Did Elia Cheat on Rhaegar?

[Fool of a Book]

Evidence or the amount of such has nothing to do with something being a fanfic or not. I've read good fanfics whose arguments are supported by canon evidence in the book and make sense.

So, R+L is fanfic in your book. In other words, your definition is more broad?

Do you consider Elia+Arthur fanfic then?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

So, R+L is fanfic in your book. In other words, your definition is more broad?

Do you consider Elia+Arthur fanfic then?

R+L is not a fanfic, but I could write a ff about R+L.

R+L is a good theory with strong arguments but that doesn't make it true. A lot of theories around here have strong arguments but that doesn't mean they will end up being true either. I'm sure somewhere there are some theories with few or weak evidence that will end up being the real thing at the end as well. Again, evidence has nothing to do with something being a fanfic, it's all speculation.

My definition of fanfic isn't broader, but I think you're definition of what a fanfic is it's not completely accurate.

[Fool of a Book]

R+L is not a fanfic, but I could write a ff about R+L.

R+L is a good theory with strong arguments but that doesn't make it true. A lot of theories around here have strong arguments but that doesn't mean they will end up being true either. I'm sure somewhere there are some theories with few or weak evidence that will end up being the real thing at the end as well. Again, evidence has nothing to do with something being a fanfic, it's all speculation.

My definition of fanfic isn't broader, but I think you're definition of what a fanfic is it's not completely accurate.

But the topic is Elia+Arthur or someone else of her choosing, so maybe you can answer based on the OP?

[Fire Eater]

According to your definition, which you just posted, your OP fits the definition of fanfic.

And of course I disagree. Ulmer might have accosted Elia, or it may be a boast. Arthur is.. cool and everyone likes him. Elia is Dornish. Therefore Elia had an affair with Arthur. Really? Honestly, I've seen much better theories from you.

Actually, no as the OP doesn't count as fanfic anymore than the theory that HR married Ashara Dayne, or Gerion is the corsair king mentioned in ASoS and AFfC. It is a theory regarding the past in the series, not an independent work. Theories can be disproven and argued while fanfiction is not meant to be argued or disproven. Theories like this are meant to be serious regarding the main series while fanfiction is hardly serious.

Also, could everyone please stop bringing up the straw man that Elia being Dornish counts as evidence. Nowhere in this thread did I say that.

Better theories? Well, I guess you re entitled to your opinion. Also, I am not a theory.

[Fool of a Book]

Actually, no as the OP doesn't count as fanfic anymore than the theory that HR married Ashara Dayne, or Gerion is the corsair king mentioned in ASoS and AFfC. It is a theory regarding the past in the series, not an independent work. Theories can be disproven and argued while fanfiction is not meant to be argued or disproven. Theories like this are meant to be serious regarding the main series while fanfiction is hardly serious.

Also, could everyone please stop bringing up the straw man that Elia being Dornish counts as evidence. Nowhere in this thread did I say that.

Better theories? Well, I guess you re entitled to your opinion. Also, I am not a theory.

Ulmer, an extremly minor character with absolutely no evidence of credibility, made a creepy comment about Elia (*whoops, supposedly about Elia), ergo Elia had an affair with Arthur, or someone else. Alright.

ETA I actually tend to believe Ulmer's stories over your theory in the OP

[Fire Eater]

Ulmer, an extremly minor character with absolutely no evidence of credibility, made a creepy comment about Elia (*whoops, supposedly about Elia), ergo Elia had an affair with Arthur, or someone else. Alright.

ETA I actually tend to believe Ulmer's stories over your theory in the OP

I think you misconstrue it. It is not based solely on Ulmer's comment. There are also possible parallels with Aegon I and his two wives. No one in GRRM's world is presented as perfect IMO. I think that is a point he is getting across.

Here is the post I was talking about courtesy of Lady Gwynhyfvar:

Arthur Dayne: Sir Lancelot

At first glance, who better to fulfill the role of First Knight than Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning, almost universally reckoned to be the finest knight who ever lived? Wikipedia cites this scholarly description of Lancelot:

Quote

Raabe, Pamela (1987) Chretien’s Lancelot and the Sublimity of Adultery. Toronto Quarterly. 57:259-270

Compare with:

Quote

Eddard Stark to Bran Stark, ACoK, ch.21

Quote

Jaime Lannister to Loras Tyrell, ASoS, Ch.67

Another detail about Lancelot: His castle and the location of his final resting place? Joyous Gard. Formerly called Dolorous Gard, the name was changed to Joyous Gard after Arthur and Gwenhyfar visit as his guests. If it were a tower, it might well be called… the Tower of Joy.

