Facebookless Man Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 ah, screw it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 And? We are not done with the story yet, and there is one huge piece of information missing - what vested interest Varys and Illyrio have in Westeros and why is Illyrio so fawning over a son of Rhaegar and Elia. The opportunity to rule Westeros through a puppet King. That doesn't explain Illyrio's emotional engagement (and the only other moment when we see him showing emotional attechment is when talking about his dead wife) - and, BTW, for this plan to come true, it doesn't require Aegon to be the real deal in the least. Actually, a fake Aegon would be even more convenient - that would give them leverage should the puppet try to cut the strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted December 20, 2013 Author Share Posted December 20, 2013 ah, screw it Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand he's gone. That doesn't explain Illyrio's emotional engagement (and the only other moment when we see him showing emotional attechment is when talking about his dead wife) - and, BTW, for this plan to come true, it doesn't require Aegon to be the real deal in the least. Actually, a fake Aegon would be even more convenient - that would give them leverage should the puppet try to cut the strings. Oh he loved his wife, how surprising, and he took care of his adopted son, how wonderful, Illyrio should be King! He's got so much compassion and love radiating from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Even in Asoaif prophecies and visions don't always come true, which I have pointed earlier in the the thread, otherwise Rhaego son of Drogo would have been mounting the asoiaf world as we speak. Plus, it's possible that prophecy could be interpreted wrongly. A prophecy is like a treacherous woman, after all. That is one incorrect prophecy compared to, as I pointed out here, the established accuracy of prophecies that occur adjacently to the ones used as evidence for fAegon being fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 BTW, SuperTechmarine, would you please start using the quotes correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 It's sad that my main reason for participating in those discussions is the attitude of the people on one side of the debate. Just a thought: if people count the mummer's dragon prophecy as evidence (pretty much the best evidence they have at that) that Aegon is fake, why doesn't Rhaegar's PtwP/dragon has three heads beliefs regarding Aegon count as evidence that he's real? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted December 20, 2013 Author Share Posted December 20, 2013 That is one incorrect prophecy compared to, as I pointed out here, the established accuracy of prophecies that occur adjacently to the ones used as evidence for fAegon being fake. Says prophecies and visions are conjecture Uses prophecies and visions as evidence. I'm kidding. The evidence was under our entire noses the whole time. Varys always changes his tone emotionally when telling the truth (When talking to Kevan, "I serve the realm", how he was cut.) BTW, SuperTechmarine, would you please start using the quotes correctly? Why yes, i wonder how do i use quotes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Varys always changes his tone emotionally when telling the truth Varys has never once told a lie in the entire series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted December 20, 2013 Author Share Posted December 20, 2013 Varys has never once told a lie in the entire series. The actual, full truth not ambiguously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Says prophecies and visions are conjecture Uses prophecies and visions as evidence. Feel free to quote me calling prophecies and visions conjecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted December 20, 2013 Author Share Posted December 20, 2013 Feel free to quote me calling prophecies and visions conjecture. Oops, confused with someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess_of_Sunspear Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Sorry, that just doesn't cut it when we have several firm examples of prophecy and visions coming true. In fact there are visions from the House of the Undying itself that we know came to pass. Most of the referents in Quaithe's warning are easily discernible, so we know we can glean firm meaning from that too. The idea that prophecy has no predictive value in ASoIaF is silly.What is the explanation to the four dwarves? The copper skinned warrior with silver hair? Not all prophesies and visions come true, and it's silly to base a theory based entirely on a single interpretation of a prophecy, because that is exactly what people are doing here. It's like Cersei being adamant that Tyrion is the valonqar- yes, he's the best candidate we have, but that doesn't mean that he is until we read a book where he strangles Cersei.Quaithe's warnings could also be interpreted in many different ways- she could be warning Daenerys that they all want to use her and her dragons. Which is true for Quentyn, and would be true for Aegon, whether he is a genuine Targaryen being manipulated by Varys (the dragon that is controlled by a mummer) or a secret Blackfyre/Illyrios son/random Lyseni child/all of the above (mummer dragon as in fake dragon). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess_of_Sunspear Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 It's sad that my main reason for participating in those discussions is the attitude of the people on one side of the debate. Just a thought: if people count the mummer's dragon prophecy as evidence (pretty much the best evidence they have at that) that Aegon is fake, why doesn't Rhaegar's PtwP/dragon has three heads beliefs regarding Aegon count as evidence that he's real?That too. The dragon must have three heads, it is known, so Aegon is real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Just a thought: if people count the mummer's dragon prophecy as evidence (pretty much the best evidence they have at that) that Aegon is fake, why doesn't Rhaegar's PtwP/dragon has three heads beliefs regarding Aegon count as evidence that he's real? Do we have the actual text of the prophecy anywhere? Or even better, do we have a first person PoV description of the vision, like we do with the HotU scene? Why yes, i wonder how do i use quotes? Writing your replies under the heading of the person you reply to causes problems with quoting you. (the dragon that is controlled by a mummer) or a secret Blackfyre/Illyrios son/random Lyseni child/all of the above (mummer dragon as in fake dragon). A cloth dragon on a pole is not a real dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 What is the explanation to the four dwarves? The four dwarves and a beautiful woman are actually Westeros and his 4 Kings - Stannis, Joffrey, Robb and Balon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted December 20, 2013 Author Share Posted December 20, 2013 Do we have the actual text of the prophecy anywhere? Or even better, do we have a first person PoV description of the vision, like we do with the HotU scene? A cloth dragon on a pole is not a real dragon. "He is the prince that was promised and his is the song of ice and fire." "He is lord's chosen, born amids salt and smoke (he's a ham)." "He shall pull Lightbringer from the fire." A cloth dragon on a pole is not a real dragon. Or is it? It could be a cloth hiding the dragon underneath (The Pisswater Prince). