bit. If you want people to engage in your discussion, being polite when you reply gets people to stay in the discussion.

Perhaps we should bring up the actual quotes about the mummer's dragon:

The House of the Undying, ACoK: "A cloth dragon swayed on a pole amidst a cheering crowd."

Quaithe, ADwD: "Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

Used in combination, it is quite clear that the mummer's dragon is a fake one: Why else would it be presented as a cloth dragon, and not a real dragon?

As for Varys stating Aegon is Rhaegar's: That is not true, as he never states that explicitly. If you want to argue that it was implied, I recommend you read this thread first.

[Chatty Duelist]

We get a lot of information about food. Sometimes it's important (honeyed locusts, Bran's dream about Freys and Maester Luwen). Sometimes, it means nothing

I find this a remarkably witty answer for such a mundane subject.

The House of the Undying, ACoK: "A cloth dragon swayed on a pole amidst a cheering crowd."

The KL play in AFfC. The play involves a cloth dragon with the crowd cheering because they loved the play. Sometimes prophecies are more mundane that people believe. I could totally right now say that i'll be standing over a table of the slain. And the next day i'd be standing over a table with breakfast on it. The slain being the bacon.

Quaithe, ADwD: "Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

Kraken = Greyjoys, Dark flame? Have no idea. Lion = Lannisters, Griffin = Griff (JonCon), the Sun's Son = Quentyn Martell, the Mummer's Dragon = Varys and ® Aegon (Could mean simply that ®Aegon is Varys's puppet; see above mundane prophecy.)

Used in combination, it is quite clear that the mummer's dragon is a fake one: Why else would it be presented as a cloth dragon, and not a real dragon?

Because dragons are in short supply.

As for Varys stating Aegon is Rhaegar's: That is not true, as he never states that explicitly. If you want to argue that it was implied, I recommend you read this thread first.

Whilst not outright stated. It is implied, when Kevan says "Aegon" he means Rhaegar's son, and so (probably) does Varys when replying to him.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

It needed fixing considering it was broke.

No it wasn't broken. Mummer's dragon is a dragon owned by a mummer, a fake dragon.

Conveniently ignoring what i've been trying to hammer into your head for the last 3 pages. And my historical examples (Bourbons are Capets, just a cadet line.)

Being a cadet branch doesn't make you a member of the main like. Karstarks aren't Starks, Jordaynes aren't Daynes, they are distand once relatives.

It is when it's verifiable.

Like? When you try to refer to a source you should refer either to the books or SSM. Blackfyres are a cadet branch but that doesn't make them Targaryens. They are two different families.

Everywhere you didn't look.

No, sorry. Varys' doesn't say that Aegon's is Rhaegar's in the quote that you have provided. Or if I missed it, give me the quote where Varys says "Aegon is Rhaegar's son".

Because you've ignored what i told you. The corpse wasn't Aegon, didn't look like Aegon, and Tywin and Kevan knew it but didn't tell King That-never-read-a-book.

It didn't looked like Aegon? Says who? We know that the baby who died had Varyrian colors but it was never stated that he didn't looked like Aegon. How could that be known since the corpse was beyond recognition.

And if you want to bring Tyrion, who had no idea how the real prince looked like, you should also have to mention that Tyrion says that FAegon looks younger, I think he says that he looks 16, that the real Aegon would be.

We have no idea who the female lineists are.

And that means that they don't exist?

So the Baratheons, Martells and Velaryons have Targ blood, but the Blackfyres don't? What? Make your mind.

Once again, having someones blood doesn't make you the same. Blackfyres had Targs blood 150 years ago, like the Martells but Baratheon have Targs blood about 50-60 years ago. They have the blood, yes, but they aren't Targs.

Still, I don't see how I insulted someone.

[FC_Lymond]

I just think you have to go back ~10 years when Aegon reappears at age 4. There's a big difference in the plausibility of the theories if you go back to that point. What was Illyrio doing at that point.

1) they have the real Aegon and hire JonCon to tutor his squire's son

2) they have a random Blackfyre, who they know can pass for Rhaegar's son in 10 years, and begin raising him as a Targ with a lifelong Targ supporter as tutor.

3) Illyrio's son is a Blackfyre. So he gives up his only son, to make a charade about him being the Targ heir to the IT. And who can pass for being Rhaegar's son. And who is given a lifelong Targ supporter as tutor.

4) they just start raising a kid pretending he is Rhaegar's son. Hoping he will look like Rhaegar in 10 years.

2 and 3 make so little sense. But they have to be the case for the Blackfyre theory to be true. 4 is pretty out there, because they can't predict the state of the IT 10 years in the future.

Back to present day: if the GC are supporting Aegon because he is a Blackfyre, how in the world can they keep that a secret from him and JonCon? It's already been months.

"Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

I still don't get why everyone assigns "griffin" as JonCon and not Aegon. Why would JonCon deserve to be so important as to warrant inclusion in the prophecy? He's a nobody basically.

and finally, saving Aegon in KL doesn't depend on them not identifying the body. Even a few hours confusion would be enough. And as I have said before, they (Bob, Ned, and the Lannisters) would not want to admit they let Aegon escape them at that point.