In Chretien de Troyes tale “The Knight of the Cart” which introduced the Lancelot-Gwenhyfar affair to the medieval world, Lancelot rescues Gwenhyfar, who has been abducted by Melwas (Meleagant) His quest portrays the struggles to balance his role as King Arthur’s warrior within the framework of courtly love and his affair with Gwenhyfar. In order to reach her to effect the rescue, he must travel in a cart which the audience understands to be a mode of transport usually reserved for criminals. This foreshadows the consummation of the affair, which occurs after the rescue. Essentially, Lancelot breaks his contract with his king and becomes a criminal or social outcast through his actions. Critically, his role as the King’s First Knight does not change, but has been sullied. There is a possible parallel here with Arthur Dayne and Elia Martell. If Arthur has broken his vows and betrayed his King/Prince we may have a compelling reason for him to become involved in the murky affair of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark.

So now we have Rhaegar as Arthur married to Elia as Gwenhyfar. By all accounts, R+E (like A+G) had a marriage of mutual respect and fondness, if not passion. Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning and “bravest of knights” is Lancelot, King Arthur’s First Knight who before he learned his true name was known only as “The White Knight.” Here’s where it gets sticky. If there was a relationship between Arthur and Elia, then we would have a compelling reason for Rhaegar to set Elia aside and pave the way for R+L. Can we find anything in the text to support this? And how does Lyanna Stark fit in?

More on that to come.

[Visenya the Dragon]

Is it a possibility? Yes. Is there any kind of solid in-story hint? None at all. I mean, with that kind of evidence we might as well start claiming that Sam and Jeor Mormont had torrid nights together starting from the day Ser Piggy arrived at the Wall.

It just seems irrelevant anyhow. What does it change if Elia slept with Dayne or Aerys or Moon Boy? We know a bit more about a character that's been dead for decades, probably via contrived means (Bran is basically the only one who can find it out, via the Weirnet). Yay

To echo what others have said, I'm also not very comfortable with the implications 1) that since Arianne sleeps around a bit, all Dornish women therefore must too and 2) that it seems an attempt to absolve Ray-Man of putting Lyanna above everything else beause, see, Elia did it too!

I think you should look up Dorne on ASOIAF WIKI that will help you learn more about Dorne and their customs. If you don't like what I said , then you are in for a surprise.

To think Dorne

[Visenya the Dragon]

Darkstar is of a cadet branch of dayne.

He is the lord of the cadet branch. Who also wants war with the lannisters. Why would Doran call him the most dangerous man in Dorne. All the clues are there. I THINK you may just choose to over look them.

[Wmarshal]

He is the lord of the cadet branch. Who also wants war with the lannisters. Why would Doran call him the most dangerous man in Dorne. All the clues are there. I THINK you may just choose to over look them.

What clues? Everyone in Dorne wants war with the Lannisters are they all Arthur's bastards? Why would he given a castle? He is dangerous because of skilled with blade he is and how cruel he could be.

[MyLittleFinger]

Rhaegar the Whitewashed, justified for life.

[DrunkSister]

Again I hate to repeat myself, but this theory is not to justify Rhaegar's actions. Why do you keep insisting that as I have repeatedly told that I didn't? I have told you many times, and you keep bringing up that straw man.

Because victims have to be perfectly pure in order to be considered victims, if they are not, all sympathy is withheld. Unless Elia was perfect, she deserved everything from her husband eloping with another girl, to horrible murder and having her kids killed. That is also why as soon as you suggest that she could have had a more Dornish attitude towards extramarital affairs people say you are calling her a slut, even though you are not. How dare she sleep around when she is in a cold, arranged marriage!

That said, I am not convinced about this theory at all.

There is no solid proof that Naerys had an affair, so saying that her affair is proof that Elia had one is skipping a few steps to say the least. Same with Rhaenys. Her uncle having a paramour hardly proves that she did etc.

So this boils down to: some other people have possibly had affairs, so she did + her uncle had a lover, so she did + her brother is promiscuous, so she is.

As for Artur Dayne, there is literally no evidence to point to him, so you are on a very thin ice with your meta-reading.

Well anyway, Arthur Dayne had the right colouring for his kids to pass as Targs.

Aegon is Real! But he is Arthur Dayne's son! lolololol

[Anath]

Because victims have to be perfectly pure in order to be considered victims, if they are not, all sympathy is withheld. Unless Elia was perfect, she deserved everything from her husband eloping with another girl, to horrible murder and having her kids killed. That is also why as soon as you suggest that she could have had a more Dornish attitude towards extramarital affairs people say you are calling her a slut, even though you are not. How dare she sleep around when she is in a cold, arranged marriage!

Actually, it was because it takes a very special kind of woman to be aroused by being robbed and having at least one of her companions wounded. Whatever.

I am really quite surprised at how the only thing Elia could possibly be guilty of is guess what? Cheating on Prince Charming. Riiiight. She could not have any other flaws that mattered. To make her grey, she must have been cheating, no matter that there isn't the tinies bit if evidence. Iron logic.

[jet199]

I hope Elia did cheat. She deserved to have some fun and love in her life. Poor girl, stuck in the Red Keep with Scary Aerys, toddler Viserys and married to poefaced prince Shergar while her closest brother is exiled and the rest if her family fail at playing the game of thrones as per usual. Elia is described as smart and witty not really something most Targs can even understand let alone appreciate.

[DrunkSister]

Actually, it was because it takes a very special kind of woman to be aroused by being robbed and having at least one of her companions wounded. Whatever.