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Fevre Dream Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 What is the explanation to the four dwarves? The copper skinned warrior with silver hair? Not all prophesies and visions come true, and it's silly to base a theory based entirely on a single interpretation of a prophecy, because that is exactly what people are doing here. It's like Cersei being adamant that Tyrion is the valonqar- yes, he's the best candidate we have, but that doesn't mean that he is until we read a book where he strangles Cersei.Quaithe's warnings could also be interpreted in many different ways- she could be warning Daenerys that they all want to use her and her dragons. Which is true for Quentyn, and would be true for Aegon, whether he is a genuine Targaryen being manipulated by Varys (the dragon that is controlled by a mummer) or a secret Blackfyre/Illyrios son/random Lyseni child/all of the above (mummer dragon as in fake dragon). The little dwarves in the HotU drive me crazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzy, what in the eff was that even supposed to be? Dwarf orgy? Oops, wrong door? Oops, this prophecy was intended for someone named Tyrion, or Penny, or Groat? That is a big whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat???????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Do we have the actual text of the prophecy anywhere? Or even better, do we have a first person PoV description of the vision, like we do with the HotU scene? Daenerys sees Rhaegar with elia and baby Aegon, the "dragon has three heads" thing is repeatedly said to her in direct relation to that. You choose to ignore that in favour of your interpretation of another much less clear-cut prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepooperthatwaspromised Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 I love this thread (aside from the moments of condescension and obstinance). Overall, it's been really edifying. In the interest of moving this thread along, and (somewhat) objectively determining the logical credibility and amount of evidence for each position posited, it might be helpful to compile a comprehensive list of all the evidence, foreshadowing and prophecies for each. I know I'm going to be missing a lot, but without having to go through both entire threads, I'm going to try to compile a list - please add/edit my missing/inaccurate info. If I'm not wrong, there are 3 possible outcomes: 1) Aegon is real2) (f)Ageon is a Blackfyre3) Aegon is (f)Aegon but not a Blackfyre Evidence that Aegon is real:- Varys' speech to Kevin- Varys' knowledge of the Wildfire plot- the question of whether Aegon's corpse was suspicious to Tywin & Kevan- Tryion's observations- Aegon's character traits- JonCon's beliefswhat else? Evidence that (f)Aegon is a Blackfyre:- HoTU vison/ Cloth Dragon- Quaithe's prophecy/Mummer's Dragon- Rusted red sign revealing Black dragon- Aegon's age as questioned by Tyrion- Vary's unreliability- The Golden Company's allegiancewhat else? Evidence that (f)Aegon is fake but NOT a Blackfyre- HoTU vison/ Cloth Dragon- Quaithe's prophecy/Mummer's Dragon- Aegon's age as questioned by Tyrion- Vary's unreliabilitywhat else? I know I'm missing a lot, but like I said, once it's better filled in I think it'll help for doing side-by-side analysis for ALL the points at once, rather than a couple at a time. And please, I think this an awesome debate, so can we try to be nice? :) :) ETA: and once people fill in the blanks, I'm happy to re-post the full list neatly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted December 20, 2013 Author Share Posted December 20, 2013 The four dwarves and a beautiful woman are actually Westeros and his 4 Kings - Stannis, Joffrey, Robb and Balon How did you come to that conclusion? I love this thread (aside from the moments of condescension and obstinance). Overall, it's been really edifying. In the interest of moving this thread along, and (somewhat) objectively determining the logical credibility and amount of evidence for each position posited, it might be helpful to compile a comprehensive list of all the evidence, foreshadowing and prophecies for each. I know I'm going to be missing a lot, but without having to go through both entire threads, I'm going to try to compile a list - please add/edit my missing/inaccurate info. If I'm not wrong, there are 3 possible outcomes: 1) Aegon is real 2) (f)Ageon is a Blackfyre 3) Aegon is (f)Aegon but not a Blackfyre Evidence that Aegon is real: - Varys' speech to Kevin - the question of whether Aegon's corpse was suspicious - Tryion's observations - Aegon's character traits - JonCon's beliefs what else? Evidence that (f)Aegon is a Blackfyre: - HoTU vison/ Cloth Dragon - Quaithe's prophecy/Mummer's Dragon - Rusted red sign revealing Black dragon - Aegon's age as questioned by Tyrion - Vary's unreliability - The Golden Company's allegiance what else? Evidence that (f)Aegon is fake but NOT a Blackfyre - HoTU vison/ Cloth Dragon - Quaithe's prophecy/Mummer's Dragon - Aegon's age as questioned by Tyrion - Vary's unreliability what else? I know I'm missing a lot, but like I said, once it's better filled in I think it'll help for doing side-by-side analysis for ALL the points at once, rather than a couple at a time. And please, I think this an awesome debate, so can we try to be nice? :) :) - HoTU vison/ Cloth Dragon Varying interpretations point in completely unrelated directions. - Quaithe's prophecy/Mummer's Dragon A Dragon commanded by a Mummer, nothing to do with the Dragon's legitimacy. - Rusted red sign revealing Black dragon Varying interpretation point in completely unrelated directions. - Aegon's age as questioned by Tyrion Tyrion is not psychic, he can't just go and tell people's exact ages. - Vary's unreliability He changes his tone whenever he tells the unambiguous truth. The Kevan Speech. How i was Cut. I serve the realm (Aegon being the personification of the realm.) - The Golden Company's allegiance "Black or Red a Dragon is still a Dragon." With no remaining Blackfyres, the GC could have simply tired from this pointless charade and simply decided to go home under a Dragon, Red or Black. And thank you TPWP, you'll get us out of this trench warfare yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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