I am really quite surprised at how the only thing Elia could possibly be guilty of is guess what? Cheating on Prince Charming. Riiiight. She could not have any other flaws that mattered. To make her grey, she must have been cheating, no matter that there isn't the tinies bit if evidence. Iron logic.

I have said that I don't believe it happened so what 'iron logic' you are referring to?

You have no reason to think I was referring to the stolen kiss at all. Rhaegar is not prince charming. There is no reason for Elia to be considered guilty. It would not be a flaw. It would not make her grey.

*foot tapping*

[Mayura]

If I am not mistaking it is stated in the books that while Oberyn felt relatively free to go from flower to flower like a little butterfly, Elia didn't share his views. It of course doesn't mean she didn't have a lover, but I think it means she wasn't as "open" to the idea of having several partners than Oberyn or Arianne are for example.

However, knowing that it is a fact Rhaegar and Elia's wedding was a political match and it was "not a love match", it is not unconceivable that Elia had a lover. It is actually quite probable. If you think about it, could any of you, any of us, feel comfortable in a life without true love, sharing a life with someone who's good looking and who is a friend but who will never be "the one". I guess it was the same thing for Elia and for Rhaegar. They were friends but not in love with each other. And I doubt anyone can happily live such a life...

If we look at the evidence of another marriage without love: Robert cheated on Cersei, Cersei cheated on Robert, it is hinted Stannis is cheating on Selyse with Mel, Renly was married to Marg but spent time in bed with Loras and so on. So I don't understand why it would be so "impossible" or "surprising" that Elia would have cheated on Rhaegar or why it would make it so disgusting that Rhaegar cheated on Elia. They didn't love each other and they were together because of a duty their parents imposed on them and they did what was expected of them: they gave heirs to the throne. What they did on the side was technically nobody's business ;-)

As for Arthur Dayne, it is not impossible either, we know Elia and Oberyn went through Starfall when they were younger hence they had met Arthur and Ashara previously. Then, when Elia is married to Rhaegar, it is Arthur's sister who is brought from Starfall to be Elia's companion. Of course, it could have been because Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend so he wanted his sister to be with Elia. But anyway even though it isn't supported by a lot of textual evidences at all (or by none some would say), it is still not impossible for Dayne to have been Elia's lover.

The only down side of this theory, in my opinion, is that Dayne was one of the KG who helped Rhaegar escape with Lyanna. I fail to see why Dayne would willingly endanger Elia's position if he loved her so.

[DrunkSister]

So I don't understand why it would be so "impossible" or "surprising" that Elia would have cheated on Rhaegar or why it would make it so disgusting that Rhaegar cheated on Elia. They didn't love each other and they were together because of a duty their parents imposed on them and they did what was expected of them: they gave heirs to the throne. What they did on the side was technically nobody's business ;-)

This is why I don't get the 'you are trying to make Elia look bad in order to excuse what Rhaegar did to her' argument. How would it make her look bad? Why would it justify what Rhaegar did?

[Anath]

Who, exactly, finds it disgusting that Rhaegar cheated on Elia? Was he under any obligation to love her and be faithful to her?

[Mayura]

This is why I don't get the 'you are trying to make Elia look bad in order to excuse what Rhaegar did to her' argument. How would it make her look bad? Why would it justify what Rhaegar did?

Yeah I don't think this theory is there to make anyone look bad or anyone else look better. I mean nearly everyone in this serie of books had an affair... Rhaegar had an affair with Lyanna (and presumably she is the only one he had, as we have not been told otherwise?) and whether Elia did or did not have an affair will not make Rhaegar look better or Elia look worse. It would just, imo, make her look "normal".

I fail to see why, knowing her marriage with Rhaegar was just "cordial" but without love, Elia the character could not have had her very own lover. Maybe she was just satisfied with taking care of her children and not having anyone in her life, maybe she had a lover. But the thought of Elia of Dorne having her own private life and her own true love seems logical to me.

I am just not sure it was with Arthur Dayne but to me it is still more plausible than the theory that states Dayne is alive in the swamps...

Who, exactly, finds it disgusting that Rhaegar cheated on Elia? Was he under any obligation to love her and be faithful to her?

Well you can read in this thread and others that some users think Rhaegar was an aweful person for cheating on Elia ("with a 16 yo girl how did he daaaare doing that to his loving wife!!!!"). But... Anyone who has read these books knows that extra-marital adventures are quite widespread and "normalised", even for Kings and Princes. The only difference about Rhaegar's love story is that it lead to havoc.

[Roddy the Ruin]

Who, exactly, finds it disgusting that Rhaegar cheated on Elia? Was he under any obligation to love her and be faithful to her?

They were both under no obligation to love or be "faithful" to each other. I use faithful loosely as they never actually loved each other. But the difference is in this case, that Elia never publicly humiliated Rhaegar with her affair (if she did actually have one).

[Roddy the Ruin]

I am just not sure it was with Arthur Dayne but to me it is still more plausible than the theory that states Dayne is alive in the swamps...

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